Star Wars: The Force Awakens Discussion (HERE THERE BE SPOILERS)
- Thread starter sttngfan1701d
- Start date
Agreed TBonz. That a whiny emo kid killed Han Solo still irks me. Also its hard to believe that he was Hans son.Yeah, I don't like that the whiny jerk is the son of Han and Leia. Bah.
Hope they had other kids.
Don't get me wrong, I still thought Kylo Ren made for a terrific and interesting villain (and that Driver made him far more than just some "whiny emo kid"). It's just the idea of him being Han and Leia's kid that seems like a huge stretch to me, and that doesn't quite add up.
What it really feels like is probably what it was-- something inserted into the story in order to give Harrison Ford something big and dramatic to do for his final appearance. Regardless of whether it was a plot point that was truly earned or justified, or made sense for the character.
What it really feels like is probably what it was-- something inserted into the story in order to give Harrison Ford something big and dramatic to do for his final appearance. Regardless of whether it was a plot point that was truly earned or justified, or made sense for the character.
There would still be wars in the Galaxy even with balance in the Force. The thing here is that we still have a large number of questions about what the state of the Force is now. Luke is called the Last of the Jedi. The Knights of Ren are something supposedly new under Snoke, who we don't know for sure who or what he is. He could be a Dark Sider that is not a Sith, thus something the Jedi were not accounting for, as they had figured the prophecy would bring balance to the Force with the Sith being destroyed (and the Jedi surviving). But the Sith are gone, and the Jedi of old are gone save for Luke, who could the first of the new Jedi, rather than the last of the old.
Luke starts to train new Jedi. Depending on what "balance" means to the Force, there should logically be a new set of dark siders. If the dark side is the result of imbalance as oppose to a yin-yang thing, than Snoke and the Knights of Ren were something the Jedi did not account for. But since the Sith and Jedi were fighting in the distant past, it seems logical that there will always be a Dark Side group in the Galaxy. However that also means there will always be a Light Side group to counter them. The Knights or Ren, while they have the Force, seem to not be up to Sith standards. Luke's students were not fully trained. So perhaps there was a reason behind the way the Jedi and Sith operated. Always two there are. A master and an apprentice. Both the Jedi and Sith operate this way. The difference being that the Sith remained "only two", while the Jedi multipled with the student becoming a teacher of another student and the old Master taking on another student. Maybe this is where Luke (and perhaps Snoke) went wrong. Teaching a group, when the Force, for whatever reason, is taught better with only two.
Luke starts to train new Jedi. Depending on what "balance" means to the Force, there should logically be a new set of dark siders. If the dark side is the result of imbalance as oppose to a yin-yang thing, than Snoke and the Knights of Ren were something the Jedi did not account for. But since the Sith and Jedi were fighting in the distant past, it seems logical that there will always be a Dark Side group in the Galaxy. However that also means there will always be a Light Side group to counter them. The Knights or Ren, while they have the Force, seem to not be up to Sith standards. Luke's students were not fully trained. So perhaps there was a reason behind the way the Jedi and Sith operated. Always two there are. A master and an apprentice. Both the Jedi and Sith operate this way. The difference being that the Sith remained "only two", while the Jedi multipled with the student becoming a teacher of another student and the old Master taking on another student. Maybe this is where Luke (and perhaps Snoke) went wrong. Teaching a group, when the Force, for whatever reason, is taught better with only two.
Last edited:
Kylo Ren being the son of Han and Leia sort of makes sense to me. The son of a rogue, scoundrel and a pirate with a smartass outlook on the universe for so much of his life and of a Skywalker, and we all know how that gene pool has never been tainted with anything dark and dysfunctional. Han and Leia either did their best but couldn't overcome the downsides of Ben's family history and his strength with the Force or something happened at some point that distracted one or both parents from properly raising and supervising their son.
It's possible they made the unwitting mistake of turning Ben over to Luke's training too early and before he could properly manage and control his emotions and by the time he turned to the Dark Side it was too late for even Luke to do anything. Remember, Ben's grandfather lived, trained and fought in a galaxy surrounded by at least 10,000 other Jedi of all ranks and levels of training and power and even with all of his friends and comrades surrounding him from the day he was freed from slavery and then inducted into the Jedi Order he still fell to the Dark Side and helped hunt down and exterminate the system that had raised, protected and trained him.
