Star Wars: The Clone Wars S4
- Thread starter Mysterion
- Start date
Finally saw Massacre and Bounty - I'm liking where they're taking Ventress because plain old Sith can be a bit tedious with their one-note villainy.
I wonder how "canonical" it is that she seems to be able to shrug off the grip of the dark side just because, I guess, she's a decent person underneath it all? (There's no reason she had to interpret the massacre of the Nightsisters in a "good" way and become a more unselfish person. She could easily have allowed it to embitter her further and destroy any vestige of humanity.)
The Mortis Arc depicted the dark side as having a fearsome, addictive grasp that goes beyond mere circumstance or personality, and can exert control over even a really nice person like Ahsoka.
Shouldn't the dark side be "fighting for control" a bit harder? The issue of her morality seems identical to what you'd expect for a merely normal person, having to do with their personal experiences and character, rather than someone who might need to fight to some degree or other with an external, mystical factor.
Cuz if Sith can just reform themselves through nothing more than will power and their basic common decency, wow, that really makes Anakin look bad!
Ventress endured traumatic personal loss and instead of it making her worse, it made her a better person!
I wonder how "canonical" it is that she seems to be able to shrug off the grip of the dark side just because, I guess, she's a decent person underneath it all? (There's no reason she had to interpret the massacre of the Nightsisters in a "good" way and become a more unselfish person. She could easily have allowed it to embitter her further and destroy any vestige of humanity.)
The Mortis Arc depicted the dark side as having a fearsome, addictive grasp that goes beyond mere circumstance or personality, and can exert control over even a really nice person like Ahsoka.
Shouldn't the dark side be "fighting for control" a bit harder? The issue of her morality seems identical to what you'd expect for a merely normal person, having to do with their personal experiences and character, rather than someone who might need to fight to some degree or other with an external, mystical factor.
Cuz if Sith can just reform themselves through nothing more than will power and their basic common decency, wow, that really makes Anakin look bad!
Ventress endured traumatic personal loss and instead of it making her worse, it made her a better person!
Cuz if Sith can just reform themselves through nothing more than will power and their basic common decency, wow, that really makes Anakin look bad!
I LOL'd.
In honor of Boba, I hereby present 12 Variations on Boba's Helmet. How many quatloos for the Tiffany lamp version? 
Were the Night Elves the glowing-eyed people? That underground world was among the best they've done yet.
Were the Night Elves the glowing-eyed people? That underground world was among the best they've done yet.
Finally saw Massacre and Bounty - I'm liking where they're taking Ventress because plain old Sith can be a bit tedious with their one-note villainy.
I wonder how "canonical" it is that she seems to be able to shrug off the grip of the dark side just because, I guess, she's a decent person underneath it all? (There's no reason she had to interpret the massacre of the Nightsisters in a "good" way and become a more unselfish person. She could easily have allowed it to embitter her further and destroy any vestige of humanity.)
The Mortis Arc depicted the dark side as having a fearsome, addictive grasp that goes beyond mere circumstance or personality, and can exert control over even a really nice person like Ahsoka.
Shouldn't the dark side be "fighting for control" a bit harder? The issue of her morality seems identical to what you'd expect for a merely normal person, having to do with their personal experiences and character, rather than someone who might need to fight to some degree or other with an external, mystical factor.
Cuz if Sith can just reform themselves through nothing more than will power and their basic common decency, wow, that really makes Anakin look bad!
Ventress was never a Sith and lacked the ability to be one.
After decades of mayhem, and only because his son was threatened. That doesn't impress me - even very evil people can be self-sacrificing to blood relatives and members of their own narrowly defined tribe, because the closer you are related, the more your own self-interest spills over into the self-interest of another person.
The true test of altruism is willingness to help strangers, who you have zero investment in. Ventress was far more unselfish than Vader - she was considerate towards a pack of strangers who weren't related to her and gave her no particular reason to be loyal, just the opposite. In her shoes, I doubt I would have been so altruistic as to give them their share of the loot.
This raises the question of why this story isn't about Ventress. As a character, she's demonstrated "stature" - some outstanding ability that makes them worth telling a story about. I still haven't seen much evidence of Anakin's stature, and he can't show the strength of character that Ventress has, and still have the story make any sense.
That actually does make sense - then Anakin's character isn't really the issue. It's that he's a juicy prize for the dark side, being the Chosen One. He was always dooooomed.
In that case, Anakin's "stature" stems entirely from the fact that he is the Chosen One, and of keen interest to the dark side, which doesn't go for chumps.
And Sith or not, she was clearly in the grip of the dark side. She wasn't a nice person, and wanted to be even less nice by becoming a Sith.
The true test of altruism is willingness to help strangers, who you have zero investment in. Ventress was far more unselfish than Vader - she was considerate towards a pack of strangers who weren't related to her and gave her no particular reason to be loyal, just the opposite. In her shoes, I doubt I would have been so altruistic as to give them their share of the loot.
This raises the question of why this story isn't about Ventress. As a character, she's demonstrated "stature" - some outstanding ability that makes them worth telling a story about. I still haven't seen much evidence of Anakin's stature, and he can't show the strength of character that Ventress has, and still have the story make any sense.
Waitaminute - because she was incompetent, she had the opportunity to escape the clutches of the dark side, and if she'd been better at her job, she would have been doomed? The dark side is picky and only selects the best?
That actually does make sense - then Anakin's character isn't really the issue. It's that he's a juicy prize for the dark side, being the Chosen One. He was always dooooomed.
In that case, Anakin's "stature" stems entirely from the fact that he is the Chosen One, and of keen interest to the dark side, which doesn't go for chumps.
