Star Wars: The Force Awakens Discussion (HERE THERE BE SPOILERS)

[Set Harth]

If I recall, Yoda was let in of the secret near the end of the Clone Wars and presented it as new info to Obi-Wan in ROTS, so I would buy that that Vader didn't know about it.

But that's the point: the Jedi didn't know about it either, until Qui-Gon, and that's why Vader didn't know about it.

Scripts are not always the most accurate depictions of the story, given ad libbing, post-production editing, changes of premises in later movies, etc. So that idea, while the intent at the time, may not be the case now.

No later movie came out to establish the premise "Anakin disappeared"; in fact, if they had really wanted to push that idea in the movies, they had ( in theory ) the opportunity to do so when they released the Special Edition... or when they released the DVD... or when they released the Blu-ray. But they declined to do so, for some reason.

"This little scene where he burns his father's body, it wasn't originally in the script." - Lucas, ROTJ DVD commentary, released in 2004

So the intent in 2004 appears to match 1983.

I can think of an excellent and obvious reason why Luke would put Vader on the pyre with his mask on: To conceal Vader's true identity from all the witnesses who might be watching.

I can think of a better reason: not thinking the kids in the audience needed to see the gruesome sight of the flesh on Anakin's face burning up and melting off, etc.

And, yes, I have no doubt that I will here a lot of examples of the Jedi making efforts to unravel the mysteries of the Sith and expose the plot to destroy the Republic. I am aware of the novels, the Clone Wars, etc. I'm strictly talking about the films, and in the films it feels like the Jedi stumble their way through.

There are supposed to be three years between the movies in question. Three years full of the characters doing things that we don't get to see. We only get allusion in ROTS to the fact that they have been looking for Sidious during that time. "Didn't see it, didn't happen" is generally fallacious and doesn't work in a series with significant time gaps.

 

[fireproof78]

Don't explain the force ghosts and people complain it's too vague and magical.

Tell people about midichlorians and all of a sudden it's ruining the mystery of the force with too much explanation.

Make up your minds!

Don't tell me you're going to explain it and then don't explain it!

 

[WebLurker]

It needed 5 more minutes. As I said, the novel handled a brief moment between Yoda and Qui-Gon in 1 page. That's a minute of dialog if done right. I don't need an entire film or the "focus of the story" to be Force Ghost, but you don't tease that it will be explained and then shrug it off.

If it bothered you, then fair enough.

To use an example that you bring up about Anakin's lightsaber skills-Obi-Wan mention's in passing that Anakin needed to practice more with his lightsaber, indicating that he does already practice. It's a brief line but illustrates Anakin's training.

Okay. (I have noticed in discussions of stuff like this that different people have different standards how how much explanation/set-up/etc. is needed, so I think it's kind of a your mileage may vary.)

Yes, but the Jedi treat it has routine to them, but it isn't routine to the audience. If you're going to add to the lore

Afraid I'm having trouble reading what you're saying, and missing the point.

Impotent may be a strong word, but they also don't feel very proactive or successful in their efforts.

Yes, they are supposed to end up falling as Palpatine outmaneuvers them but it feels very much like they fail constantly, or Jedi die in their failed attempts. It doesn't generate a lot of sympathy or motivation to celebrate them if I don't really feel like they can succeed.

And, yes, I have no doubt that I will here a lot of examples of the Jedi making efforts to unravel the mysteries of the Sith and expose the plot to destroy the Republic. I am aware of the novels, the Clone Wars, etc. I'm strictly talking about the films, and in the films it feels like the Jedi stumble their way through. So, impotent? Maybe not, but certainly not proactive.

I kind of took the idea to be that the Sith dropped off the radar after TMP, so there wasn't much of a trail to follow. So, it wasn't until ATOC that the puzzle pieces began being revealed, but the Clone Wars divided their attention, so they weren't able to piece anything together until it was too late. (We see them also dismissing Dooku's claims that the Senate is under Sith control as lies, so they clearly didn't being investigating Palpatine until after the war was in full swing.

This is one of the reasons I like ATOC so much (my favorite prequel film, hands down). It feels like Obi-Wan is pulling the pieces together and has moment of clarity. And then, it gets sidelined by the war.

ATOC is actually my least favorite prequel (I like ROTS the best) and my least favorite Star Wars movie. I find that it drags the most. I'm not a big fan of the love story scenes (I'm okay with the them being together in general, but I think only a few of those work). I think it also has some of the specific instances of the worst lines and deliveries in the series.

On the other hand, I do like the story with Obi-Wan investigating the bounty hunter. That was really cool. The Geonosis scenes were also great. So, I guess it's the most mixed bag for me.

"Where this Clone Army come from?" "Don't know." "Let's use it anyway."

I took it as a part "they needed it now and didn't have an option to get another army" and them initially assuming that the late Sifo-Dyas had ordered the army without permission, and that was all there was. Not exactly the worse assumption, since I don't recall any other real loose ends from the movie.

