Star Wars:The Clone Wars S3......so far

[TV's Frank]

It's now finally clear why Anakin later "falls" for Palps' manipulations. He didn't fall for them at all. He already knew what he was capable of, and must have been looking around for a long time, wondering how to put his power to use. Like I said, they now have 2 1/2 years to make the situation around Anakin spiral more and more out of control. By the time we get to the events of ROTS, his fall will not be a WTF head-scratcher but an inevitability. It is going to be a very interesting 2 1/2 years.

The hilarious thing is, this is the most important part of the prequel story. And Lucas didn't put it in the movies! Without this, the story makes zero sense. I guess we'll never know whether Lucas didn't think it was important, or maybe it was Dave Filoni's idea all along (I'm leaning towards the latter), but either way, I don't care. As long as TCW makes sense, that works for me.

At least they dispensed with the silly notion that Anakin fell because he was in a panic about Padme dying. That just made him look like a ninny. Now we know that was just the final straw in a very large pile of hay. The true reason was that he sees chaos all around him, unending war, personal problems, everything is massively frakked up, and he's the one guy in the cosmos who can put it right.

Really? Anakin's turn in the movies always worked for me. I personally never found this silly, but very human. It could just be my own experiences, but I lost my father very suddenly when I was the age Anakin was in AOTC. Therefore, when I got married 9 years later I could also understand his fear over losing this person who has become his entire world, a person he made his entire family, even if that's not a very emotionally healthy decision. And it made it very difficult to end that marriage when it went all wrong. I always liked the fact that Anakin turned to the dark side due to these fears and his need to have the power to control the future and never let go of anyone else in his life. And this was all due to losing his mother's sudden death in AOTC, which led to fear over losing his wife. Maybe it's just me, but I found this compelling and something to which I could relate.

 

[Admiral_Young]

For me it was never the reasons behind Anakin's turn...it was always the portrayal and execution of it.

 

[Gepard]

Well, well, well. I don't know where to begin, so I'll just say the first thing that popped into my mind after this was over: Anakin wiping out the Jedi, joining the dark side, then turning back and destroying the Sith were all required for him to bring balance to the Force. At the end, the Father essentially confirmed that wiping out the current representatives of both sides of the Force – and essentially washing away the old guard on both sides – had brought balance on Mortis, and then said that he would do the same thing for the galaxy. This entire Mortis arc was a microcosm of the six Star Wars films, symbolically handing us the key to interpreting them. Very tidy.

 

[timothy]

I loved this trilogy . It was a great story and I am looking forward to next weeks new trilogy with tarkin . as for the ds2 it was probably started when the first one was half way done and the superstar destroyer was nearly finished . I mean it took at least thirty years to develop the first one . and that was by papa palpatine in super secrete mode. I would also love to see animated series with the oriiginal charachters . and maybe even one durring the old republic as well .

currently reading star wars knight errant and tales of the slayer vol. 2
currently watching smallville season 4 and supernatural season 4

 

[Greylock Crescent]

Definitely wasn't a "reset." I do like how Father removed Anakin's knowledge of the future, though -- it allows Anakin to have his choices "unclouded' by any foreknowledge -- essentially making sure that Anakin behaves as naturally as possible when he faces those galaxy-altering decisions in ROTS. I do wonder about the non-linear nature of Mortis, though, and whether or not the actions on (in?) Mortis influenced the past (AOTC), present (TCW), and future (ROTS and beyond).

This three-part arc was, truly, epic. The final shots of Mortis's collapse, along with the soaring musical score, were just incredible to behold.

Why, oh why, do we not have an official soundtrack for the TV show yet?

 

[fett51]

WTF, that wasn't a "reset" - Anakin, Obi-Wan and Ahsoka all remember what happened (Anakin's comment at the end shows he definitely does) and most importantly, he remembers that he is the Chosen One and was able to control both the Dark and Light Sides of the Force, and what it means to have that control.