If 10,000 Jedi and the love of a woman couldn't keep Anakin Skywalker from falling, I don't know if Han and Leia could have prevented what happened to Ben.
It's possible they made the unwitting mistake of turning Ben over to Luke's training too early and before he could properly manage and control his emotions and by the time he turned to the Dark Side it was too late for even Luke to do anything. Remember, Ben's grandfather lived, trained and fought in a galaxy surrounded by at least 10,000 other Jedi of all ranks and levels of training and power and even with all of his friends and comrades surrounding him from the day he was freed from slavery and then inducted into the Jedi Order he still fell to the Dark Side and helped hunt down and exterminate the system that had raised, protected and trained him.
If 10,000 Jedi and the love of a woman couldn't keep Anakin Skywalker from falling, I don't know if Han and Leia could have prevented what happened to Ben.
Plus, could you imagine being the child of two of the three most famous people in the galaxy, and the most famous guy is your uncle? What sort of pressure to succeed would that put on you? What sort of resentment would you have towards your famous deified parents as you become a snotty teenager?
I'll reiterate a saying that I invoked in another thread. The reason grandparents and grandchildren get along so well: They have a common enemy.
I'm late to the ballgame obviously, but I finally saw it for the first time. I hate movie theaters and wanted to wait as long as possible for the crowds to die down. I was really good about not reading spoilers and genuinely had no knowledge about the movie before going in - perhaps that was part of the problem.
The biggest disappointment for me came from the original characters - Han, Luke, Leia, etc. Partly my fault I guess as I for some reason had the expectation that this was going to be a continuation of the original movies and that the original cast would play a significant part. Instead, it seemed like we got half way through the entire movie before they showed even a single one of them on the screen.
It was nice to see Han, but every line out of his mouth was so stereotypical it was almost as if they were just re-hashing his background for anyone who didn't watch the original trilogy, and it really didn't seem to do anything to further the movie or add to it. And then he gets killed. The entire scene where he gets killed was so absent of any emotion, suspense, or surprise whatsoever, it was a combination roll-eyes / cringe moment. I will admit, there as a big part of me that really really wanted Kylo Ren to take Han up on his offer right then and there and convert to the good side then, even though the way it actually played out was a forgone conclusion at that point and I knew that would never happen. It almost makes the bad scene even worse because it's like they went further and even teased you with what could have actually been an interesting plot development. Instead, we get one of the best characters from all of Star Wars killed off. I was actually expecting Han Solo to not only be in all three movies, but to be a big part of all three, which I guess is probably why I find it so lame having gone this direction.
Luke was a joke. He basically wasn't even in the movie When it comes to Leia, I'm glad that at least one of the original characters had a significant part. It's just a shame that her face looked 83 instead of 63 likely due to her history of chain smoking. There are plenty of women that are still attractive into their 60's, and I was hoping that she was one of them. That was not the case. Her acting didn't come off as particularly amazing either.
Beyond that it would have been nice if Kylo Ren was more of a badass and less of an emo bitch. They could have made him an interesting character that was genuinely conflicted, and that the audience could have at least partially sympathized and identified with. Instead he reminds me of a kid having a temper tantrum at the toy store.
I liked what they did with Finn and Rey, but if this was just supposed to be a movie about them, why even waste that much time on Han, etc in the first place other than to simply deceive and tease those of us who actually thought the original characters were going to be a big part of this movie?
I'm hoping that this is going to be the "Phantom Menace" of the this trilogy, in the sense that the movie mostly sucked and doesn't really stand well on it's own, but could perhaps serve as a decent intro to the trilogy, when viewed together.
The biggest disappointment for me came from the original characters - Han, Luke, Leia, etc. Partly my fault I guess as I for some reason had the expectation that this was going to be a continuation of the original movies and that the original cast would play a significant part. Instead, it seemed like we got half way through the entire movie before they showed even a single one of them on the screen.