There are great bones of a story in the PT, but they get sidelined by weird details and thin characters. It just doesn't feel like real people reacting in a real situation. Like I said before, I like ATOC, and I like Obi-Wan in it, and I like Padme in TPM, but there isn't enough meat there to really satisfy the story that is attempting to be told.

Fair enough.

 

[fireproof78]

If it bothered you, then fair enough.

Thanks, though I'm sure I'll be painted as a GL hated now

Okay. (I have noticed in discussions of stuff like this that different people have different standards how how much explanation/set-up/etc. is needed, so I think it's kind of a your mileage may vary.)

I can be entertained by weird films, so my standards are probably not the best. But, it feels like there are a lot of loose ends that are just left out there in the PT and are not followed up on in the films. Instead, they get followed up on in the CW or the books or what-have-you. Which is fine for franchise building but really doesn't tell a good story.

Afraid I'm having trouble reading what you're saying, and missing the point.

Let me see if I can explain this better. There are aspects of Jedi lore that are revealed in the PT that hadn't been seen before. Fair enough, that's part of a prequel is to see facets of a world or characters we had not seen or realized their meaning.

However, when introducing something new to the audience a small explanation can be helpful because otherwise it feels like change for the sake of change. Change is uncomfortable which means the storyteller has to take small moments to reassure the audience that it's ok. The OT did this through Han Solo and Luke Skywalker. Han was the skeptic and served as the "This is nonsense" voice to the more fantastic elements and it allows the characters to explore ideas of why it's not nonsense. Luke is our avatar in this new world and lets us get to know it through him. Again, it's a way of engaging the audience without talking down to them.

In the PT, we don't have those characters. Everything is treated as routine, everyday, nothing new, and taken for granted that everyone knows it. But, if Force Ghosting is something relatively new, and Qui-Gon doesn't do it, but still can speak through the Force, then that's an addition that might warrant explanation.

I kind of took the idea to be that the Sith dropped off the radar after TMP, so there wasn't much of a trail to follow. So, it wasn't until ATOC that the puzzle pieces began being revealed, but the Clone Wars divided their attention, so they weren't able to piece anything together until it was too late. (We see them also dismissing Dooku's claims that the Senate is under Sith control as lies, so they clearly didn't being investigating Palpatine until after the war was in full swing.

That's a fair idea, but the Jedi know that there are always two. So, if the leads went cold but the Dooku talks about the Sith again why wouldn't they try to follow it?

It just feels like the Jedi are not very proactive in trying to guard the galaxy.

ATOC is actually my least favorite prequel (I like ROTS the best) and my least favorite Star Wars movie. I find that it drags the most. I'm not a big fan of the love story scenes (I'm okay with the them being together in general, but I think only a few of those work). I think it also has some of the specific instances of the worst lines and deliveries in the series.

On the other hand, I do like the story with Obi-Wan investigating the bounty hunter. That was really cool. The Geonosis scenes were also great. So, I guess it's the most mixed bag for me.

It's funny because I can't stand ROTS in film form. I love the book the film just is so dark and rushed and frustrating that I can't enjoy it. I think there are a handful of moments, such as the opening third of the film that I like, but the rest is down hill. The love scenes are mixed, with the picnic scene being the most cringe-worthy to me. But the rest I can live with. I don't blame anyone for not liking them though.

I took it as a part "they needed it now and didn't have an option to get another army" and them initially assuming that the late Sifo-Dyas had ordered the army without permission, and that was all there was. Not exactly the worse assumption, since I don't recall any other real loose ends from the movie.

Except for who Sifo-Dyas was and why did he order a clone army? That's a bit of a weird loose end.

 

[Reverend]

I caught a bit of an interview of Dave Filloni the other day and he said something that has a little bearing on this. Basically he said that as much as it may be difficult for older fans to swallow, the Jedi of the prequels are a failing order and to a certain extent, the midichlorians thing is emblematic of that. Now midichlorians are a real thing, but the Jedi had become too focused on the science of the force, dogmatic, inflexible and arrogant: "If an item does not appear in our records, it does not exist!" "Impossible! The Sith have been extinct for a millennium." "I do not believe they could have returned without us knowing."
They've lost sight of some of the deeper mysteries of the force and become too set in their ways. Even Yoda in tESB still has some of this "He is too old! Too old to begin the training...."

So is it really that had to believe that over a thousand generations, they've forgotten some things and it took a borderline renegade like Qui Gon to go digging for the deeper mysteries? Hell, the Jedi apparently forgot that they built their temple on top of an ancient Sith site. You'd think they'd keep track of something like that. So yeah, the force ghost thing may have been known to them once, but over time, they lost sight of their purpose and became mired in politics, compromise and their own dogma.

