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Star Wars: The Force Awakens Discussion (HERE THERE BE SPOILERS)

So....?


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It honestly never crossed my mind that Jango Fett and Zam Wessel weren't really trying to kill Padme. I was always under the impression that the whole thing was an attempt to get revenge for the events of TPM for the Nemoidians.

Killing Padme was certainly the intent, but as with most of Palpatine's plots, there were plots within plots.
Consider for a second that Palpatine knew Obi Wan and Anakin were guarding her (it was his idea after all) so there was a fairly good chance they'd be able to thwart the attempt. But, even if by chance it did succeed, they may still have have chased down Zam and things would have played out more or less the same as they did (with the added bonus of Anakin being grief stricken and furious with himself for letting Padme die.)
We can't know for sure what the provision would have been had Zam gotten away, but it doesn't take a huge amount of imagination to suppose how an alternate trail could be laid, or flat out bypassed with another move. Indeed, the mere fact that Jango subcontracted Zam for the hit should tell you a lot right there. She was intentionally set-up as bait for the Jedi. Her purpose was to die with an Kaminoan sabre dart in her throat.

Remember that Palpatine's priorities here are 1) initiating the clone wars and 2) continue pushing Anakin towards the dark path. Keeping Nute Gunray happy is barely a tertiary concern. Worse case scenario, if he becomes intransigent or obstructive of Palpatine's plans then it would be a simple thing to have him eliminated and replaced with one who is more pliable.

As it turns out, it wasn't necessary to kill Padme (yet) because Gunray's hand was forced when Obi Wan reported back and the clones invaded Geonosis.

I just meant that the details of Anakin's origins don't have a direct impact on what happens in the movies. All we really needed to know was that he was an immaculate conception, the specific details don't really change the events of the movies. All the reveal would have done was maybe add a bit of a twist, but unless Anakin found out, which we know he didn't, everything would have still played out exactly the same.

Well yes and no. The explanation for what all that was about never came to the forefront again, but it was still a major motivator for Qui Gon to free him and take him back to Coruscant. When he asked Shmi who the father was, had she replied "my dead husband" or something similar then he would probably assumed Anakin was just an above average force user and while he'd probably still have tried to free him, he wouldn't with his dying breath have made Obi Wan promise to train the boy in his stead. That would most assuredly have changed how things played out.
 
I didn't mean the fact that Anakin was an immaculate conception wasn't important, I just meant that we didn't need all of the details about how he came to be. All we needed to know was that he didn't have a father, anything beyond that was extra secondary detail.
 
I think the reason the lack of explanation bothers me so much is the fact that Anakin's conception is considered unique, as is his midi-clorian count. And, it's only around Anakin, or about Anakin, that the prophecy of balance to the Force is discussed.

So, while I don't need the mechanics of exactly how his conception works, how midi-clorians work, how Force Ghosts work, etc, the way the PT emphasizes these elements brings them to the forefront and makes them important. So, while I don't mind a basic explanation, I don't really feel like the films explicate on them in a way that is substantial, especially given the prominence of these themes, and the lack of further explanation in future films.

Now, before I get lambasted for wanting nothing but exposition, that's not what I'm asking for. But, it feels like these things are important, but don't merit any explanation. So, while I can somewhat enjoy the PT on a very basic level, it's repeat viewings that drag it down.
 
By "close to loosing it" I assume you meant that time he asked the temple droids and they came up dry and the the very next person he spoke to knew exactly what it was? Yeah, that's not exactly a masterful stroke of investigative deduction. One could easily argue that Jango knew full well that anyone who has travelled the outer rim out past Rishi would have at least an idea of where it came from and it wouldn't take the Jedi long to consult someone with some actual experience in the underworld. Or maybe he just underestimated their over-reliance on their archives.
Either way it didn't take Kenobi long at all. Like, less that 12 hours.

I don't know. From the Dex scene, I got the impression that it was really obscure knowledge. Or maybe Fett got sloppy in his haste (also, why kill Zam if he wanted the Jedi to figure out who he was?)? Given that the lead took Kenobi to Kamino really early, like before the CIS was set in stone, I don't think that it makes much sense for it to be deliberate.

If you don't want to leave a trail then you don't leave evidence that specifically leads back to your point of origin. If Jango had used say a Rodian weapon instead, bought of the black market on Hutta, where exactly would that have gotten Obi Wan if he traced it to Rodia? Nowhere, that's where.

