Star Wars:The Clone Wars S3......so far

[Christopher]

We never saw anyone in the detention block except Leia, and no dialogue supports anyone being there besides her. And why would there be? The Death Star is brand new. They hadn't DONE anything yet except fly to Alderaan and blow it up.

On the other hand, when Luke and Han brought in Chewie under the pretense of a "prisoner transfer from block 1138," the detention-center guards didn't seem overly suspicious of the assertion that they already had a Wookiee prisoner in custody. You'd think if the detention center were empty aside from Leia (and maybe the rest of the survivors of the Rebel Blockade Runner), the guards would've already known they had no Wookiee prisoners and would've instantly caught on that it was a trick. It implies that the detention center must've been very full if the guards could believe they'd overlooked a Wookiee.

Of course, the real explanation is that Lucas was just making a bit of Saturday-matinee fun and never expected anyone to put a lot of thought into deconstructing its plot holes, let alone its ethics holes.

So yeah, Luke is directly responsible for the deaths of thousands upon thousands of people. But they were, like, BAD and stuff. So it's okay! They had it coming!

Oh, yeah, I'm sure they only hired evil janitors and plumbers and IT techs. All the Empire's job sourcing was done on the planet Henchmantooine.

 

[Set Harth]

If it wasn't the novelization (though I think it was), it must've been either one of the sequel novelizations, Splinter of the Mind's Eye, the NPR radio adaptations, or the first 2-3 issues of Marvel's comic-book adaptation of the first film.

The way I understand it, it comes from a Lucas magazine interview and could also be hinted at in the ROTJ novel. I thought I'd heard the interview in question was around 1981 but others have said it was in the late 70s. The topic isn't covered in the ANH or TESB novelizations, Splinter, or the first few issues of the ANH comic adaptation.

But it jumps out at you in the PT because the sanitized intent is too obvious.

Some of that can probably be blamed on the usual: intending a PG-13 rating.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

While you have a point, there is a difference. We knew in the OT that there were people behind the masks, although the mask did de-humanize them. But we heard some small talk, etc.

"Horrors of war" in Episode IV:

1) At the beginning when stormtroopers board Leia's starship, the "gray-haired veteran Rebel soldier" dies in a close-up screaming from a laser blast. Note that this occurs in the first infantry battle depicted on screen in the series.

2) We are given a graphic close-up of the barbecued Uncle Owen and Aunt Beru.

3) We get a nice view of the arm Ben severed in the Mos Eisley cantina.

4) In general, one of the nice touches in Episode IV is that "Rebel redshirts" are given a great deal of screen time. Look at all the faces we meet and spend some time with during the final battle over the Death Star. All 'splode in fire except Wedge and some other Y-wing pilot whom we never meet.

True, these are only a small number of examples amidst a great deal of violence. However, I always thought that examples (1)-(3) were put in the film specifically to remind us that there was indeed real violence occurring throughout the whole movie. It was just that the film had no intention of rubbing our faces in it with every laser blast. Example (1) serves as a sequence that establishes the horrors of infantry laser combat. We can assume all other blaster shots inflict as much pain to the victim as we saw on the face of the "gray-haired veteran".

As to the "innocent draftees" serving aboard the Death Star. Anyone whining about that recall what happened to Alderaan? And, do you think the Empire would have stopped blowing up planets if it had blown up the 4th moon of Yavin?

 

[DarthPipes]

So all of two lines, and then he falls into a sinkhole with an appetite. Why the hell does this faceless bit player hold legendary status in fandom while a major antagonist played by the great Peter Cushing is regarded as a "redshirt?"

Because Lucas knows how to promote his material. Example...never in Return of the Jedi is the word Ewok uttered yet everyone watching the film knows that they're Ewoks. The man knows how to promote his product.

 

[DarthPipes]

While you have a point, there is a difference. We knew in the OT that there were people behind the masks, although the mask did de-humanize them. But we heard some small talk, etc.