Remember that by TPM, as far as they were convinced they'd defeated their ancient enemy over 1000 years ago. They'd won and were the rightful guardians of truth and justice. The custodians and supreme authority on the force. That complacency is what really did them in in the end. They believed they could lead a war without succumbing to the dark side, that they were wise and immune to such things.

All the complaints people have about midichlorian counts and the forbidding of attachment are all intentional flaws in their doctrine. You just have to take a closer look at the subtext. It's why Yoda didn't pass any of this on to Luke: he wanted him to remake the Jedi anew, not as they were before the Clone Wars but as they were in the beginning when they were more connected to the force and less concerned with formalities and structure.
Hell, the first exchange between two Jedi in the whole prequel trilogy highlights this doctrinal conflict quite nicely:-
"But Master Yoda said I should be mindful of the future."
"But not at the expense of the moment. Be mindful of the living Force, young Padawan."
Yoda's and by extension the rest of the order had become more and more detached from the world whereas Qui Gon was seeking to reconnect with it.

 

[Mr Light]

Well said Reverend, though
<<They've lost sight of some of the deeper mysteries of the force and become too set in their ways. Even Yoda in tESB still has some of this "He is too old! Too old to begin the training....">>
I'm pretty sure Yoda was just pretending to refuse Luke, to show Luke's true colors. He was going to train him all along, assuming he wasn't overtly evil. Which of course he already knew because he's been remote-watching Luke through the Force, just like he's been doing with Kanan and Ezra on Rebels.

 

[Reverend]

Well said Reverend, though
<<They've lost sight of some of the deeper mysteries of the force and become too set in their ways. Even Yoda in tESB still has some of this "He is too old! Too old to begin the training....">>
I'm pretty sure Yoda was just pretending to refuse Luke, to show Luke's true colors. He was going to train him all along, assuming he wasn't overtly evil. Which of course he already knew because he's been remote-watching Luke through the Force, just like he's been doing with Kanan and Ezra on Rebels.

I disagree. I think that's a genuine moment of petulance from Yoda. He momentarily reverts to that old grand master of the order. "For 800 years have I trained Jedi! My own council will I keep on who is to be trained!" That's clearly his ego talking.
Remember that by this point in the scene, Yoda has already dropped the artifice of the crazy old hermit because Luke failed the test. He believes he's seen enough of Luke's true colours.

Think of it this way, he's been watching Luke his whole life and by his own admission, was disappointed with what he sees. He reminds him too much of Anakin and is reticent to go down that path again. Depending on how you read into certain things, it seems he's already almost written Luke off and decided that Leia is their best bet, until Obi Wan talks him around.
Which is the key thing: Kenobi clearly sees more in Luke and Yoda trusts Obi Wan's judgement enough to be persuaded. But he's still not totally convinced. "Will he finish what he begins?" "Told you I did. Reckless is he. Now, matters are worse..."

It's all too easy to put mentor characters like Yoda or even Obi Wan on a pedestal, that everything they say and do is part of a larger plan. To think that whatever happens, they at least know what to do. But I think it much more interesting to think of them as real people with real faults. In Yoda's final arc in TCW we see him confronting and acknowledging his own inner darkness and arrogance. In Rebels we see him admit the Jedi's arrogance and that he was consume by fear.
That all doesn't evaporate because of his revelation with the priestesses, it was only the first step along the path. In his own words: "a challenge life long it is..."

 

[Mr Light]

Alright, you've turned me around on it!

 

[WebLurker]

Thanks, though I'm sure I'll be painted as a GL hated now

Don't know about that. I, for one, tend to respect people who don't like everything if they're reasonable in their discussions about it. (And I, for one, dislike or am indifferent to some of the stuff in the franchise that other people love. Case in point, I understand that the Old Republic era materials are insanely popular. The only piece I like is the Knight Errant series.)

I can be entertained by weird films, so my standards are probably not the best. But, it feels like there are a lot of loose ends that are just left out there in the PT and are not followed up on in the films. Instead, they get followed up on in the CW or the books or what-have-you. Which is fine for franchise building but really doesn't tell a good story.

Okay. Considering that Disney is really getting into the one world filtered through multimedia now, that's another trap they'll have to watch out for a lot not.

Let me see if I can explain this better. There are aspects of Jedi lore that are revealed in the PT that hadn't been seen before. Fair enough, that's part of a prequel is to see facets of a world or characters we had not seen or realized their meaning.

However, when introducing something new to the audience a small explanation can be helpful because otherwise it feels like change for the sake of change. Change is uncomfortable which means the storyteller has to take small moments to reassure the audience that it's ok. The OT did this through Han Solo and Luke Skywalker. Han was the skeptic and served as the "This is nonsense" voice to the more fantastic elements and it allows the characters to explore ideas of why it's not nonsense. Luke is our avatar in this new world and lets us get to know it through him. Again, it's a way of engaging the audience without talking down to them.