Again, literally any other weapon would have sufficed and yet to chose to use a Kamino dart.

See above. Also remember that Kamino is really below the radar.



Like I said it's a theory and not necessarily one I buy into. For me though the part that makes me think it has some credence is 1) the timing and 2) they killed everyone else and kept her alive and in pain why exactly? Sidious is more than capable of working through intermediaries, or even showing up in person and terrorising that tribe into doing his bidding.

Also note this is a tactic we've seen before, with Vader and Han on Cloud City. It's far from airtight, but I'd hardly call it irrational.

The Tuskans don't seem like the types to just roll over, even to a superior outsider. I think the evidence suggests that the Jedi finding about the clones when they did was not when Palpatine planned, forcing him to up his timetable.



Wrong treaty. We're talking about AotC. ;)

Which treaty? The Military Creation Act?

Anyway, for the sake of argument I think Palpatine's plan with Naboo was to tie the case up in the courts indefinitely and ride the sympathy vote for his suffering people right into office. After that I don't think he cared much what the Federation did to his world, but it would probably get his administration off to a good start if he was seen to swiftly deal with this corruption.

What threw a hydrospanner into the works was Padme's insistence on returning. If she won the people's freedom then it ran the risk that she'd get all the glory instead of him. Hence the order to wipe them all out.

Good thinking.


That's not a very good excuse in this context because as you say, it is a movie and we the audience see the same guy working both sides right in front of the protagonists. That makes them look dense. Besides, you can either argue it in-universe or out, you can't have it both ways. ;)

What's realistic in a movie isn't always what's realistic in the real world. Besides, Fett was always presented as a hired hand and known to be a bounty hunter. Pretty easy to assume he's just for the highest bidder, or contracted for the Separatists on the side with his Kamino job.



Based on what evidence? The testimony of other Jedi? Second hand accounts of things Dooku said to Obi Wan? The words of a half starved, utterly crazy prisoner of the Pykes? The only people who could corroborate any of this were currently on Mustafar and themselves wanted criminals. Hardly credible witnesses in the eyes of the senate.

I was thinking out loud. (Come to think of it, your explanation would add another reason that Windu decides they can't take Palpatine alive.)
 
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I think the reason the lack of explanation bothers me so much is the fact that Anakin's conception is considered unique, as is his midi-clorian count. And, it's only around Anakin, or about Anakin, that the prophecy of balance to the Force is discussed.

So, while I don't need the mechanics of exactly how his conception works, how midi-clorians work, how Force Ghosts work, etc, the way the PT emphasizes these elements brings them to the forefront and makes them important. So, while I don't mind a basic explanation, I don't really feel like the films explicate on them in a way that is substantial, especially given the prominence of these themes, and the lack of further explanation in future films.

Now, before I get lambasted for wanting nothing but exposition, that's not what I'm asking for. But, it feels like these things are important, but don't merit any explanation. So, while I can somewhat enjoy the PT on a very basic level, it's repeat viewings that drag it down.

You're not wrong, the movies did a poor job of contextualising some of the concepts it introduced, but it seems as though the priority was in making an exciting adventure movie, not an intricately layered thought piece.
That some of this is better clarified on and continues to be elaborated on in other media is more a consolation than a testament to the original movies. IMO the fault was in the seemingly half-in/half-out approach Lucas took. Both giving too much and not enough information on the concepts he was utilising.

I don't know. From the Dex scene, I got the impression that it was really obscure knowledge. Or maybe Fett got sloppy in his haste (also, why kill Zam if he wanted the Jedi to figure out who he was?)? Given that the lead took Kenobi to Kamino really early, like before the CIS was set in stone, I don't think that it makes much sense for it to be deliberate.

In a world of blasters, he killed her right in front of two Jedi with a projectile. Not just any projectile, but one specific to the world he was hiding out on. Then hung around long enough for them to get a good look at his distinctive armour. If you can't see that as intentionally leaving a trail then nothing else I say will convince you.

As for Dex, the man was hardly privy to arcane knowledge beyond the ken of normal folk. He was a well travelled old prospector, or trader or whatever he was before he retired.