Yeah, but the entire Father/Son/Daughter Balance of Mortis plotline got a big fat reset, as did their advertised change to Anakin's destiny. They told arguably the biggest story they ever have and it had no consequences beyond how it affects Anakin's psychology, and "chosen one" meaning this makes his actions even more inexplicable, he knew the dark side was dominant, and what he had to do as chosen one was wipe out the Sith, and he didn't do it for 20-some years.

I guess we'll never know whether Lucas didn't think it was important, or maybe it was Dave Filoni's idea all along

All Lucas. Filoni said in his commentary on Overlords he actually wasn't in the room when Lucas was pitching these episodes.

Even his demand to join the Jedi Council, which seemed like a tantrum of a spoiled brat in ROTS, now can be interpreted as justifiable. But again, ROTS is now wrong, because why didn't Obi-Wan understand why Anakin was making that demand? And why didn't Obi-Wan report everything that happened in these episodes to the Jedi Council? Did they think the three of them had a shared hallucination and it wasn't worth bothering anyone with? There's no way around it, they need to do their own TCW version of ROTS now, and tie the whole story up in its own internal continuity.

He got bratty about not being called a master, he wanted on the council but he didn't kick into whiney-Anakin mode about that as far as I can remember. As for Obi-wan telling the council, he does say Anakin is the chosen one, Mace admits he is right, but Yoda is concerned they've misinterpreted the prophecy.

 

[Christopher]

Yeah, but the entire Father/Son/Daughter Balance of Mortis plotline got a big fat reset, as did their advertised change to Anakin's destiny. They told arguably the biggest story they ever have and it had no consequences beyond how it affects Anakin's psychology, and "chosen one" meaning this makes his actions even more inexplicable, he knew the dark side was dominant, and what he had to do as chosen one was wipe out the Sith, and he didn't do it for 20-some years.

No, the dominance of the dark side within Mortis was resolved when the Son was killed. And the Father told Anakin that just as he restored balance within Mortis, he would do it again out in the galaxy.

What's insidious about the dark side is that it can even sway people whose motives are good -- Luke abandoning his training with Yoda to save Han and Leia, Anakin becoming Vader to save Padme. Here, it was Anakin's desire to prevent the rise of the Emperor in his vision (whom he clearly didn't recognize as his mentor Palpatine, even before the memory wipe) that made him susceptible to tainting by the Son. Because his desire to do good made him crave power, and the craving for power is the path to the dark side. The road to Hell is paved with good intentions.

 

[Temis the Vorta]

They told arguably the biggest story they ever have and it had no consequences beyond how it affects Anakin's psychology, and "chosen one" meaning this makes his actions even more inexplicable, he knew the dark side was dominant, and what he had to do as chosen one was wipe out the Sith, and he didn't do it for 20-some years.

I think it does help explain his actions. When he was darksided, he said he wanted to use his powers to end the Clone Wars. If the situation with the war gets even worse over the next 2 1/2 seasons, then this idea will manifest itself again, regardless of the amnesia, because it's not a product of the Dark Side, but rather a product of how Anakin thinks. The purpose of the future visions was foreshadowing for the benefit of the audience, so we know what's coming even if Anakin doesn't.

It's interesting that the Dark Side doesn't necessarily require selfishness - Anakin's instinct was still to carry out what he saw was his duty. If as Vader he's still carrying out what he sees as his duty, then that's a consistent through-line for the character that allows Anakin and Vader to be seen as the same character, at the core. The total disconnect between PT Anakin and Vader is yet another problem that TCW has now resolved. They just keep knockin' them down!

The clever thing here is that the taoist philosophy underpinning Star Wars is now at the center of the story. Anakin knows he needs to "balance the Force." He has a vague idea that this involves controlling both Dark and Light Sides, that he alone is powerful enough to do so, and therefore the rules the Jedi have constructed for themselves don't apply to him.

This isn't arrogance or delusion like it appeared in the PT. It's the inescapable conclusion of what he's experienced. Not only is it okay for him to dabble in the Dark Side, he has the obligation to do so, for everyone's sakes.