In the PT, we don't have those characters. Everything is treated as routine, everyday, nothing new, and taken for granted that everyone knows it. But, if Force Ghosting is something relatively new, and Qui-Gon doesn't do it, but still can speak through the Force, then that's an addition that might warrant explanation.

That makes more sense. Thanks.

That's a fair idea, but the Jedi know that there are always two. So, if the leads went cold but the Dooku talks about the Sith again why wouldn't they try to follow it?

It just feels like the Jedi are not very proactive in trying to guard the galaxy.

Fair enough. Unless they assumed once Dooku revealed himself, that Maul had been his master? Or that the second Sith was a hidden member of the Separatists? Or that the second Sith was already dead and Maul was the still looking for another one before his presumed death?

It's funny because I can't stand ROTS in film form. I love the book the film just is so dark and rushed and frustrating that I can't enjoy it. I think there are a handful of moments, such as the opening third of the film that I like, but the rest is down hill.

Okay. I actually found the ROTS novelization annoying, since it was so different from the movie. I have a love-hate relationship with novelizations, since I like the additional details, but find the discrepancies between book and film really annoying, since I read the books to re-experience the movies.

The love scenes are mixed, with the picnic scene being the most cringe-worthy to me. But the rest I can live with. I don't blame anyone for not liking them though.

I thought the sand speech scene really fell flat. The post-dinner fireside scene should've worked (the setting, lighting, and cinematography were right on), but it needed better writing, better acting, or both.

The picnic scene was one I thought worked. The little details on Geonosis (the reprise of the aggressive negotiations joke, the bit where Padem kisses Anakin on the cheek after he brings the bull creature over) worked better than the other ones, since I think they were more understated than the other ones. Even the confession moment before the arena I think managed to more or less overcome the cheesy scrip.

(It'd be interesting to know how much of the bad lines and deliveries was intentional and how much was unintentionally bad writing and directing; given the characters' life histories and age, an awkward courtship would make a lot of sense.)

Except for who Sifo-Dyas was and why did he order a clone army? That's a bit of a weird loose end.

Since Kenobi recognized Dyas's name, I took that to mean that he was a real Jedi. I also didn't think that it was important to know that much else about him.

 

[Reverend]

IIRC the explanation from TCW was that Sifo-Dyas started having visions of war and the fall of the Republic and so lobbied for the creation of an army to protect it. The council and the senate didn't go for it so he went to Kamino and commissioned the clone army in secret. At which point the Sith stepped in, basically hijacking the project and killing Sifo-Dyas to silence him. The timing is a bit odd since that seems to happen before TPM and yet Dooku is apparently already running around as Tyranus. One assumes the plan would have been to send Maul to kill Dooku once his usefulness had ended.

The reason it's so convoluted (and poorly explained in AotC) is that in order for the Jedi to take custody of the clones, they need to buy into the idea that this came from one of their own who was following the will of the force. If they smelt even a whiff of Sith manipulation the plan wouldn't work.
In reality I wouldn't be surprised if Palpatine was directly responsible for those visions in the first place and possibly even approached Sifo-Dyas (either directly or through a proxy like Dooku) with the funding and an already recruited template to get things going.

Which of course points out a fairly large flaw in the whole idea: Jango Fett. Clearly the assassination attempt on Padme was partly designed to allow the council to "discover" the clones by leading them back to Kamino. However, he also led Kenobi to Geonosis and the separatist military build-up.

So they had evidence that the same party (they'd probably assume Dooku) was stoking both sides of a conflict and yet they went along with it anyway. Were they really that arrogant that they thought they could turn Dooku's trap against him? That they could take his clone army and use it to "beat" his droid army and not fall prey to the dark side?

To me that seems to cross a line from arrogance into sheer stupidity.

 

[Set Harth]

So, if the leads went cold but the Dooku talks about the Sith again why wouldn't they try to follow it?

1) They do try to follow up but there's no time to do that in the middle of the action which occupies the films. Lucas at least understands that "Jedi investigating but getting nowhere" doesn't make for a good use of running time.

2) That said, they are also skeptical of Dooku's claims as the end of AOTC shows.

Except for who Sifo-Dyas was and why did he order a clone army? That's a bit of a weird loose end.

Who Sifo-Dyas was is clearly explained in AOTC, that's not a loose end. As to the question of why he would order a clone army, he easily could have been another Qui-Gon type who sometimes broke the rules and did his own thing. If there can be one such Jedi there can be another.

All the complaints people have about midichlorian counts and the forbidding of attachment are all intentional flaws in their doctrine.

People whining about midichlorians on the internet doesn't make them a flaw in Jedi doctrine. Right from the beginning of this franchise it has always been the case that the Force is strong with some people and not strong with other people. That's just the way things are, it's not an issue of doctrine.

Clearly the assassination attempt on Padme was partly designed to allow the council to "discover" the clones by leading them back to Kamino.

