Star Wars: The Clone Wars S4

[Christopher]

I don't see any reason to doubt that Krell had an accurate vision of the future, which would only need to mean that he saw a sliver.

But what reason is there to believe it? As I understand it, precognition, while not unprecedented in powerful Jedi (cf. Anakin, Ahsoka), is a rare ability. It seems more probable to me that it was just a figure of speech expressing his belief or agenda, the way it is 99.999... percent of the time you hear people (especially power-mad fanatics) intone "I have seen the future!"

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Well, unlike the usual case, in this case we have an order of beings who actually are clairvoyant, so I hope the writers wouldn't let slip the cliché "I have seen the future!" unless the character actually meant it.

The Jedi leaders have said more than once that the Dark Side is clouding their ability to see the future. It seems reasonable that a fallen Jedi in league with the Dark Side therefore might not necessarily suffer from this limitation.

However, in the absence of a description of writer intent, for example in an interview, there's no proof either way; it's just a gut instinct I have that the exposition was intended to be taken literally and accurately. YMMV.

 

[Christopher]

Well, maybe it's my training as a history student, but without corroboration I tend to take a character's dialogue only as evidence of what that character believes, not of objective truth. And the phrase is so commonly used that way that it didn't occur to me to see it differently. Although now that I've thought about it more and dredged up a few more memories, I'll grant that precognition seems to be more common among Jedi than I'd assumed.

But I'm a little disturbed by the suggestion that the bad guys actually know what's going to happen while the good guys are in the dark. It seems to give them an unfair advantage. I'm not fond of stories where the heroes have to be clueless in order for the story to work. And it raises some prickly and complicated questions about causality and free will if the bad guys are choosing their action based on foreknowledge that they would choose those actions (in which case it's not really a choice, is it?). Also, isn't it possible that different "light side" Jedi would have different levels of Force proficiency or susceptibility to "clouding," and thus some of them could glimpse aspects of the coming future and be forewarned? It seems to be asking a lot to say that all Jedi are blind to events that are easily discernible to Sith and even Sith wannabes.

 

[Set Harth]

Also, isn't it possible that different "light side" Jedi would have different levels of Force proficiency or susceptibility to "clouding," and thus some of them could glimpse aspects of the coming future and be forewarned?

Yes. For example, Sifo-Dyas.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

One of the recurring themes in the films is that the good guys generally rely on themselves individually. On the other hand, the bad guys generally rely on technology or scheming to give them some sort of edge; indeed as it plays out they generally end up over-relying on such external material advantages. The two sides of this theme have direct parallels in the recurring man versus machine theme.

I think one can argue that both the Jedi's vision of the future being clouded by the Dark Side as well as the Sith's vision (i.e. Darth Sidious's vision) not being obscured fit into these themes. The clouding of the future limits each Jedi's scope of planning to just his or her immediate future, which emphasizes each Jedi as an individual agent. On the other hand, the Sith perspective permits a long-term plan, whose implementation and evident certitude reduces each participant essentially to a machine. This connects to the man versus machine theme fairly directly.

 

[Saul]

In my view Palpatine was clouding the future from the Jedi so they could not see it clearly. But Krell turning to the Dark side and sensing that could see. Yoda and Windu couldn't see it. But maybe those who were corruptible, who had the potential to turn to the dark side i.e. Luke, Anakin, Krell were allowed to see the future (a dark one) by Palpatine.

 

[ReadyAndWilling]

i really like episode 9 of season 1 where the droids board and try to save the viceroy. does anyone know of some other good droid eps? it's great.

 

[Christopher]

In my view Palpatine was clouding the future from the Jedi so they could not see it clearly. But Krell turning to the Dark side and sensing that could see. Yoda and Windu couldn't see it. But maybe those who were corruptible, who had the potential to turn to the dark side i.e. Luke, Anakin, Krell were allowed to see the future (a dark one) by Palpatine.

Yeah, I get what's being proposed, I just find it unappealing and somewhat disturbing as a story point. Giving any characters certain knowledge of the future is a problematical thing in a work of fiction. Prophecy can be a useful fantasy device at times, but it's best dramatically if it's kept as vague and ambiguous as possible, so that the characters' motivations are their own.

Suggesting that some Force-sensitives are able to sense some inkling of future events would be one thing, but saying that every evil Force-sensitive has already been fully spoiled about the plot of Revenge of the Sith? I don't see the appeal.

 

[Mysterion]

By analogy, consider how a soldier thinks of ammunition. If you start out with a lot of ammo, you're willing to shoot off a lot of it if it helps you get closer to victory, even with the full understanding that you won't be getting it back. But as your ammo supplies diminish, you become more selective about what targets you open fire on and don't waste what you have on what you consider the wrong targets.

"You can't have too much ammunition. Or toilet paper." - Mysterion's First Law of Land Warfare

 

[DarKush]

In my view Palpatine was clouding the future from the Jedi so they could not see it clearly. But Krell turning to the Dark side and sensing that could see. Yoda and Windu couldn't see it. But maybe those who were corruptible, who had the potential to turn to the dark side i.e. Luke, Anakin, Krell were allowed to see the future (a dark one) by Palpatine.

Interesting theory. I don't know if I would give Palpatine that much power though. He definitely had the ability to pull the wool over the Jedi Order's eyes, but I have to wonder if the Order's diminished Force abilities came from stagnation. What Bane did was reform the Sith, and it forced them to be far more innovative. In the ROTS novelization, Yoda realized that the Jedi had become soft, for lack of a better word, that they didn't know how to combat Palpatine, and so he retreated to Dagobah.