If she had been able to boot Dooku out of his place as One of the Two, then would he have had the chance to escape the dark side (assuming he has that in him, which he may not), and Ventress would have been utterly trapped?
And Sith or not, she was clearly in the grip of the dark side. She wasn't a nice person, and wanted to be even less nice by becoming a Sith.
I agree that departing the Dark Side should be a much more difficult thing to do...like trying to get yourself out of quicksand. Because if it's so easy to turn back, then Anakin should have done it years and years earlier.
At least they had Ventress still hold the girl at swordpoint, showing she didn't become a total goody twoshoes.
At least they had Ventress still hold the girl at swordpoint, showing she didn't become a total goody twoshoes.
After decades of mayhem, and only because his son was threatened. That doesn't impress me - even very evil people can be self-sacrificing to blood relatives and members of their own narrowly defined tribe, because the closer you are related, the more your own self-interest spills over into the self-interest of another person.
The true test of altruism is willingness to help strangers, who you have zero investment in. Ventress was far more unselfish than Vader - she was considerate towards a pack of strangers who weren't related to her and gave her no particular reason to be loyal, just the opposite. In her shoes, I doubt I would have been so altruistic as to give them their share of the loot.
This raises the question of why this story isn't about Ventress. As a character, she's demonstrated "stature" - some outstanding ability that makes them worth telling a story about. I still haven't seen much evidence of Anakin's stature, and he can't show the strength of character that Ventress has, and still have the story make any sense.
Waitaminute - because she was incompetent, she had the opportunity to escape the clutches of the dark side, and if she'd been better at her job, she would have been doomed? The dark side is picky and only selects the best?
That actually does make sense - then Anakin's character isn't really the issue. It's that he's a juicy prize for the dark side, being the Chosen One. He was always dooooomed. (However, I'm far from certain any of this was intended by the writers.)
In that case, Anakin's "stature" stems entirely from the fact that he is the Chosen One, and of keen interest to the dark side, which doesn't go for chumps.
If she had been able to boot Dooku out of his place as One of the Two, then would he have had the chance to escape the dark side (assuming he has that in him, which he may not), and Ventress would have been utterly trapped?
And Sith or not, she was clearly in the grip of the dark side. She wasn't a nice person, and wanted to be even less nice by becoming a
Sith.
agreed on the first point. I keep hearing about Anakin's "redemption," and I'm like "yeah, he saved HIS OWN SON. How very noble."
I'd like to see Ventress' turn towards goodness upended by one nasty little temptation after another to cut corners and go back to her old habits, and being cast out into the galaxy on her own would make her more desperate - she's confident now, but isn't she going to regret giving up that case of credits when work dries up and she runs out of money and has to work for nasty types who aren't as gullible as the "dictator" this week, seriously, how does that guy stay dictator when he doesn't have the sense to open the box before paying the bounty hunter?
And I would like to see her be aware that these temptations are not simply the random cruelty of the cosmos, but rather represent the dark side trying to reassert its control. Or maybe they are just random incidents, because the cosmos really is cruel, but someone who previously served the dark side should be able to feel when it's reasserting itself, and it's not like she has the option to go live in a nicer galaxy, where there will never be any temptation to be bad.
As someone in a different galaxy once said, "it's easy to be a saint in paradise."
Might she run across Jedi someday? How about her old boyfriend, Obi-Wan? Won't he be surprised to see how she's changed. As a dark Jedi who seems to be clawing her way back from the abyss, she'd be very interesting as a case study for the Jedi. They should be keenly interested to know how a erstwhile wannabee Sith could possibly reform herself simply through an act of will.
I'm trying to sort out exactly where the mind control leaves off and the conscious morality begins. That's never been established as some bright, shining line on the continuum between Total Puppetry and Total Free Will, and the Mortis Arc only made things muddier by showing Ahsoka and Anakin responding to the dark side in distinctly different ways (why? just because Anakin is the Chosen One and is therefore more resistant?)
But that in itself is an answer, that wherever that bright, shining line sits, it's in the muddling middle. That's always had to be the right answer, because the ends of the continuum would be too restricting. Keeping it vague also keeps it mysterious and cool.
But that in itself is an answer, that wherever that bright, shining line sits, it's in the muddling middle. That's always had to be the right answer, because the ends of the continuum would be too restricting. Keeping it vague also keeps it mysterious and cool.
What's going on with Ventress in The Clone Wars right now seems to jive with a comic that came out before the release of Revenge of the Sith, in which she hijacks a ship, and decides to just go and leave everything behind, because she's tired of the war and just wants to get away from it all.
No. She was simply not cut out to be the Sith of the Bane era like Palpatine or Plagueis. They were simply too different and at an entirely different level from her.
Ventress didn't have the drive or the ambition that a true Sith posses. She wanted the power and prestige but not willing to go that extra mile that true Sith Lords go.
Yeah, I don't see here going "good". But I think we can say that at this point it's up in the air on what direction they're going to take her. I'll be disappointed if they go with the whole "getting revenge on those that used her" angle. I could see her trying to rebuild the Sisters
I agree -- nothing in these episodes suggests that Ventress is "turning good." Her choices in this latest episode weren't about abstractions like good and evil, they were about where she is right now as a person. She's just had her home and her people torn from her; she's orphaned and alone and lost. She saw a little girl in the same situation, felt a certain kinship with her, and decided she didn't want to let that happen to the kid. But she still took her share of the bounty and ransomed the kid back to her family for a second payoff. So it was hardly a heroic act, just a series of crimes that had a slightly compassionate ulterior motive. And only because she identified with that girl's situation, making it still a rather self-centered reaction. The fact that she'd help someone who reminded her of herself (and in a way that still brought her a profit) doesn't mean she'd have any qualms about hurting anyone else. It just means she's not a completely one-dimensional villain.
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