Just another popular assumption, but actually that's in no way clear. If the bomb on the landing pad had succeeded in killing Padme, there would have been no further attempt and thus nothing leading to Kamino. We can see in the film that the assassins are not trying to fail. Also, when Kenobi goes to the Temple analysis droids they can tell him nothing; he only discovers the Kamino connection by the sheer chance of knowing Dexter who luckily had happened to find a Kamino saberdart on Subterrel. There's another way to get the Republic to discover the clones which requires none of this and does not depend on chance or random lucky associations.

So they had evidence that the same party (they'd probably assume Dooku) was stoking both sides of a conflict and yet they went along with it anyway.

They only had evidence that a mercenary was selling his services to both sides. Not exactly unheard of in real-world history.

 

[Reverend]

^That's an error on my part. I'd typed something else then re-wrote it after the fact without reading it back properly.

What I meant to say was that despite all the complaints people have about midi-chlorians counts and the forbidding of attachment being incongruous with what we thought we knew in the OT, they're there as intentional flaws in their doctrine.

That is to say their being overly concerned with such things at the expense of the deeper meaning of the force. As I quite clearly stated, the midi-chlorians are still a real thing in that universe, but they're not the beginning and the end of all force lore. That's the narrow minded trap they Jedi had fallen into. Not the doctrine itself per see, but the dogmatic adherence to it and their unwillingness to examine or question it.

Filloni has said that midi-chlorians are in *every* living thing in the galaxy and they are the means by which one can bridge the gap between the the living and the cosmic force. So in theory, anyone can use the force, but just like having a natural genetic pre-disposition makes someone innately more talented at one task or another, having a higher than average midi-chlorian count means that directly feeling and controlling the force comes more naturally to them.

If you took someone like Han Solo who has no overt force ability or sensitivity and from childhood took them to some distant mountaintop monastery and trained them to focus and meditate, then after about twenty years they may just about manage to levitate a pebble about an inch off the ground for a few seconds and that's as good as they're ever going to get.

Just as if you took a normal child and gave them piano lessons every day of their lives, by the time they're adult, they'd probably at least be a competent piano player (and/or loath the very sight of a piano.) But put young Mozart down in front of one and and he'd just play because that's his innate talent.

In that sense, when a Jedi recruits a youngling they're basically talent scouts. Looking for those who are unusually strong in the force. Think of it as a gradient curve rather than a binary state.

 

[Set Harth]

^That's an error on my part. I'd typed something else then re-wrote it after the fact without reading it back properly.

What I meant to say was that despite all the complaints people have about midi-chlorians counts and the forbidding of attachment being incongruous with what we thought we knew in the OT, they're there as intentional flaws in their doctrine.

Midichlorians aren't flaws in doctrine. They're not a doctrine at all.

That is to say their being overly concerned with such things at the expense of the deeper meaning of the force. As I quite clearly stated, the midi-chlorians are still a real thing in that universe, but they're not the beginning and the end of all force lore. That's the narrow minded trap they Jedi had fallen into. Not the doctrine itself per see, but the dogmatic adherence to it and their unwillingness to examine or question it.

None of this is actually true, in the sense that there is no canonical evidence for it. The Jedi never claim that the midichlorians are the beginning and the end of all Force lore. In fact, given what they do say about the Force, it is sufficiently evident that they do not believe that. They have fallen into no "trap" regarding midichlorians, nor are they unwilling to "examine or question" it ( whatever "it" is supposed to mean in this context ). Midichlorians are not a trap. They represent the exact opposite of an unwillingness to examine things. Unwillingness to examine is found in the mindset of those who do not want an explanation for differential innate Force strength.

Essentially, the emotions of disgruntled fans out-of-universe are being conflated with the situation in-universe. The above says it all: "despite all the complaints people have about midichlorian counts... being incongruous with what we thought we knew in the OT". Because some people thought midichlorians contradicted the OT - perhaps because they thought the OT was sending them messages which don't actually exist in those films - it means there's something wrong with the concept of midichlorians. It means midichlorians must be a flaw - an intentional flaw, if necessary. What is being overlooked in this appeal to the masses is the possibility that they are not actually a flaw, intentional or otherwise.

Filloni has said that midi-chlorians are in *every* living thing in the galaxy

We don't need Filoni for that, we already had Liam Neeson tell us the exact same thing in 1999.

 

[Reverend]

Midichlorians aren't flaws in doctrine. They're not a doctrine at all.

Again, that's not what I said, but I can see you're dead set on being dense so I won't bother arguing the point.

We don't need Filoni for that, we already had Liam Neeson tell us the exact same thing in 1999.

I know, but a lot of people seemed to miss the "all living cells" part and only picked out the "in our cells" bit and presumed that to mean only force sensitives have them, hence the need for a clarification. Regardless, it's just a preface to the idea that *anyone* could use the force to some degree, not the whole point.

