Star Wars: The Clone Wars S4

[Yevetha]

Following the end of the Wars in 1,000 BBY, the Ruusan Reformation nearly eliminated the Republic's military. The Republic Army remained, but was nothing more than a purely symbolic force; the few remaining ground military units were placed under the jurisdiction of the Judicial Forces. The Republic came to rely more heavily on Jedi Knights and local militaries for keeping peace in the galaxy.

 

[Temis the Vorta]

The Republic could whomp up a military quickly once hostilities broke out. Societies under attack have to do that, or they won't survive. The question is, were the clonetroopers vital to the war effort or could the Republic have gotten by without them? If the former, then the Republic isn't worth saving.

If the clonetroopers were needed as an emergency stopgap measure to stave off immanent defeat, then fine. But steps should be underway to cease production and transfer the war effort over to "normal" Republic citizens. Producing clonetroopers is morally reprehensible and even under an emergency situation, it's questionable. Is it okay for a society to do anything in order to survive, no matter how bad?

So the Jedi did nobody any favors by allowing the clones to avoid forcing the Republic to answer a very fundamental question - which the Jedi should understand is fundamental. So maybe their fatal flaw is in avoiding a possibly painful truth.

Why do the jedi serve a corrupt oligarchy in the first place?

How corrupt is it? Is it salvageable? All systems of government have their problems, just look at Congress for proof. But the question we need answered, is whether the Jedi are simply being fools in thinking the Republic is worth saving. Whether or not Republic worlds could raise a military capable of defending the Republic if they had to, is one important factor in assessing whether the Jedi are fools.

A clever way to handle this storyline is to keep it ambiguous, so that Obi-Wan and Padme might consider the Republic worth defending, and Anakin might decide the opposite, and there's no clear way of saying who's right or wrong.

And to do that, it would help to establish that the clonetroopers were a stopgap emergency measure, and that the war wasn't expected to take as long as it has, and now some elements in the Republic are getting concerned about the morality of continuing this immoral practice, while others are worried that transitioning away from an efficient and experienced clonetrooper military will allow the Separatists to gain too much advantage, and others are just corrupt and want the clones to keep doing their dirty work but are hiding their true attitudes behind a pragmatic argument. Then you have a messy situation in which reasonable people could come to very different conclusions.

 

[ReadyAndWilling]

anyone have a trailer link on youtube?

 

[Admiral_Young]

The trailer was linked two pages ago.

 

[cbspock]

I hope they don't kill off Ashoka. I hope they have her go into hiding. Then use her as a jumping off point for a Post-Jedi series, where Luke and her cross paths. I would love to see a cartoon series take place in the New Republic era given the fact that Heir to the Empire is celebrating its 20th anniversary.


-Chris

 

[Yevetha]

Termis:

How corrupt is it? Is it salvageable? All systems of government have their problems, just look at Congress for proof.

I dont know.

Why cant jedi run for office if politicians are so corrupt?

Or electing people belonging the more honorable raqces would be a good idea.

 

[DarKush]

I hope they don't kill off Ashoka. I hope they have her go into hiding. Then use her as a jumping off point for a Post-Jedi series, where Luke and her cross paths. I would love to see a cartoon series take place in the New Republic era given the fact that Heir to the Empire is celebrating its 20th anniversary.


-Chris

Funny you feel that way because I feel that she has to die. I think her death would add a great emotional punch and weight to the series, especially since this show is almost as much about Ashoka as it is about Anakin. And her death would be one more person Anakin couldn't save, adding more rationale to the decisions he makes in ROTS, to hold on to Padme at the cost of his soul, the Jedi Order, and the Republic.

Though I shouldn't bring the larger EU into this, I can't help but think about it, and they've let a lot of Jedi survive lately, IMO. I don't see Ashoka as the type of person to hide. I think she would confront Vader, whether she knew it was Anakin or not, but definitely if she knew it was Anakin behind the mask. And we know how that would turn out, unless he did the unexpected and spared her. Which wouldn't jibe with his burning hatred of the Jedi that we see in the ROTS and the OT. I guess he can act 'out of character' and let her live, but that still doesn't feel right. There's also the possibility that he could try to turn her, (like Luke or his Secret Apprentice) and absent that, he kills her.

I think it's just better to kill off Ashoka as the conclusion to the Clone Wars cartoon. If she survives to live another day, she will die when inevitably confronts Anakin, and if she doesn't, then it begs the question of where was she during the Dark Times and the Rebellion, or even the New Jedi Order? That's the question that hangs over Asajj, at least for the moment-if we are still going by the "Obssession" comic book series (which has yet to be completely overturned by the cartoon). Ashoka's arc is best served by the ending it during the Clone Wars.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

I actually think Ahsoka is the protagonist.

 

[Temis the Vorta]

Why cant jedi run for office if politicians are so corrupt?

Or electing people belonging the more honorable raqces would be a good idea.

Perhaps Jedi give up their right to run for office because it would be a conflict of interest. And the idea that there are "more honorable races" is very troubling since it implies some races are culturally or genetically inferior to others and deserving of disenfranchisement. Who's making this judgement of some races being more "honorable" than others? That by itself sounds pretty corrupt or at least anti-democratic.

There's been no definitive answer one way or the other about corruption in the Republic. And there shouldn't be - if the situation is ambiguous, that makes for the best setup for Anakin's fall.

I actually think Ahsoka is the protagonist.

I think you may be right, but it's a close call between her and Anakin. It's kind of an odd story structure, with two equal protagonists. But it works.