"Horrors of war" in Episode IV:

1) At the beginning when stormtroopers board Leia's starship, the "gray-haired veteran Rebel soldier" dies in a close-up screaming from a laser blast. Note that this occurs in the first infantry battle depicted on screen in the series.

2) We are given a graphic close-up of the barbecued Uncle Owen and Aunt Beru.

3) We get a nice view of the arm Ben severed in the Mos Eisley cantina.

4) In general, one of the nice touches in Episode IV is that "Rebel redshirts" are given a great deal of screen time. Look at all the faces we meet and spend some time with during the final battle over the Death Star. All 'splode in fire except Wedge and some other Y-wing pilot whom we never meet.

True, these are only a small number of examples amidst a great deal of violence. However, I always thought that examples (1)-(3) were put in the film specifically to remind us that there was indeed real violence occurring throughout the whole movie. It was just that the film had no intention of rubbing our faces in it with every laser blast. Example (1) serves as a sequence that establishes the horrors of infantry laser combat. We can assume all other blaster shots inflict as much pain to the victim as we saw on the face of the "gray-haired veteran".

As to the "innocent draftees" serving aboard the Death Star. Anyone whining about that recall what happened to Alderaan? And, do you think the Empire would have stopped blowing up planets if it had blown up the 4th moon of Yavin?

Exactly. There was no way to take the Death Star by force. It had to be destroyed and by doing so, a major blow was inflicted onto the Empire. It was a kill or be killed situation as well. Not to mention of course the Death Star had just murdered billions of Alderanians.

I will acknowledge that while we don't see the people on Alderaan and the Death Star being killed, the death toll in the original Star Wars is staggering.

 

[Mark_Nguyen]

Oh, yeah, I'm sure they only hired evil janitors and plumbers and IT techs. All the Empire's job sourcing was done on the planet Henchmantooine.

Damn straight they did. More's the point, they have evil DROIDS to do all that menial work. Have we seen ANY labour type jobs done on any Imperial facitlity? Nope.

As for the apparently deserted detention level, who knows? They just blew up a planet, and for all they knew they intercepted a freighter from Kashyyk that was on its way to Alderaan with a load of stylish bandoleers. Theirs is not to to reason why, after all.

However, you COULD get Luke for a variety of animal abuse claims for killing at least one cyclops snake monster. Damn things didn't have a chance.

Mark

 

[CorporalCaptain]

...never in Return of the Jedi is the word Ewok uttered yet everyone watching the film knows that they're Ewoks.

Too true.

 

[Marc]

While you have a point, there is a difference. We knew in the OT that there were people behind the masks, although the mask did de-humanize them. But we heard some small talk, etc.

"Horrors of war" in Episode IV:

1) At the beginning when stormtroopers board Leia's starship, the "gray-haired veteran Rebel soldier" dies in a close-up screaming from a laser blast. Note that this occurs in the first infantry battle depicted on screen in the series.

2) We are given a graphic close-up of the barbecued Uncle Owen and Aunt Beru.

3) We get a nice view of the arm Ben severed in the Mos Eisley cantina.

4) In general, one of the nice touches in Episode IV is that "Rebel redshirts" are given a great deal of screen time. Look at all the faces we meet and spend some time with during the final battle over the Death Star. All 'splode in fire except Wedge and some other Y-wing pilot whom we never meet.

True, these are only a small number of examples amidst a great deal of violence. However, I always thought that examples (1)-(3) were put in the film specifically to remind us that there was indeed real violence occurring throughout the whole movie. It was just that the film had no intention of rubbing our faces in it with every laser blast. Example (1) serves as a sequence that establishes the horrors of infantry laser combat. We can assume all other blaster shots inflict as much pain to the victim as we saw on the face of the "gray-haired veteran".

As to the "innocent draftees" serving aboard the Death Star. Anyone whining about that recall what happened to Alderaan? And, do you think the Empire would have stopped blowing up planets if it had blown up the 4th moon of Yavin?

Exactly. There was no way to take the Death Star by force. It had to be destroyed and by doing so, a major blow was inflicted onto the Empire. It was a kill or be killed situation as well. Not to mention of course the Death Star had just murdered billions of Alderanians.