 

[WebLurker]

IIRC the explanation from TCW was that Sifo-Dyas started having visions of war and the fall of the Republic and so lobbied for the creation of an army to protect it. The council and the senate didn't go for it so he went to Kamino and commissioned the clone army in secret. At which point the Sith stepped in, basically hijacking the project and killing Sifo-Dyas to silence him. The timing is a bit odd since that seems to happen before TPM and yet Dooku is apparently already running around as Tyranus. One assumes the plan would have been to send Maul to kill Dooku once his usefulness had ended.

Maybe. The "Lost One" episode in TCW does prove that Dooku was working with the Sith before TMP, and the creators have confirmed that that was their intent. It's a little murky if Sifo-Dyas was allied with the Sith at all or not, but that's part of the nature of conspiracies.

The reason it's so convoluted (and poorly explained in AotC) is that in order for the Jedi to take custody of the clones, they need to buy into the idea that this came from one of their own who was following the will of the force. If they smelt even a whiff of Sith manipulation the plan wouldn't work.
In reality I wouldn't be surprised if Palpatine was directly responsible for those visions in the first place and possibly even approached Sifo-Dyas (either directly or through a proxy like Dooku) with the funding and an already recruited template to get things going.

We do know from Jango Fett himself that Dooku was the one who recruited him to the project. Beyond that, it's all guesswork (although we do know that the Sith were running the show by the time TMP was going on).

Which of course points out a fairly large flaw in the whole idea: Jango Fett. Clearly the assassination attempt on Padme was partly designed to allow the council to "discover" the clones by leading them back to Kamino. However, he also led Kenobi to Geonosis and the separatist military build-up.

Maybe. It's unclear if the Sith wanted the clones to be discovered the way they were, of if they had another idea in mind and were forced to improvise. Remember, they wanted the Trade Federation onboard and the Federation wouldn't have it unless Padme was assassinated, suggesting that Jango Fett was supposed to get away with that crime. (And if he wanted to get caught, murdering his partner before she told the Jedi was not the way to go and almost made the Jedi loose track of him.)

So they had evidence that the same party (they'd probably assume Dooku) was stoking both sides of a conflict and yet they went along with it anyway.

The only connection they have is that Jango Fett, a bounty hunter was working both sides. Nowhere did Dooku claim to have a hand in it. No one realized that Fett's Tyrannus and Dooku were the same (and Fett didn't mention that Tyrannus was a Sith). It would seem to run counter to Dooku's goal to play both sides (remember, officially, he wants to leave the Republic, not conquer it). The only link is Fett, and he's a bounty hunter up for the highest bidder. So, the case that Dooku was working both sides? As another Christopher Lee character once said: "It's not so very much."

Were they really that arrogant that they thought they could turn Dooku's trap against him? That they could take his clone army and use it to "beat" his droid army and not fall prey to the dark side?

A. They didn't realize it could be a trap until it was too late (like in the final stages of the war) and their only chance was to turn the trap on him.

B. It almost worked. If Mace Windu and his team had captured or killed Palpatine in ROTS, the Sith's part in it would be over.

To me that seems to cross a line from arrogance into sheer stupidity.

Now, I think they made some bad calls, but they're not a bone-headed as some viewers think they are; unlike those characters, we have the full picture, and forget that they don't.

 

[Reverend]

Maybe. It's unclear if the Sith wanted the clones to be discovered the way they were, of if they had another idea in mind and were forced to improvise. Remember, they wanted the Trade Federation onboard and the Federation wouldn't have it unless Padme was assassinated, suggesting that Jango Fett was supposed to get away with that crime. (And if he wanted to get caught, murdering his partner before she told the Jedi was not the way to go and almost made the Jedi loose track of him.)

The problem here is that he murdered her with a saber dart that happens to very specifically originate from the very planet the clones were being made. If he wasn't intentionally leaving behind a trail, then surely he could have killed her with literally anything other than that dart.

I think there was also a suggestion somewhere that Palpatine may have arranged Shmi's kidnapping, which given how that played into events by having both Anakin and Padme in a nearby system when Kenobi needed help on Geonisis means that either Palpatine loves ridiculously convoluted plots or there's some *massive* coincidences going on. That or bad plotting.

As for what the Sith wanted in the long run, getting the Trade Federation to sign the treaty recognising the Separatist Parliament and declaring neutrality may not have been all that much of a deal breakers since they already had the Banking Clan and the other commerce guilds on board. I'm a bit unclear as to whether the Trade Federation owned or operated the droid foundries on Geonosis or if the Geonosians were just subcontractors or third party suppliers.

The only connection they have is that Jango Fett, a bounty hunter was working both sides. Nowhere did Dooku claim to have a hand in it. No one realized that Fett's Tyrannus and Dooku were the same (and Fett didn't mention that Tyrannus was a Sith). It would seem to run counter to Dooku's goal to play both sides (remember, officially, he wants to leave the Republic, not conquer it). The only link is Fett, and he's a bounty hunter up for the highest bidder. So, the case that Dooku was working both sides? As another Christopher Lee character once said: "It's not so very much."