The Jedi are so mired in their incomplete and flawed understanding of the Force - with a goal of totally wiping out the Dark Side, rather than keeping it in balance with the Light - that they might not even understand what Anakin needs to do. If they try to stop him, he has to fight them, regardless of the cost. The whole universe depends on it.

What the arc reveals is that Anakin wasn't motivated by fear, hate, etc but by a sense of duty. That is consistent with his personality as he's been depicted. I think story is basically the Icarus myth - a mortal given too much power who is destroyed by it, without having to be a "bad guy."

That's a big change from the original depiction of him as a psychologically broken child-man who is so driven by his fears that he's helpless pawn in the story. It places Star Wars back firmly in the realm of myth, which is where it belongs. And it is a far, far, far better story! It's a grand mythic tragedy about a good and noble man who struggles heroically to do what is right, and finally succeeds in the end, instead of a stupid story about a disgusting whiny idiot who gets what he deserves.

But since "wiping out the Sith" doesn't balance the Force (unless he also wipes out the Jedi), then ROTJ no longer makes sense. Luke is still around and presumably goes on to re-establish the Jedi, which just fraks things up all over again. Maybe TCW should just keep rolling on, through ROTS, through the 20 year interval to ANH, and keep going until they can revise ROTJ so that Anakin really does fulfill his destiny in that story, or it turns out the baton needs to be handed off to Luke and they keep going with the story even after that. I'm game for that! The only part of the whole saga they should keep pretty much as-is are ANH and ESB.

Filoni said in his commentary on Overlords he actually wasn't in the room when Lucas was pitching these episodes.

Well the guy does need to keep on the boss' good side. But for Filoni to be making up stuff that fills in between the blanks of the existing story so perfectly would require writing skill of supernatural proportions. If this was the story Lucas intended all along, it's really a shame that he didn't succeed with the PT, because it could have been magnificent! At least he's making up for it now.

As for Obi-wan telling the council, he does say Anakin is the chosen one, Mace admits he is right, but Yoda is concerned they've misinterpreted the prophecy.

I really hope they depict Obi-Wan, Anakin and Ahsoka delivering their report to the Jedi Council and show us the reaction because there isn't much room for quibbling now. The Jedi Council definitely should understand that Anakin is the Chosen One, and the prophecy means balancing the Force, not wiping out the Sith. The Jedi need to understand that their assumptions have now been upended.

The problem here is, Yoda et al are not so close-minded and unimaginative that they would reject these ideas out of hand, yet if they don't, then the story really doesn't work. Anakin has to be the only guy who understands what he must do, despite Jedi opposition. He no longer needs to be depicted as a dolt, but now the doltishness must fall on the Jedi Council, which is no better of a "solution." Not at all sure how they plan to finesse that.

Because his desire to do good made him crave power, and the craving for power is the path to the dark side.

Yeah, that's exactly it. That's the solution to the problem of how to get a good character to do bad things without making him stupid or insane. It seems so obvious now! The ancient Greeks were doing this story millenia ago!

For me it was never the reasons behind Anakin's turn...it was always the portrayal and execution of it.

There's a way to make the original PT story work - a psychologically damaged guy who lashes out at the world because he can't take the stresses imposed on him - but it's just not Star Wars, which should be grounded in mythology, not psychology. The TCW story feels more true to Star Wars to me.

And there's the additional problem that the psychological story was so bungled anyway. We should feel sympathy for the guy, but he was portrayed so doltishly that I felt nothing but contempt. For starters, they needed to hire a more charismatic and likable actor, who could pull it off - along the lines of Michael C. Hall in Dexter, who makes even a serial killer sympathetic. It's definitely the type of role that must be very carefully cast.

Here's something I'm curious about: did Mortis take place only in the characters' minds, on some kind of astral plane (a real experience, but in which only their minds and not their bodies participated)? Or did they really land on a planet that existed outside our timestream, and their ship was spat back out of the diamond-thingy and ended up exactly where they originally were, with apparently no passage of time?