Also remember that it wasn't that while Kamino was off the beaten track, it wasn't that it was massively obscure but that references too it were deliberately erased from the Jedi archives. And again, Kenobi didn't exactly have to go far to rectify that. Like within a few minutes flight time of the temple.
He probably could have gotten the same information from thousands of such individuals on Coruscant alone. It's not that they were privy to a secret, it's just that they know the less travelled systems of the outer rim. The Kaminoans were discrete but hardly isolationist. They seem to base their economy on providing their services to any that can afford them. That doesn't happen if no one knows you exist. Were clearly aware of the Jedi and under the impression that what they were doing was directly for the high council.

The Tuskans don't seem like the types to just roll over, even to a superior outsider. I think the evidence suggests that the Jedi finding about the clones when they did was not when Palpatine planned, forcing him to up his timetable.

They ran away when Kenobi yelled at them. Clearly they can be intimidated.

Which treaty? The Military Creation Act?

The one between the Commerce Guilds and the Confederacy of Independent Systems Parliament. That's what we saw Dooku negotiating on Geonosis; it was a business deal to provide arms and equipment for the fledgling nation and a pledge of neutrality in the coming war. That's why in TCW you see the Trade Federation and others still doing business with the Republic.

What's realistic in a movie isn't always what's realistic in the real world. Besides, Fett was always presented as a hired hand and known to be a bounty hunter. Pretty easy to assume he's just for the highest bidder, or contracted for the Separatists on the side with his Kamino job.

Again you can't have it both ways. You can't claim "it's a movie so it doesn't have to make sense" while at the same time saying "he's the best bounty hunter in the galaxy, everyone hires him!" It's a fallacy.

The in-universe argument doesn't work on it's own either. That he'd quite literally go straight from one end of the conspiracy Kenobi was investigating to the other simply can't be a coincidence. The idea that anyone would see it as such, least of all Kenobi himself is ridiculous on the face of it.

I was thinking out loud. (Come to think of it, your explanation would add another reason that Windu decides they can't take Palpatine alive.)

Which was exactly the trap he set for them. No matter what they did they'd already lost.
Indeed, I suspect that he'd intended to go quietly when they came for him and just sit in a cell and patently watch as the Republic and the Jedi tor each other apart, leaving him free to step in and declare his Empire.
I think attacking them was a spur of the moment thing on his part; he'd already essentially won, he no longer had to hide what he was and I believe he just thought to himself "f*ck it, I'm going to kill these sanctimonious fools and i'm going to enjoy myself doing it!"
I also happen to think that it very nearly backfired. I don't think he threw the fight with Windu and that had Anakin not showed up, Windu really would have cut him down.

It's a shame they don't do the 'Infinities' comics anymore because I'd love to see the "what if Mace Windu killed Palapatine and became the Emperor himself" story. ;)
 
JD said:
I just meant that the details of Anakin's origins don't have a direct impact on what happens in the movies.

So sayeth Lucas...

Reverend said:
Again, that's not what I said

Right...

Basically he said that as much as it may be difficult for older fans to swallow, the Jedi of the prequels are a failing order and to a certain extent, the midichlorians thing is emblematic of that.

All the complaints people have about midichlorian counts and the forbidding of attachment are all intentional flaws in their doctrine.

What I meant to say was that despite all the complaints people have about midi-chlorians counts and the forbidding of attachment being incongruous with what we thought we knew in the OT, they're there as intentional flaws in their doctrine.
:shrug:

Reverend said:
We can't know for sure what the provision would have been had Zam gotten away, but it doesn't take a huge amount of imagination to suppose how an alternate trail could be laid, or flat out bypassed with another move.

That's the problem - it doesn't take a huge amount of imagination to look at the film and assume "literally everything that takes place on screen was planned by Palpatine".

Reverend said:
She was intentionally set-up as bait for the Jedi. Her purpose was to die with an Kaminoan sabre dart in her throat.

If the bomb on the landing pad had succeeded in its purpose, there would have been no need for the kouhuns ( and no Jedi chasing Zam ). Perhaps Jango would have fired a saberdart into the wreckage?

Reverend said:
If he wasn't intentionally leaving behind a trail, then surely he could have killed her with literally anything other than that dart.

If he was intentionally leaving behind a trail, you'd think he wouldn't have reacted the way he did when Obi-Wan showed up.

Reverend said:
It'd be like today if a Catholic bishop tried to arrest and try the head of state of state of a modern democracy for the crime of believing in Zeus.