It was nice to see Han, but every line out of his mouth was so stereotypical it was almost as if they were just re-hashing his background for anyone who didn't watch the original trilogy, and it really didn't seem to do anything to further the movie or add to it. And then he gets killed. The entire scene where he gets killed was so absent of any emotion, suspense, or surprise whatsoever, it was a combination roll-eyes / cringe moment. I will admit, there as a big part of me that really really wanted Kylo Ren to take Han up on his offer right then and there and convert to the good side then, even though the way it actually played out was a forgone conclusion at that point and I knew that would never happen. It almost makes the bad scene even worse because it's like they went further and even teased you with what could have actually been an interesting plot development. Instead, we get one of the best characters from all of Star Wars killed off. I was actually expecting Han Solo to not only be in all three movies, but to be a big part of all three, which I guess is probably why I find it so lame having gone this direction.
Luke was a joke. He basically wasn't even in the movie
When it comes to Leia, I'm glad that at least one of the original characters had a significant part. It's just a shame that her face looked 83 instead of 63 likely due to her history of chain smoking. There are plenty of women that are still attractive into their 60's, and I was hoping that she was one of them. That was not the case. Her acting didn't come off as particularly amazing either.Beyond that it would have been nice if Kylo Ren was more of a badass and less of an emo bitch. They could have made him an interesting character that was genuinely conflicted, and that the audience could have at least partially sympathized and identified with. Instead he reminds me of a kid having a temper tantrum at the toy store.
I liked what they did with Finn and Rey, but if this was just supposed to be a movie about them, why even waste that much time on Han, etc in the first place other than to simply deceive and tease those of us who actually thought the original characters were going to be a big part of this movie?
I'm hoping that this is going to be the "Phantom Menace" of the this trilogy, in the sense that the movie mostly sucked and doesn't really stand well on it's own, but could perhaps serve as a decent intro to the trilogy, when viewed together.
Well sure, with a lot more buildup and explanation (as I'm assuming was provided in the EU version with Jacen) I can see how the idea might be a very good and plausible one... but the problem for me is the movie just sort of springs it on us, like "Hey guess what, while you were gone Han and Leia not only had a son, but now he's this evil new Darth Vader running around killing people and blowing up planets and helping to rule over half the galaxy!!"
It's a lot to absorb in a very short amount of time, and with very little explanation given about how exactly it all happened. Which just makes the whole thing a bit hard for me to buy in the end.
Before watching the movie, I never ever got a sense that the original trilogy characters were going to "be big part of this movie." Han only had a couple lines in one or two of the trailers. To me, that was not an indication of having a major part in the story. I'm not sure how that could be inferred from the marketing materials surrounding the movie. Time passes on. The old characters have had their day, and they must move aside for the new heroes.
Kor
Kor
Which was a facet that I appreciated about the old characters, save for Luke. Luke feels like a macguffin rather than a character, an object to reach rather than someone participating in the story.
I liked Han's character in TFA far more than I enjoyed in ROTJ or ESB, actually. He felt smoother, less rough around the edges, and a bit more self aware. There was a certain level of self reflection on his part that I think was interesting. His death worked in the story far better than I thought it would.
I was glad that I liked Rey, Poe and Finn. They were the highlight of the film, and interesting characters. Each had their moment, and that was great.
Regardless, I am still annoyed by Ben Solo/Kylo Ren but that doesn't change the fact that he was well done. The fact that I am having an emotional reaction to each of these characters and their stories is a credit to the writers and the actors.
I liked Han's character in TFA far more than I enjoyed in ROTJ or ESB, actually. He felt smoother, less rough around the edges, and a bit more self aware. There was a certain level of self reflection on his part that I think was interesting. His death worked in the story far better than I thought it would.
I was glad that I liked Rey, Poe and Finn. They were the highlight of the film, and interesting characters. Each had their moment, and that was great.
Regardless, I am still annoyed by Ben Solo/Kylo Ren but that doesn't change the fact that he was well done. The fact that I am having an emotional reaction to each of these characters and their stories is a credit to the writers and the actors.
I thought the Han/Ben confrontation and Han's death scene was handled extremely well. Even though I did not want Han to die, I wouldn't have had it any other way.