Oh for sure they didn't make the Tyranus=Darth Tyranus=Dooku connection until much later, but you'd have to be pretty thick not to see a possible connection. I mean the people looking to build and army and break away from the Republic by force just happen to hire the exact same mercenary as the people looking to build a clone army for the Republic. It's a big galaxy and there are probably thousands if not millions of such beings out there. What are the odds that the same one would be hired by both parties simultaneously?

B. It almost worked. If Mace Windu and his team had captured or killed Palpatine in ROTS, the Sith's part in it would be over.

That would have been utterly disastrous for the Jedi. A member of the high council murders the Chancellor in his office then installs themselves as the interim authority over the democratically elected Senate? It'd destroy the order as they'd cease to be Jedi. Indeed, many in the order would flatly refuse to go along with it, even openly rebel against the council. Between a fractured Jedi Order, a leaderless Republic and a leaderless Confederacy, all of galactic civilisation would have fractured into dozens, hundreds or even thousands of factions. Palpatine wasn't lying when he said it'd be civil war without end.

The tragedy is that it'd probably be even worse if they'd captured him alive. Indeed I suspect that was Palpatine's plan. To be arrested, put on trial for the crime of "being a Sith", a meaningless non-crime in the eyes of the Republic. Remember, to most of the galaxy the Sith are some long forgotten religion. It'd be like today if a Catholic bishop tried to arrest and try the head of state of state of a modern democracy for the crime of believing in Zeus. It'd probably be seen as a bit odd. Eccentric even, but if the leader in question is popular and thought to be doing a good job, who are we to persecute him for his religion?
The Jedi would be forced to either release him, or kill him anyway and we're back to square one. Either way they'd loose what little trust and regard the senate and the people had for them and at best they'd be stripped of their authority and driven off the capital world. Worse case, they'd all be arrested and the order forcibly dissolved.

 

[fireproof78]

This is why I like the ROTS novel so much. It actually goes in to the intricacies of the plots that are being woven around the Jedi and how they lose no matter what. I also like the fact that Dooku is a huge specist and the Sith are working, by way of the Clone War, to bankrupt several alien powers.

To @WebLurker's point is the fact that the Jedi recognize the trap that they are in, and the consequences of removing Palpatine. I have read a number of fan fictions that explore this idea, and the fact that Bail steps in to deal with the leadership problem. Again, potential but not well plotted.

 

[WebLurker]

The problem here is that he murdered her with a saber dart that happens to very specifically originate from the very planet the clones were being made. If he wasn't intentionally leaving behind a trail, the surely he could have killed her with literally anything other than that dart.

Given how much trouble Obi-Wan has IDing it, I kind of took that to mean that Fett thought it was an untraceable weapon. At any rate, if he was wanting to be tracked down, he really did a bad job of leaving a trail, given that Obi-Wan came really close to loosing it.

I think there was also a suggestion that somewhere that Palpatine may have arranged Shmi's kidnapping, which given how that played into events by having both Anakin and Padme in a nearby system when Kenobi needed help on Geonisis means that either Palpatine loves ridiculously convoluted plots or there's some *massive* coincidences going on. That or bad plotting.

I don't think there's any rational reason to believe that theory, since it breaks down the instant that Palpatine has to ask the Tuskans to kidnap someone for him.

As for what the Sith wanted in the long run, getting the Trade Federation to sign the treaty recognising the Separatist Parliament and declaring neutrality may not have been all that much of a deal breakers since they already had the Banking Clan and the other commerce guilds on board.

Palpatine wanted to use the incident to become chancellor. It's unclear whether he wanted a Trade Federation-controlled Naboo for future use or if he was always planning that the invasion would fail. (Given that he demands that the Trade Federation kill the Jedi and sent Maul to chase the Queen's escaped ship, I took that to mean that he really did want that treaty signed as part of his schemes.)

I'm a bit unclear as to whether the Trade Federation owned or operated the droid foundries on Geonosis or if the Geonosians were just subcontractors or third party suppliers.

As I understand it, the Federation bought their droids from the Geonosians.

Oh for sure they didn't make the Tyranus=Darth Tyranus=Dooku connection until much later, but you'd have to be pretty thick not to see a possible connection. I mean the people looking to build and army and break away from the Republic by force just happen to hire the exact same mercenary as the people looking to build a clone army for the Republic. It's a big galaxy and there are probably thousands if not millions of such beings out there. What are the odds that the same one would be hired by both parties simultaneously?

It is a movie, where the odds work kind of differently than in real life.

That would have been utterly disastrous for the Jedi. A member of the high council murders the Chancellor in his office then installs themselves as the interim authority over the democratically elected Senate? It'd destroy the order as they'd cease to be Jedi. Indeed, many in the order would flatly refuse to go along with it, even openly rebel against the council. Between a fractured Jedi Order, a leaderless Republic and a leaderless Confederacy, all of galactic civilisation would have fractured into dozens, hundreds or even thousands of factions. Palpatine wasn't lying when he said it'd be civil war without end.