I will acknowledge that while we don't see the people on Alderaan and the Death Star being killed, the death toll in the original Star Wars is staggering.

Wiki puts the population of Alderaan at the time of it's destruction around the 1.6 billion so add that the to Death Star casualty count and Star Wars depicts over 1.7 billion deaths!

 

[Dac]

This conversation needs to be had over the top of a convenience store counter in order to make it pop culturally relevant, otherwise it's just really sad.

 

[David cgc]

According to wikipedia, the first Death Star had 1,179,293 people on it.

So Luke Skywalker killed 1.18 million people in cold blood

It wasn't in cold blood! The Death Star wasn't just sitting there, minding its own business, waiting for the bus. It was seconds away from destroying the Yavin Moon. It was them or... other them. Pure self-defence.

(Actually, you might be able to argue that it was entrapment, since Leia deliberately led the Death Star to the Rebel Base...)

 

[Christopher]

"Horrors of war" in Episode IV:

1) At the beginning when stormtroopers board Leia's starship, the "gray-haired veteran Rebel soldier" dies in a close-up screaming from a laser blast. Note that this occurs in the first infantry battle depicted on screen in the series.

2) We are given a graphic close-up of the barbecued Uncle Owen and Aunt Beru.

3) We get a nice view of the arm Ben severed in the Mos Eisley cantina.

4) In general, one of the nice touches in Episode IV is that "Rebel redshirts" are given a great deal of screen time. Look at all the faces we meet and spend some time with during the final battle over the Death Star. All 'splode in fire except Wedge and some other Y-wing pilot whom we never meet.

True, but all but one of those are acts committed by the villains. It's standard practice to play up the horrors of the violence committed by the villains by making their innocent victims sympathetic or showing their families' grief, while simultaneously glossing over the violence committed by the heroes by reducing the villains to faceless, depersonalized myrmidons. That way, the audience's sympathies can be firmly with the heroes no matter how many people the heroes are shown to kill.

 

[Mr Light]

How many people on the Death Star were actively complicit with the decision to destroy Yavin IV? Aside from Tarkin?

I've always said it would have been a better move for the Trilogy if blowing the reactor just disabled and damaged the Death Star. This way Luke only kills a few people, and it's the same Death Star in ROTJ, rather than them building another one.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

How many people on the Death Star were actively complicit with the decision to destroy Yavin IV? Aside from Tarkin?

I've always said it would have been a better move for the Trilogy if blowing the reactor just disabled and damaged the Death Star. This way Luke only kills a few people, and it's the same Death Star in ROTJ, rather than them building another one.

And miss out on Vader being an evil bastard with his killing of imperial officers when ever they screwed up which he couldn't do if Tarkin was around, hell no.

 

[Temis the Vorta]

This conversation needs to be had over the top of a convenience store counter in order to make it pop culturally relevant, otherwise it's just really sad.

That's where I've been envisioning this entire thread the whole time.

On the topic, I'd be amiss in not mentioning one of my favorite aspects of the OT, namely the way both Luke and Leia get over immense personal tragedies involving the deaths of their adoptive parents and in Leia's case, her whole frakking planet with unseemly haste. No angsting over loved ones for our resilient sithspawn!

If only their daddy had been so self-contained and/or short-term-memory deficient, the Empire would never have happened in the first place. So did they inherit their charming obliviousness from Padme? Yeah, she did seem to be pretty out of it - marrying their dad for instance.

I've always said it would have been a better move for the Trilogy if blowing the reactor just disabled and damaged the Death Star.

No boom? Me like boom!

True, but all but one of those are acts committed by the villains. It's standard practice to play up the horrors of the violence committed by the villains by making their innocent victims sympathetic or showing their families' grief, while simultaneously glossing over the violence committed by the heroes by reducing the villains to faceless, depersonalized myrmidons. That way, the audience's sympathies can be firmly with the heroes no matter how many people the heroes are shown to kill.