Because if it was the former, what was all that business about the Son needing the ship to escape? If it was astral-plane stuff, there was nowhere for him to go! Was that metaphorical, and he was trying to "escape" via Anakin's mind?

And since the Force has been revealed to have a will, could it be that the Force was using Mortis to communicate to Anakin what it wanted him to do, in the only way it knew how, by creating three characters who are manifestations of itself, and having them enact a drama that convinces Anakin of his duty and demonstrates what he must do when he returns to his own reality?

 

[fett51]

No, the dominance of the dark side within Mortis was resolved when the Son was killed. And the Father told Anakin that just as he restored balance within Mortis, he would do it again out in the galaxy.

Yeah, so Mortis goes back to being balanced like it was before they screwed it up last episode.

Because his desire to do good made him crave power, and the craving for power is the path to the dark side. The road to Hell is paved with good intentions.

And these episodes showed us he knew the whole time he had the power to balance the force. Which brings us right back to the only thing he needs from Palpatine being a way to save Padme.

If the situation with the war gets even worse over the next 2 1/2 seasons, then this idea will manifest itself again, regardless of the amnesia, because it's not a product of the Dark Side, but rather a product of how Anakin thinks.

Yeah, and I recall Palps giving the same speech about bringing peace in RotS. As a lot of people picked up on this time, joining the dark side to stop the dark side is idiotic.

The Jedi Council definitely should understand that Anakin is the Chosen One, and the prophecy means balancing the Force, not wiping out the Sith. The Jedi need to understand that their assumptions have now been upended.

Except per AotC the force is already unbalanced in favor of the dark side, so in this case balancing the force does mean stopping Palpatine at least. Anakin knows this, and when he does find out who Palpatine is, he makes the imbalance way worse.

 

[Greylock Crescent]

WTF, that wasn't a "reset" - Anakin, Obi-Wan and Ahsoka all remember what happened (Anakin's comment at the end shows he definitely does) and most importantly, he remembers that he is the Chosen One and was able to control both the Dark and Light Sides of the Force, and what it means to have that control.

Yeah, but the entire Father/Son/Daughter Balance of Mortis plotline got a big fat reset, as did their advertised change to Anakin's destiny. They told arguably the biggest story they ever have and it had no consequences beyond how it affects Anakin's psychology,

The whole point of the PT was to explore the psychological reasons why Anakin fell to the Dark Side, so a story which affects his psychological makeup is certainly not without consequence. Quite the opposite. Anakin is now much more aware of not only his destiny, but his ability to affect change. The only thing he doesn't know is how or when he must use his abilities ... or what consequences his choices might have.

And I don't know where you come off saying that "the entire Father/Son/Daughter Balance of Mortis plotline got a big fat reset" ... just because they all died? That's the embodiment of Anakin's destiny to bring balance to the Force -- balance through mutual destruction. Might as well call the entire Saga a reset, since both the Jedi and Sith are wiped out by the end of ROTJ.

The only "reset" was to clear Anakin's foreknowledge of the future which, as I pointed out above, means that he's free to choose his destiny without any outside influences -- Father gives Anakin the chance to face his destiny without being influenced by prior knowledge of his choices, or the potential consequences of those choices.

 

[Temis the Vorta]

Yeah, and I recall Palps giving the same speech about bringing peace in RotS. As a lot of people picked up on this time, joining the dark side to stop the dark side is idiotic.

Well I found Anakin's actions in the PT to be idiotic in general. Honestly I can't remember the details of ROTS and I can guarantee that I will never, ever, ever watch it again because I love TCW Anakin and don't want my memories of any other performance to impinge.

Maybe ROTS had Anakin joining the Dark Side rather than trying to balance anything, but if so, that's just flat-out wrong. He shouldn't be "joining" either side. He should be looking for ways to control both sides. He should regard Palps as a potential pawn just as Palps regards him the same way.

The scenes between Palps and Anakin could be very interesting if Anakin has been fishing around for a while, years maybe, trying to find a means of controlling the Dark Side on the galactic level. How would you go about that, anyway? If he gets wind that Palps may know something about the Dark Side, he might be the one to start the conversation.