The tragedy is that it'd probably be even worse if they'd captured him alive. Indeed I suspect that was Palpatine's plan. To be arrested, put on trial for the crime of "being a Sith", a meaningless non-crime in the eyes of the Republic. Remember, to most of the galaxy the Sith are some long forgotten religion. It'd be like today if a Catholic bishop tried to arrest and try the head of state of state of a modern democracy for the crime of believing in Zeus. It'd probably be seen as a bit odd. Eccentric even, but if the leader in question is popular and thought to be doing a good job, who are we to persecute him for his religion?
The Jedi would be forced to either release him, or kill him anyway and we're back to square one. Either way they'd loose what little trust and regard the senate and the people had for them and at best they'd be stripped of their authority and driven off the capital world. Worse case, they'd all be arrested and the order forcibly dissolved.

Fair point (and even alluded to in the movie). However, it was a last resort option. They could also try him for being a collaborator, in theory, I suppose.

 

[Reverend]

Given how much trouble Obi-Wan has IDing it, I kind of took that to mean that Fett thought it was an untraceable weapon. At any rate, if he was wanting to be tracked down, he really did a bad job of leaving a trail, given that Obi-Wan came really close to loosing it.

By "close to loosing it" I assume you meant that time he asked the temple droids and they came up dry and the the very next person he spoke to knew exactly what it was? Yeah, that's not exactly a masterful stroke of investigative deduction. One could easily argue that Jango knew full well that anyone who has travelled the outer rim out past Rishi would have at least an idea of where it came from and it wouldn't take the Jedi long to consult someone with some actual experience in the underworld. Or maybe he just underestimated their over-reliance on their archives.
Either way it didn't take Kenobi long at all. Like, less that 12 hours.

If you don't want to leave a trail then you don't leave evidence that specifically leads back to your point of origin. If Jango had used say a Rodian weapon instead, bought of the black market on Hutta, where exactly would that have gotten Obi Wan if he traced it to Rodia? Nowhere, that's where.

Again, literally any other weapon would have sufficed and yet to chose to use a Kamino dart.

I don't think there's any rational reason to believe that theory, since it breaks down the instant that Palpatine has to ask the Tuskans to kidnap someone for him.

Like I said it's a theory and not necessarily one I buy into. For me though the part that makes me think it has some credence is 1) the timing and 2) they killed everyone else and kept her alive and in pain why exactly?
Sidious is more than capable of working through intermediaries, or even showing up in person and terrorising that tribe into doing his bidding.

Also note this is a tactic we've seen before, with Vader and Han on Cloud City. It's far from airtight, but I'd hardly call it irrational.

Palpatine wanted to use the incident to become chancellor. It's unclear whether he wanted a Trade Federation-controlled Naboo for future use or if he was always planning that the invasion would fail. (Given that he demands that the Trade Federation kill the Jedi and sent Maul to chase the Queen's escaped ship, I took that to mean that he really did want that treaty signed as part of his schemes.)

Wrong treaty. We're talking about AotC.

Anyway, for the sake of argument I think Palpatine's plan with Naboo was to tie the case up in the courts indefinitely and ride the sympathy vote for his suffering people right into office. After that I don't think he cared much what the Federation did to his world, but it would probably get his administration off to a good start if he was seen to swiftly deal with this corruption.

What threw a hydrospanner into the works was Padme's insistence on returning. If she won the people's freedom then it ran the risk that she'd get all the glory instead of him. Hence the order to wipe them all out.

It is a movie, where the odds work kind of differently than in real life.

That's not a very good excuse in this context because as you say, it is a movie and we the audience see the same guy working both sides right in front of the protagonists. That makes them look dense. Besides, you can either argue it in-universe or out, you can't have it both ways.

Fair point (and even alluded to in the movie). However, it was a last resort option. They could also try him for being a collaborator, in theory, I suppose.

Based on what evidence? The testimony of other Jedi? Second hand accounts of things Dooku said to Obi Wan? The words of a half starved, utterly crazy prisoner of the Pykes? The only people who could corroborate any of this were currently on Mustafar and themselves wanted criminals. Hardly credible witnesses in the eyes of the senate.

 

[JD]

It honestly never crossed my mind that Jango Fett and Zam Wessel weren't really trying to kill Padme. I was always under the impression that the whole thing was an attempt to get revenge for the events of TPM for the Nemoidians.

Anakin being seemingly born of immaculate conception doesn't have much to do with the Prequels?

I just meant that the details of Anakin's origins don't have a direct impact on what happens in the movies. All we really needed to know was that he was an immaculate conception, the specific details don't really change the events of the movies. All the reveal would have done was maybe add a bit of a twist, but unless Anakin found out, which we know he didn't, everything would have still played out exactly the same.