I was seeing Krell as being like Dooku, IMO. Maybe there was already a predisposition there, something more attuned to the dark side, and that allowed him to sense the dark future coming. It would be great if the show also introduced the Dark Acolytes from the comics, because Krell reminded me of them and would've fit in nicely with them.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Dark_Acolyte

 

[Saul]

In my view Palpatine was clouding the future from the Jedi so they could not see it clearly. But Krell turning to the Dark side and sensing that could see. Yoda and Windu couldn't see it. But maybe those who were corruptible, who had the potential to turn to the dark side i.e. Luke, Anakin, Krell were allowed to see the future (a dark one) by Palpatine.

Yeah, I get what's being proposed, I just find it unappealing and somewhat disturbing as a story point. Giving any characters certain knowledge of the future is a problematical thing in a work of fiction. Prophecy can be a useful fantasy device at times, but it's best dramatically if it's kept as vague and ambiguous as possible, so that the characters' motivations are their own.

Suggesting that some Force-sensitives are able to sense some inkling of future events would be one thing, but saying that every evil Force-sensitive has already been fully spoiled about the plot of Revenge of the Sith? I don't see the appeal.

Well the thing about precognition is that it's not all too accurate. Anakin's vision of what happens to Padme in Episode III doesn't exactly match what happened so whatever a Jedi or Sith might see is only a possible future that they don't have a clear picture of. Although if Krell were to act on those visions of the future it's certainly taking it further than that but I don't think visions alone would turn a Jedi to the dark side.

Interesting theory. I don't know if I would give Palpatine that much power though. He definitely had the ability to pull the wool over the Jedi Order's eyes, but I have to wonder if the Order's diminished Force abilities came from stagnation. What Bane did was reform the Sith, and it forced them to be far more innovative. In the ROTS novelization, Yoda realized that the Jedi had become soft, for lack of a better word, that they didn't know how to combat Palpatine, and so he retreated to Dagobah.

I was seeing Krell as being like Dooku, IMO. Maybe there was already a predisposition there, something more attuned to the dark side, and that allowed him to sense the dark future coming. It would be great if the show also introduced the Dark Acolytes from the comics, because Krell reminded me of them and would've fit in nicely with them.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Dark_Acolyte

I like that idea because Krell seems far greater if he can see more than all the other Jedi. It sucks for the Jedi if they can't see Dark days ahead but maybe that worked against Palpatine too if he couldn't see a brighter future with Vader doing him in.

 

[Set Harth]

I have to wonder if the Order's diminished Force abilities came from stagnation.

The darkness in the Force was no hindrance to the shadow in the Chancellor's office; it was the darkness.

@

 

[DarthPipes]

Good episode on The Clone Wars tonight. It's actually an adaptation of the first storyline for the short-lived Star Wars The Clone Wars comic "Slaves of the Republic." Now I just wish they would adapt The Battle of Jabiim.

Anakin's slave past is FINALLY addressed. It's long overdue.

 

[Set Harth]

I kept saying, "why doesn't [character name] use the Force here?"

For example, they could have used the Force to get rid of the bombs.

And we still never see use of the Force on large creatures. This may be consistent with ROTJ, but I thought size supposedly mattered not.

And it's too bad we didn't actually get to see a lightwhip-saber fight. What a tease.

But at least we know that Obi-Wan can Force-crush droids if he wants to.

 

[timothy]

artillery destroyer driods nice, like regualr ones are'nt bad enough.

 

[DarthPipes]

Well, Obi-Wan was rope-a-doping the slaver to buy Anakin and Ahsoka more time. But I agree that I would really like to see the Jedi, especially Anakin, use the Force more in a fight.

 

[timothy]

I think he use's the force more as vader than as anakin. this was a good ep this week and, I am glad they did'nt take a break this week...

 

[Silvercrest]

Anakin and Ahsoka weren't too bright. The only reason they were disarming those bombs was to save the civilians who were supposedly nearby. They should have noticed something was up when they never saw any civilians. By the time they got to those last two bombs and there were STILL no civilians, there was no need to coordinate their disarming and so on. Just walk away.

 

[Santeria]

Anakin and Ahsoka weren't too bright. The only reason they were disarming those bombs was to save the civilians who were supposedly nearby. They should have noticed something was up when they never saw any civilians. By the time they got to those last two bombs and there were STILL no civilians, there was no need to coordinate their disarming and so on. Just walk away.

You say that as if characters in Star Wars are ever smart. With the exception of R2-D2, I can't think of one that ever has a clue.

I have to agree with some of the other posters that it's very tiresome seeing how inconsistent the Jedi are with their powers. One day they can force jump unbelievable distances, the next a small ravine or cliff is a complete and total obstacle. One day they can squash multiple droids into a pile of spare parts simultaneously with but a thought, the next day (or sometimes the very same episode) they're held back as if the droids were nigh unstoppable. One day they can pierce the Sith veil of the future and reveal much of what's to come in the next four movies, the next no one sees any of it coming.

It's just downright silly.

 

[Christopher]

Maybe the varying effectiveness of Force telekinesis is a matter of how much concentration or energy they can spare at a given moment, or how much willpower is (consciously or unconsciously) resisting them. Maybe the Force has currents and fluctuations on a large scale.