Funny you feel that way because I feel that she has to die. I think her death would add a great emotional punch and weight to the series, especially since this show is almost as much about Ashoka as it is about Anakin.

They can have their cake and eat it too by letting Anakin think Ashoka is dead (or fallen to the dark side) because of some action or inaction on the part of the Jedi. Then he can go off the rails right on schedule and the writers can spin off a new series with her as the lead character.

 

[Admiral_Young]

As reported in another thread Filoni stated at SDCC that they have about eight different endings of the series for Ahsoka alone and haven't made up their mind what her fate is which is why I think he has avoided answering the question for so long (aside from the obvious fact that he doesn't want to answer the question and wants people to watch).

I have proposed an idea similar to what Temis stated that they could leave it where Ahoska is lost and Anakin doesn't know what happened to her. I think they're going to keep her alive so they can use her in the EU or something down the road. They had Ventress survive in the comics IIRC.

 

[Yevetha]

Perhaps Jedi give up their right to run for office because it would be a conflict of interest

There was actualy a jedi Chancellor:

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Genarra

And the idea that there are "more honorable races" is very troubling since it implies some races are culturally or genetically inferior to others and deserving of disenfranchisement. Who's making this judgement of some races being more "honorable" than others? That by itself sounds pretty corrupt or at least anti-democratic.

Some species are better at things then others. I would put somebody belonging to a race that does not care about money at the charge of the Sw equivalent of the SEC. I am not saying that ot would be illegal for individuals belonging to certain species to run for office i am just saying it would be practical.

There's been no definitive answer one way or the other about corruption in the Republic. And there shouldn't be - if the situation is ambiguous, that makes for the best setup for Anakin's fall.

I think there should be periods when there is barely corruption and when its rampant.

Its pretty depresing seeing the jedi serve a corrupt oligarchy all the time.

 

[Temis the Vorta]

Parts of the oligarchy are corrupt. Other parts are not. Padme and Bail Organa are upstanding and well-intentioned, and as far as anyone knows, so is Palps. I think what we have is a Republic with disturbing oligarchic tendencies, that could flip either way.

The dilemma is, if you decide the Republic is corrupt, what next? Do the Jedi stage a coup? Do they decide that certain races are too corrupt at various things and start overriding the democratic process? How can the general population be sure that the Jedi mean well and are not just a pack of power-hungry fanatics? Maybe the Jedi are the ones under the control of a Sith.

It's becoming increasingly plausible that Anakin might engineer a coup for perfectly valid reasons that don't stem from stupidity, immaturity or general cluelessness, and that in itself is a very good thing. There is definitely a problem with the Republic - the Separatists exist because they think the Republic is too corrupt to save (from the movies, I thought the Seppy movement was all just a bunch of greedy capitalists being manipulated by Sidious, it's much more interesting this way).

As for Ahsoka, she's a hot-headed kid right now, but if she starts maturing fast, which someone in her position is going to need to do, by the time ROTS rolls around, she might have the maturity not to run right off and tackle Vader, regardless of whether she knows the connection with Anakin.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Mace Windu does try to stage a coup in ROTS, which seems to be the final straw that turns Anakin against the Jedi.

 

[Temis the Vorta]

The logic of that is becoming a bit sketchy, since Anakin is seeing evidence that the Republic does need to change. Maybe he doesn't think the Jedi are the right ones to do it, or aren't going to do it right, but then what does he propose as an alternative?

The logic of Anakin being surprised about Palps and the Sith stuff has become untenable anyway. Anakin now has evidence that he's beyond the Jedi and Sith, and may be able to control both sides, for the betterment of all. In ROTS, he acts completely surprised and clueless about everything.

When Palps reveals his true colors, Anakin's first thought should be "aha, this guy may be just the pawn I'm looking for." That synchs up with Anakin's attack on Mace, but not with the logic of why he does it, because he doesn't seem to have any plan of his own (because of course TCW is adding new information to the story that didn't exist when the PT was filmed.)

 

[CorporalCaptain]

because of course TCW is adding new information to the story that didn't exist when the PT was filmed

Yep.

Edit: Did you say "whomp"?

The Republic could whomp up a military quickly once hostilities broke out.

 

[DarthPipes]

Mace Windu does try to stage a coup in ROTS, which seems to be the final straw that turns Anakin against the Jedi.

Right. It's actually discussed in the movie before they make the decision.

Removing Palpatine is right but you just got to love the flimsy evidence they try to arrest Palpatine on in the film. They go to arrest the Supreme Chancellor of the Republic on the word of a Jedi that Mace Windu himself admits he doesn't trust and who isn't exactly playing with a full deck. Because Anakin says he's a Sith.

 

[Hound of UIster]

Mace Windu does try to stage a coup in ROTS, which seems to be the final straw that turns Anakin against the Jedi.

Anakin turns out against Mace not because of the coup, but because Mace was about to kill Palpatine, the only person that knows Darth Plagueis's secrets.

The Stover novelization makes everything much more clearer though it's practically a rewrite of the movie.

 

[Admiral_Young]

^ Yep. Palpatine's final ensnare of Anakin was the story of Darth Plagueis the "Wise". He'd finally pinpointed his weakness and exploited it with a potential lie that was enough to convince Anakin. He needed Palpatine to stand trial instead so he could at least still have a chance of learning what he promised from him and Mace threatened that.

Wow. This thread is gonna be long before we get to premier if this is actually used as the discussion thread lol.

 

[timothy]

actually mace was enforceing ORDER 65.
and if they had told the clone troopers to come with them it pobably would'nt have been that bad of a arrest.

 

[Admiral_Young]

What the hell is Order 65? I'm behind on my EU readings.