Not everyone may react well to that scene... but even back when ESB was released, some viewers moaned and groaned and rolled their eyes when Vader said "Obi-Wan never told you what happened to your father..." because they just knew what was coming next, and they thought it was a hackneyed, cliched idea.
Kor
Not everyone may react well to that scene... but even back when ESB was released, some viewers moaned and groaned and rolled their eyes when Vader said "Obi-Wan never told you what happened to your father..." because they just knew what was coming next, and they thought it was a hackneyed, cliched idea.
Kor
Why is that? These movies are big enough to allow older characters to shine. This last movie proved it. If the older characters have had their day then why kill them off and pretty much ruin the happy ending they got? Is it so they can have the new younger characters become the real heroes off of the mistakes of the old? I can see now that all the original human characters are headed for tragedy and it really sucks. After that we will probably have to live through more movies of Rey the perfect and her helpers. Yuck. The good news is that by the time they tragically kill off all the originals I really doubt that these new characters can carry the franchise as strongly. Basically Disney will milk Star Wars and run it into the ground to the point where no one will care anymore.
I'm not really that bothered by the Ben Solo/Kylo Ren reveal. It was always an open fact that this is the first movie in a new trilogy, so I've been assuming all along that we'll more about what happened in one or both of the next two movies.
I really don't think his falling to the Dark Side had anything to do with Han, Leia, or Luke, it was all Snoke. The impression I've gotten is that during his training Ben ended up running into Snoke somewhere, and he manipulated Ben into turning to the Dark Side.
I really don't think his falling to the Dark Side had anything to do with Han, Leia, or Luke, it was all Snoke. The impression I've gotten is that during his training Ben ended up running into Snoke somewhere, and he manipulated Ben into turning to the Dark Side.
The living Force can be fairly represented by a yin-yang analogy ( significantly, the yin-yang symbol appears in AOTC and TCW ), but the balance of the Force is not the balance of the Force-users, as Force-users are not the same thing as the Force.
And the Force can be in balance with a hundred Jedi and no Sith Lords in existence. It was explained in a Star Wars documentary that I watched on YouTube that bringing balance to the Force just meant that the side that had been receding for decades or even generations (in this case, the light side since the Old Republic had been suffering from increasing corruption and growing internal conflict and instability even before Palpatine was elected Supreme Chancellor and began his slow rise to absolute power) and the acts of Anakin Skywalker and his son brought that light back into the foreground of galactic affairs with the defeat of the Galactic Empire, the death of the Emperor and the vanquishing of the Sith Lords.
I wish I understood the distaste for the new leads, especially Rey, but I'll chalk that up to different perspectives.
While I miss the happy ending of ROTJ, as someone pointed out (rather well, despite my misgivings) peace doesn't last forever. It simply doesn't, even in Star Wars. There is always some conflict within the Republic, either external (Sith Empire, Separatists) or internal (whatever Jedi are doing). The idea that Han, Luke and Leia had some missteps owes more to their youth than to their accomplishments. Conflict, unfortunately, was inevitable.
I think the new mains are more than capable of carrying the next two films. I think there will be an interesting dynamic growing between the three because they are not cemented like Luke, Leia and Han by the end of Episode IV. Their victory is not assured, and there is still a lot of doubt. However, I have no doubt that they can carry this series.
As for Disney, I didn't expect anything less, and it doesn't bother me. The moment it bothers me the direction that Star Wars is going, I stop buying it. I did it with Clone Wars (the film and then the series) and that's the best way, in my opinion.
While Rey, Finn and Poe are considered the three leading characters, there was no interaction at all between Rey and Poe in the movie.
In the novelization, there was a brief encounter and subtle hint at attraction, which may foreshadow some romantic developments in the future.
Also, "The Force" being in balance does not mean that light and darkness exist equally. "The Force" exists in nature purely in its light form. The dark side is a perversion and corruption of that balance.
Kor
In the novelization, there was a brief encounter and subtle hint at attraction, which may foreshadow some romantic developments in the future.
Also, "The Force" being in balance does not mean that light and darkness exist equally. "The Force" exists in nature purely in its light form. The dark side is a perversion and corruption of that balance.
Kor
Last edited:
