Star Wars: The Clone Wars S4

[PsychoPere]

Order 65 was one of the other 150 GAR contingency orders, and comes from Karen Traviss's Republic Commando series (True Colors, specifically).

However, Mace Windu was most certainly not enforcing the order, because its authority to arrest or execute the Supreme Chancellor was predicated on a decision issued by the Galactic Senate or Republic Security Council.

 

[Admiral_Young]

^ That's what I thought as well which was why I was confused by timothy's post.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Mace Windu does try to stage a coup in ROTS, which seems to be the final straw that turns Anakin against the Jedi.

Anakin turns out against Mace not because of the coup, but because Mace was about to kill Palpatine, the only person that knows Darth Plagueis's secrets.

Yes that's true. I knew that, but I did suggest the wrong reason why Anakin stood against him.

The point I intended to focus on was that Mace did try to act outside the law. I agree completely that the primary thing motivating Anakin to stand against Windu was the hope that Palpatine could save Padme, and not to uphold the law.

 

[Yevetha]

Quotes from Termis:

Parts of the oligarchy are corrupt. Other parts are not. Padme and Bail Organa are upstanding and well-intentioned, and as far as anyone knows, so is Palps. I think what we have is a Republic with disturbing oligarchic tendencies, that could flip either way.

Oligarchy means rule for the wealthy by the wealthy. Organa and co are not in it for themselves.

Corruption was rampant in politics according to every source.

How can the general population be sure that the Jedi mean well and are not just a pack of power-hungry fanatics?

Before the Clone Wars they had a 1000 year record of keeping the peace.

There is definitely a problem with the Republic - the Separatists exist because they think the Republic is too corrupt to save (from the movies, I thought the Seppy movement was all just a bunch of greedy capitalists being manipulated by Sidious, it's much more interesting this way).

I think the political views of George Lucas made them a bit hard to understand.

He focused to much on the greedy capitalist aspect that we forget they probably had some wery legitimate complaints.

 

[cbspock]

The logic of that is becoming a bit sketchy, since Anakin is seeing evidence that the Republic does need to change. Maybe he doesn't think the Jedi are the right ones to do it, or aren't going to do it right, but then what does he propose as an alternative?

The logic of Anakin being surprised about Palps and the Sith stuff has become untenable anyway. Anakin now has evidence that he's beyond the Jedi and Sith, and may be able to control both sides, for the betterment of all. In ROTS, he acts completely surprised and clueless about everything.

When Palps reveals his true colors, Anakin's first thought should be "aha, this guy may be just the pawn I'm looking for." That synchs up with Anakin's attack on Mace, but not with the logic of why he does it, because he doesn't seem to have any plan of his own (because of course TCW is adding new information to the story that didn't exist when the PT was filmed.)

The only reason in ROTS that Anakin protects Palpatine from Mace was not for any political purpose. Anakin needed him alive to show him how to use the force to keep Padme alive.


-Chris

 

[DarKush]

Yeah, I agree that Anakin wasn't so concerned about the sanctity of republican government when he struck at Mace. He wanted Palpatine to save Padme. After the deed was done, that's when you see Anakin mumbling along as Palpatine talks about a Jedi plot against them.

As for Mace, yeah it was very flimsy. Even if Palpatine was a Sith, is that a crime? The Sith hadn't been an obvious threat to the Republic in a 1,000 years. Who even remembered them? Even the Jedi had lost their ability to detect Palpatine or determine that Dooku had even fallen to the dark side.

And it shows how little faith the Jedi have in the Senate, the courts, and the media, that Palpatine had to be arrested and/or executed on the spot instead of bringing whatever evidence they had to the public. The Jedi played right into Palpatine's hands and gave him justification for his actions.

 

[Admiral_Young]

It isn't about having faith in the Senate or government. The Jedi had already suspected corruption and remember Palpatine basically told Padme this when he was nominated to succeed Valorum and manipulated her into a no-confidence vote. Palpatine wouldn't have gone on trial for being a Sith Lord, he would have gone on trial for war crimes. Essentially manipulating the system into creating what was essentially a self-made civil war. He set the stage for one of the largest coup's in galactic history and pulled it off. As for the media, it is obvious that it was being used already for Republic propaganda during the Clone War and probably controlled or at least manipulated through the Chancellor's office. It wasn't about being a Sith Lord at all.

I suspect that if they had actually managed to arrest and bring Palpatine to trial that it would be a long and prolonged affair as the State would have to present enough convincing evidence to convict Palpatine. Mace was correct in probably thinking that Palps had people paid off. The whole thing would have been a colossal mis-handling and mess that I assume would lead into a mistrial. Not to mention the fact that Palps most likely had the ability to escape imprisonment during the trial.

This would make for a fascinating alternate history I think. What if Palpatine was Defeated before being able to create the Empire?

 

[Mr Light]

^^
Then the Vong would have easily crushed the non-militarized galaxy, and the Jedi would be extinct, the survivors slaves and sacrifices.

 

[DarKush]

It isn't about having faith in the Senate or government. The Jedi had already suspected corruption and remember Palpatine basically told Padme this when he was nominated to succeed Valorum and manipulated her into a no-confidence vote. Palpatine wouldn't have gone on trial for being a Sith Lord, he would have gone on trial for war crimes. Essentially manipulating the system into creating what was essentially a self-made civil war. He set the stage for one of the largest coup's in galactic history and pulled it off. As for the media, it is obvious that it was being used already for Republic propaganda during the Clone War and probably controlled or at least manipulated through the Chancellor's office. It wasn't about being a Sith Lord at all.

I suspect that if they had actually managed to arrest and bring Palpatine to trial that it would be a long and prolonged affair as the State would have to present enough convincing evidence to convict Palpatine. Mace was correct in probably thinking that Palps had people paid off. The whole thing would have been a colossal mis-handling and mess that I assume would lead into a mistrial. Not to mention the fact that Palps most likely had the ability to escape imprisonment during the trial.

This would make for a fascinating alternate history I think. What if Palpatine was Defeated before being able to create the Empire?

And if it did result in a mistrial, so what? The hubbub over his arrest and trial would limit his ability to retain power and put a taint in the public's mind. His actions might've been watched with way more scrutiny, if he even held on to power. It might also cause people to start to question the war and start the process or scaling it down and reigning it in.

Mace decided to take the law into his hands. He showed nearly as much contempt for the Republic as Palpatine did. Don't get me wrong, we the audience know what Palpatine is capable of courtesy of the OT, but at that point in the PT, I can't see how a person couldn't argue for putting him on trial. Even Mace went through with the perfunctory arrest of Palpatine at first. Even he knew you just can't straight up take out a head of state. Though I think he also anticipated Palpatine's reaction and that's why he brought other Jedi Masters with him.

To some extent the Jedi had quietly abetted Palpatine. They had offered mild criticism, not even sure if it was public or to him personally (we got an aside between Obi Wan and Anakin), about how he had stayed in office longer than he should, and Mace at least pressed him once on winding down the war, but we really don't know how much the Jedi used their influence with the Senate or the public to rein him in. Why not forge stronger ties to the peace faction (Mothma, Organa, and Padme)? Why even accept generalships of the Republic army to begin with? At least in the Republic comic, there was some brief talk of a Jedi schism about the war, though that book quickly turned the dissenters into dark siders (Sora Bulq for example). So it didn't spend much time on the idea of Jedi objectors.

So it seemed strange after largely being silent as the Republic drifted into fascism, they then decide to radically alter course by assassinating the Chancellor. What were they going to do after that? Install a Jedi led government? Their own puppet government? Even though I know the Jedi were good guys and wouldn't do that, what would the average person in the Republic think? Palpatine was very popular.

 

[Admiral_Young]

I never stated that I personally thought Mace was right for what he attempted to do...and if it had reached a mistrial there would be simply chaos. No doubt Palpatine would use PR against the Jedi for arresting him under false pretenses without supporting evidence and thus turn public opinion against them. There are a few possibilities that would have happened had Palpatine been arrested due to the law of the land that's all I'm really trying to point out.

Once again though we've turned this into a general Star Wars discussion thread.

 

[DimesDan]

Once again though we've turned this into a general Star Wars discussion thread.

Which there is nothing wrong with what so ever. Remember, threads are fluid, they change and given what little information there is concerning season four of Clone Wars, is it any wonder.

So if this is a general Star Wars thread now, what's the general take on Fate of the Jedi? I've just started Outcast and so far, I'm liking it.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

^^
Then the Vong would have easily crushed the non-militarized galaxy, and the Jedi would be extinct, the survivors slaves and sacrifices.

No offense but, I have to agree with Han Solo that that is utter horses@#t.

 

[Yevetha]

^^
Then the Vong would have easily crushed the non-militarized galaxy, and the Jedi would be extinct, the survivors slaves and sacrifices.

The New Republic was able to beat them back i dont see why the Old Republic could not.

 

[PsychoPere]

The Galactic Federation of Free Alliances (remember, the New Republic had ceased to exist by this point) didn't win the Yuuzhan Vong War; the New Jedi Order, with the instrumental assistance of the living planet Zonama Sekot, did. Without Zonama Sekot - without the Jedi - even the stronger centralized government of the GFFA would likely have ultimately fallen to the Yuuzhan Vong.

 

[Admiral_Young]

Plus Mr. Light's point only is valid if we are taking EU into consideration in my little alternate reality which I wasn't really considering at the time.

 

[timothy]

outcast is a great novel loved it. do you think with tbe success of the clone wars they would do a new jedi order animated series with the vong? and speaking of the vong and verg do you think they might make an appearence in the clone wars

 

[timothy]

SORRY FOR THE DOUBLE POST. KEY BOARD STICKING.

 

[PsychoPere]

do you think with tbe success of the clone wars they would do a new jedi order animated series with the vong? and speaking of the vong and verg do you think they might make an appearence in the clone wars

I would consider the first to be highly unlikely. The second would be impossible, as Vergere during the timeframe of the Clone Wars would be traveling in the void between galaxies, I believe.

 

[Admiral_Young]

^ Yeah I too would consider that unlikely. The series will mainly be focusing on events leading up to the start of the Battle of Courscant now. Filoni has stated there will be a heavier focus on Anakin's journey towards the dark side that kind of started last season but will be focused on in this season.

 

[timothy]

I thought vergere was a clone wars era jedi?