So there was never any reason Lucas had to change the bad guys from hapless draftees to droids. He just needed to show the hapless draftees kicking Ewoks around so we would hate them and want to see them get blowed up real good.

That's the old Star Wars style I'm used to! None of this liberal guilt hand wringing about the bad guys just because they're people too.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

How many people on the Death Star were actively complicit with the decision to destroy Yavin IV? Aside from Tarkin?

I've always said it would have been a better move for the Trilogy if blowing the reactor just disabled and damaged the Death Star. This way Luke only kills a few people, and it's the same Death Star in ROTJ, rather than them building another one.

What are the Rebels supposed to do with the rebuilt Death Star?

The movie is called Star Wars by the way, not Star Let's Stick a Flower in Their Muzzle and Make Everything Work Out With Free Love. k? And, Han shot first.


There were valid reasons to cut the Biggs Darklighter segments, but given the segment reintroduced in the Special Edition, it's fair to consider the dialog about Biggs jumping ship to be more than merely apocryphal, even if Lucas now intends it to have occurred, say, before Leia's ship arrives over Tatooine. From the script we have:

BIGGS: I made some friends at the Academy. (he whispers) ...when our frigate goes to one of the central systems, we're going to jump ship and join the Alliance...

...

LUKE: You're crazy! You could wander around forever trying to find them.

BIGGS: I know it's a long shot, but if I don't find them I'll do what I can on my own... It's what we always talked about. Luke, I'm not going to wait for the Empire to draft me into service. The Rebellion is spreading and I want to be on the right side -- the side I believe in.

Clearly even as far out as Tatooine, it is in the air that the Alliance is gaining momentum. And clearly, part of the point of Star Wars is that doing right often means facing risks.

Maybe some regular draftees were laying over on board when the Death Star went fully operational. Maybe some construction workers didn't get off before it started zipping around the galaxy, disrupting disembarkation plans. And yes, maybe the detention area was too full to sort out during an improvised rescue of a princess while just barely saving their own asses. Then all these died as heroes.

However, on the Empire's flagship Wonder of Evil, it strains imagination that even the janitors stationed there weren't screened to make sure they all reflexively thought "Scum!" whenever they saw a Rebel. Those died as villains.

And those who didn't jump ship, those who just went along and followed orders, who were myrmidons, they were complicit. They chose the side they thought was best, or that they thought would give them personally the best chances. They would have gone on with their lives while the Death Star was going around blowing up planets, slaughtering billions, and so tough cookie for them that the Rebels won. That was the lot they chose.


It was evil that forced the Rebels to the point of having to fight the Death Star, not the Rebels who were evil for fighting the Death Star, for God's sake.

 

[Temis the Vorta]

There's no way to know for sure what the Empire's conscription policy was like, but I doubt they got recruits because of their great dental plan. I'm sure more than a few of those guys were dragged away from home at blaster-point or their families were threatened, worlds were expected to provide X number of recruits, etc. That would all be consistent with Sith managerial philosophies.

But that's okay, Luke was right to blow them up anyway. You don't defeat Evil Empires by being coy about it!

 

[Christopher]

The bottom line is, nobody was ever meant to analyze the ethical ramifications of the climax of the movie. White hat kills black hats, big kaboom makes audience go Oooooohhh, everybody cheers and goes home. It was a turn-off-your-brain popcorn movie, an homage to 1930s adventure serials. That's all Lucas ever intended to make back in the '70s. He had no idea it would become as influential as it did.

 

[Mr Light]

If Luke was just some soldier it's not a problem... but he's a fledgling Jedi Knight. Shouldn't murdering 1.18 million people have instantly turned him to the Dark Side?

 

[David cgc]

^I don't think that's how it works.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

If Luke was just some soldier it's not a problem... but he's a fledgling Jedi Knight. Shouldn't murdering 1.18 million people have instantly turned him to the Dark Side?

What murder? No court in the galaxy would have found Luke's actions unlawful. Even the Emperor did not want to convict Luke.

If you meant instead 'killing' the answer is 'no'.