And if heads of state of state could shoot lightning from their fingertips and do other sorts of magic which would serve as indicators of inherent evil.

Reverend said:
The Kaminoans were discrete

Well, of course they were. Can you imagine if they were just one long continuous Kaminoan?
 
I still don't really see Palpatine and Dooku wanting Obi-Wan to find the Clones, there's just way to much coincidence and luck for it to be planned.
For one thing, if they wanted Obi-Wan or one of the Jedi to find Kamino they wouldn't have hidden it.
Fett did let Obi-Wan and Anakin see him in the armor, but I'm pretty sure he wasn't expecting Obi-Wan to track him down to Kamino, or to just happen to see the armor in his room.
I always assumed he used the dart to kill because he had assumed that the Jedi wouldn't be able to find Kamino since it had been erased form the records. It was purely coincidence that Obi-Wan just happened to know Dex, and that he just happened to recognize the dart.
 
You're not wrong, the movies did a poor job of contextualising some of the concepts it introduced, but it seems as though the priority was in making an exciting adventure movie, not an intricately layered thought piece.
That some of this is better clarified on and continues to be elaborated on in other media is more a consolation than a testament to the original movies. IMO the fault was in the seemingly half-in/half-out approach Lucas took. Both giving too much and not enough information on the concepts he was utilising.
I thin this is evidenced by the fact that that TCW, and Rebels are so popular. There are elements to the PT that warrant deeper exploration. In my opinion, the films themselves missed an opportunity to explore it.



Which was exactly the trap he set for them. No matter what they did they'd already lost.
Indeed, I suspect that he'd intended to go quietly when they came for him and just sit in a cell and patently watch as the Republic and the Jedi tor each other apart, leaving him free to step in and declare his Empire.
I think attacking them was a spur of the moment thing on his part; he'd already essentially won, he no longer had to hide what he was and I believe he just thought to himself "f*ck it, I'm going to kill these sanctimonious fools and i'm going to enjoy myself doing it!"
I also happen to think that it very nearly backfired. I don't think he threw the fight with Windu and that had Anakin not showed up, Windu really would have cut him down.

It's a shame they don't do the 'Infinities' comics anymore because I'd love to see the "what if Mace Windu killed Palapatine and became the Emperor himself" story. ;)
Why does the line "You keep what you kill" feel appropriate at the end of that scene? ;)
 
The Grand Plan required the Republic to "discover" the clone army and rush it to Geonosis to start a war that would ultimately wipe out their ranks. The purpose of Jango trying to "assassinate" Padme was to lure Obi-Wan to Kamino to discover the clone army just in the nick of time for the manufactured crisis on Geonosis to bear fruit.
 
^And leave Jar Jar in charge so he could be easily manipulated into calling for the emergency powers vote.

I still don't really see Palpatine and Dooku wanting Obi-Wan to find the Clones, there's just way to much coincidence and luck for it to be planned.
For one thing, if they wanted Obi-Wan or one of the Jedi to find Kamino they wouldn't have hidden it.

They had to keep it hidden at least until the first batch of clones were ready. Once they were, then they needed the Jedi to find it.

Fett did let Obi-Wan and Anakin see him in the armor, but I'm pretty sure he wasn't expecting Obi-Wan to track him down to Kamino, or to just happen to see the armor in his room.

Maybe not that last part, but as I've already detailed, the saber dart is an obviously intentional clue.

I always assumed he used the dart to kill because he had assumed that the Jedi wouldn't be able to find Kamino since it had been erased form the records. It was purely coincidence that Obi-Wan just happened to know Dex, and that he just happened to recognize the dart.

How likely do you think it is that Dex is the *only* possible way they could have tracked that dart? If it wasn't Dex, then it would have been someone else. It may have taken a little longer, but they'd have figured it out before long. The only reason the temple droids couldn't figure it out is because all reference to Kamino was intentionally wiped from the temple's archives. And the Jedi were arrogant enough to believe that their records are the only ones they need consult.
 
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The Grand Plan required the Republic to "discover" the clone army and rush it to Geonosis to start a war that would ultimately wipe out their ranks. The purpose of Jango trying to "assassinate" Padme was to lure Obi-Wan to Kamino to discover the clone army just in the nick of time for the manufactured crisis on Geonosis to bear fruit.

Do we have any canonical statements about how Palpatine wanted the army found?
 
