Star Wars: The Force Awakens Discussion (HERE THERE BE SPOILERS)
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Yeah, there are just too many variables out of his control. Contrary to what Legends decided, having Palpatine plan every step of the movies and every one followed his expectations is highly unrealistic. Also, assuming that Palatine wanted Kenobi to find the clones when he did, you're forced to ignore all the evidence that the assassination attempt was real and that Jango Fett had no motivation to be traced.
Now, did Palpatine want the clones found eventually? Oh, yes. But I don't see how the movie's version could've been the plan he had in mind.
I don't think Palpatine planned for Ob-Wan to find them that way, but I think that he used it to his advantage. One of the reasons that I like AOTC is the fact that it showcases Palpatine as a master manipulator with a specific end goal. I think it shows him working situations and circumstances to his best advantage in the most realistic way.
No, I just can't be arsed to go through the whole plot of the movie for your benefit.
The premise of the question is flawed. Someone will show up because Palpatine will make sure of it. If you actaulyl pay attention, almost none of his plans go off without a hitch, but he is *very* good at adapting to changing circumstances and has contingencies and plans within plans.
But OK, if you're determined to be dense: if by some galaxy shattering chain of events somehow prevents all of that, then they just sit there with a million and a half Jangos and no place to send them. Maybe they sell them to the highest bidder, maybe they buy a really big woodchipper and go into the fertiliser business.
But it's a moronic question. You may as well ask "what if the Rebels never managed to steal the Death Star plans." or "what if Obi Wan didn't show up to chase off the Sand People?" The story doesn't happen, that's what.
As I said, he's indirectly behind the attempts on Padme's life and he personally and specifically asked for Obi Wan to be her bodyguard. After the second attempt he flat out orders Padme to accept Anakin as her personal guard while Obi Wan went off investigating.
That's two direct and one indirect intervention to set things on course. He couldn't have been more involved in events if he tried.
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Oh yeah, he definitely took advantage of the situation once things started.
Sure he did that, but that doesn't mean he totally plotted out every step that they took.
No, show me where I said "he totally plotted out every step that they took". You can't, because I didn't.
There's a difference between that and what I actually said which was that he manipulated events at just about every interval. I even pointed out specific instances where he was explicitly interfering (not just implicitly) and their direct cause/effect relationship.
How is this such a difficult concept to accept? He's a manipulator, it's more or less all he does. Hell, going all they way back to RotJ almost of his lines are about is how things are or are not going according to his plans.
There's a difference between that and what I actually said which was that he manipulated events at just about every interval. I even pointed out specific instances where he was explicitly interfering (not just implicitly) and their direct cause/effect relationship.
How is this such a difficult concept to accept? He's a manipulator, it's more or less all he does. Hell, going all they way back to RotJ almost of his lines are about is how things are or are not going according to his plans.
Let us assume that Kenobi was not meant to find the Clone Army when he did. What was Palpatine's plan from what we can see? He was setting up to get the Military Creation Act passed by either having Padme killed or removed from the planet at the time of the vote. The act would likely pass due to the threat of the Seperatists and Padme being absent.
After this, either Dooku announces his huge Droid Armies to the galaxy to counter the Military Creation Act, or Palpatine suggests options on creating a large army and the topic of Kamino comes up, and the rumor of the Jedi creating a army in secret causes more distrust from the Jedi. The Jedi are sent to pick up their new Army under orders from the Republic, and the war starts a few months to a year later than it does. Things still progress. The Jedi fall, Anakin turns to the Dark Side, and the Republic ends. Sith rule in their place.
After this, either Dooku announces his huge Droid Armies to the galaxy to counter the Military Creation Act, or Palpatine suggests options on creating a large army and the topic of Kamino comes up, and the rumor of the Jedi creating a army in secret causes more distrust from the Jedi. The Jedi are sent to pick up their new Army under orders from the Republic, and the war starts a few months to a year later than it does. Things still progress. The Jedi fall, Anakin turns to the Dark Side, and the Republic ends. Sith rule in their place.
^For my way of thinking, Jango is still the key piece that makes me think putting Kenobi on the trail was deliberate.
Jango himself may not have even known that's what he was doing. Indeed his reaction to Kenobi on Kamino certainly indicates he didn't expect to see him and it's just like the Sith to keep their pawns in the dark.
I can see a scenario where Tyranus gave him the saber dart, maybe under the pretence that he's had it coated with a rare toxin that kills Clawdites instantly. Then gives him specific instructions to use it on Zam if the she fails and the Jedi catch up to her. Or use it to kill her either way and tie up a loose end, knowing the Jedi will find the body and trace the dart back to Kamino sooner or later.
Another point: it seems likely that the first attempt on Padme deliberately failed. Palpatine would probably have known about the security arrangements and use of a decoy and had Jango & Zam bomb the wrong ship on purpose.
After all Palpatine didn't need Padme dead, just out of the way for the vote. She'd serve him better alive as a means to tempt Anakin to the dark side. So it follows that if the first attempt was designed to fail, why not the second? He practically ordered the council to assign Kenobi and Skywalker as her protection and them being there all but guarantees she'll survive.
Jango himself may not have even known that's what he was doing. Indeed his reaction to Kenobi on Kamino certainly indicates he didn't expect to see him and it's just like the Sith to keep their pawns in the dark.
I can see a scenario where Tyranus gave him the saber dart, maybe under the pretence that he's had it coated with a rare toxin that kills Clawdites instantly. Then gives him specific instructions to use it on Zam if the she fails and the Jedi catch up to her. Or use it to kill her either way and tie up a loose end, knowing the Jedi will find the body and trace the dart back to Kamino sooner or later.
Another point: it seems likely that the first attempt on Padme deliberately failed. Palpatine would probably have known about the security arrangements and use of a decoy and had Jango & Zam bomb the wrong ship on purpose.
After all Palpatine didn't need Padme dead, just out of the way for the vote. She'd serve him better alive as a means to tempt Anakin to the dark side. So it follows that if the first attempt was designed to fail, why not the second? He practically ordered the council to assign Kenobi and Skywalker as her protection and them being there all but guarantees she'll survive.
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For what it's worth, the Legends continuity worked with the scenario that Jango was not trying to leave a trail. I still think that the idea that Jango was supposed to bring Obi-Wan when he did doesn't make that much sense. It depends on too many coincidences and stuff going just right that Jango couldn't control. Also, the movie never suggests that idea itself.
Actually I'd say the inherent coincidences make more sense when you look at events with an eye towards certain things being planned.
For example: Jango leads Kenobi back to Geonisis just in time to witness a treaty negotiation between the Seperatists and the commerce guilds. Coincidence, or did Dooku order him back specifically to make sure the Republic found out, right when Palpatine needed a crisis to push through an emergency powers vote? Anakin's mother just happens to be kidnapped and tortured right when Palpatine has made sure he's alone with Padme. Coincidence, or was the kidnapping arranged?
For example: Jango leads Kenobi back to Geonisis just in time to witness a treaty negotiation between the Seperatists and the commerce guilds. Coincidence, or did Dooku order him back specifically to make sure the Republic found out, right when Palpatine needed a crisis to push through an emergency powers vote? Anakin's mother just happens to be kidnapped and tortured right when Palpatine has made sure he's alone with Padme. Coincidence, or was the kidnapping arranged?
No, you just won't answer the question, because the answer to the question contradicts your position. No one is asking you to "go through the whole plot of the movie" or any other such nonsense.
If found unanswerable, the answer to the question "What difference does it make?" is... wait for it...
It doesn't make any difference.
Assuming the conclusion.
This sounds pretty funny coming from someone arguing the position that what we see on screen in the film must have been planned by Palpatine. You're unwilling to consider the possibility that what we see play out in the film is not, in fact, the plan but rather a manifestation of the "changing circumstances" spoken of in the above.
No, there's another ( fairly obvious ) option that for some reason you're not even considering.
...Would it help if I got out and pushed?
That's a moronic attempt to escape the point being made by the question. The situations are not comparable. If Obi-Wan doesn't show up to chase off the Sandpeople, we can be reasonably certain that Luke's outcome is not the same.
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^Yeah, because the other 80-odd pages of this thread weren't about TFA at all, were they?
That's how conversation works mate. Occasionally the topic wanders a little. But if we must artificially find something to talk about: I'm pretty sure I've spotted an easter egg during the Jakku escape scene. I have no proof because I can't be arsed to screen shot it, but I'm pretty sure the original Millenium Falcon concept model is seen parked on the Niima Outpost landing field. Not the one that had it's head switched out to become the Blockade Runner, the earlier one that looks like a bunch of little white tubes all glued together (the one at the top of the first image here.)
That's how conversation works mate. Occasionally the topic wanders a little. But if we must artificially find something to talk about: I'm pretty sure I've spotted an easter egg during the Jakku escape scene. I have no proof because I can't be arsed to screen shot it, but I'm pretty sure the original Millenium Falcon concept model is seen parked on the Niima Outpost landing field. Not the one that had it's head switched out to become the Blockade Runner, the earlier one that looks like a bunch of little white tubes all glued together (the one at the top of the first image here.)