Do we have any canonical statements about how Palpatine wanted the army found?
It's simple logical deduction. He would hardly want it found *after* he'd had Dooku split the confederate systems away.
Remember this whole situation is being puppeteered by him, even if Kenobi turned out to be slow on the uptake, he would have had a contingency to get things moving in the direction he wanted.
 
How likely do you think it is that Dex is the *only* possible way they could have tracked that dart? If it wasn't Dex, then it would have been someone else. It may have taken a little longer, but they'd have figured it out before long. The only reason the temple droids couldn't figure it out is because all reference to Kamino was intentionally wiped from the temple's archives. And the Jedi were arrogant enough to believe that their records are the only ones they need consult.
I got the impression that Kamino was a fairly unknown planet, and there probably wouldn't be a lot of people who would have been able to recognize it on sight, so it was just pure luck Obi-Wan happened to know somebody who recognized it on sight.
We never really saw anything to indicate that Obi-Wan was specifically pushed to go seek out Dex, so if he hadn't and had gone to someone who didn't know Kamino then he never would have found the clones.

I think Palpatine did want the clones found eventually, but I never really got the impression he was manipulating the specific events in AotC.
The Kaminoan specifically mention they weren't expecting a Jedi so soon, so I have a feeling Palpatine did have a specific timeline in mind that Obi-Wan sped up.
 
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How could anyone think Palpatine wasn't manipulating those events? It's blindingly obvious. His apprentice is leading the separatist movement. He specifically asked that Kenobi be assigned as Padme's bodyguard. The person who paid Zam to attempt to assassinate Padme is himself in the direct employ of his apprentice. He all but told Jar Jar to call for the emergency power amendment. He was pouring honeyed words in Anakin's ear the whole time and personally ordered Padme to go into hiding with him, right when the vote for the military creation act (which she opposed) was coming up.
What more do you want?

As for Kamino: again, it's not well known and a little off the beaten track (beyond the outer rim, about 12 parsecs from the Rishi maze) but it's not like it's smack in the middle of wild space or anything. Indeed Dex himself said "Should be easy to find, even for those droids in your archives. "
If it were an unknown then there wouldn't have been anything in the Jedi archives to erase, no?

Speaking of Dex, knowing him wasn't luck (because there's no such thing as luck), it's the result of spending a decade out in the galaxy training to be a Jedi alongside Qui Gon then another decade out in the galaxy training Anakin. That a long time in which to meet thousands of well travelled and well informed people. Dex was just the first likely candidate he went to and what do you know? He recognised it straight away.

It's also worth noting a couple of things Dex said. First off he didn't say he'd been to Kamino himself, but had seen a dart like that on Subterrel and yet knew where it came from and enough about the Kaminoans to give Obi Wan some advice on their demeanour, their reputation for being "damn good" cloners and their mercantile nature. This means that while they "keep to themselves" they're far from isolationists.

And to cap it all off, the first thing Taun We says to Kenobi when he walks in the door uninvited is "Master Jedi. The Prime Minister has been expecting you...after all these years, we were beginning to think you weren't coming"
They were specifically told a Jedi would show up to take delivery of the clone army.
 
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Reverend said:
He would hardly want it found *after* he'd had Dooku split the confederate systems away.

Why not? What difference does it make?

Reverend said:
Speaking of Dex, knowing him wasn't luck (because there's no such thing as luck

In the TPM novelization, Palpatine believes in "chance", for some reason. Perhaps it's possible to take Obi-Wan too literally?

Reverend said:
And to cap it all off, the first thing Taun We says to Kenobi when he walks in the door uninvited is "Master Jedi. The Prime Minister has been expecting you...after all these years, we were beginning to think you weren't coming"
They were specifically told a Jedi would show up to take delivery of the clone army.

And when a Jedi doesn't show up, what can they be expected to do?
 
Why not? What difference does it make?

Seriously? I think you must have missed *the entire plot of the movie!*

In the TPM novelization, Palpatine believes in "chance", for some reason. Perhaps it's possible to take Obi-Wan too literally?

No, but it is possible to take me too literally. I was being flippant.

And when a Jedi doesn't show up, what can they be expected to do?
A moot point because a Jedi *will* show up, one way or another.
 
I know that Palpatine set up the Seperatist movement and all of that and obviously was trying to get rid of Padme, but I still don't see him setting up Obi-Wan finding the Clones.
 
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