Or maybe he just asks Palps' advice because he's a wise old man, maybe doesn't know anything about the Force, but his goals are the same as Anakin's, trying to bring about peace and happiness for all. But when Palps reveals he's a Sith, Anakin should see that as an opportunity to pursue his own agenda by using Palps, and certainly not just blindly go along with whatever he says.

The whole point of the PT was to explore the psychological reasons why Anakin fell to the Dark Side, so a story which affects his psychological makeup is certainly not without consequence. Quite the opposite. Anakin is now much more aware of not only his destiny, but his ability to affect change. The only thing he doesn't know is how or when he must use his abilities ... or what consequences his choices might have.

Which is why the Mortis trilogy is the most important part of the story. The real story takes place in Anakin's mind. Pre-Mortis, he's a Jedi, happily going along with Jedi plans. Post-Mortis, he's on his own because he knows more than Jedi or Sith. He's the only one in the story who knows what really must be done. The Jedi are trying to stop the Sith because it seems to be the right thing to do. The Sith just want power. They're both wrong. Anakin has now been elevated above the Jedi-Sith conflict. He is the only character who has the potential to do what is right, in a larger, cosmic sense.

The days when Palps seemed like the main character because he was the only one with a goal to pro-actively pursue are now over. Anakin has now truly stepped into the lead role in this story, as it should have been all along.

I'm curious about how the Dark Side was depicted in the Mortis arc. It came off as total mind control, both in Ahsoka and Anakin's cases. The Son really didn't say anything that could have convinced Anakin so quickly. I think Anakin is going to need a lot more long-term convincing over the coming seasons, if the Dark Side isn't to come off as just mind control, which implies all the darksiders are mere helpless pawns. Are Palps, Dooku and Ventress all nice people who are victims of the Dark Side? Can't say that feels right. It shouldn't be like being assimilated by the Borg.

So maybe the Son was just so overwhelmingly powerful that he's able to control normal people's minds totally with a touch. He bit Ahsoka and I think he touched Anakin on the shoulder (I'll have to go back and check) before he went all squirrely too. Palps should definitely not be able to do anything like that (or else why hasn't he by now?)

 

[fett51]

The whole point of the PT was to explore the psychological reasons why Anakin fell to the Dark Side, so a story which affects his psychological makeup is certainly not without consequence.

Yes it was, but given the scale of these episodes I wanted more than just "Anakin goes into the cave on Dagobah." Particularly so given knowing what he has to do, when RotS rolls around he screws everything up spectacularly and the force is even more unbalanced for 20+ years.

And I don't know where you come off saying that "the entire Father/Son/Daughter Balance of Mortis plotline got a big fat reset" ... just because they all died? That's the embodiment of Anakin's destiny to bring balance to the Force -- balance through mutual destruction. Might as well call the entire Saga a reset, since both the Jedi and Sith are wiped out by the end of ROTJ.

First, Luke is still kicking at the end of RotJ, with instructions from Yoda to pass on what he learned, so it was not mutual destruction. Second, both at the beginning and end of this trilogy the Mortis was balanced, that they all died I would say is the only change as a result of our characters involvement, and it's not one that appears to have had an effect on the rest of the story, hence my frustration.

Or maybe he just asks Palps' advice because he's a wise old man, maybe doesn't know anything about the Force, but his goals are the same as Anakin's, trying to bring about peace and happiness for all. But when Palps reveals he's a Sith, Anakin should see that as an opportunity to pursue his own agenda by using Palps, and certainly not just blindly go along with whatever he says.

He did intend to kill Palpatine and take over, but apparently gives up on it until Luke shows up.

Don't get me wrong, I would love it if they could push Anakin's fall into greek tragedy territory, but unless Lucas adopts one of your rewrites that's sadly not going to happen.

 

[Temis the Vorta]

If Lucas really is the driving force behind the rewrites so far (and he's at least approving them), then maybe he does plan to rewrite the whole thing. If he wants it all to make sense as a coherent whole, he's got to, because it doesn't make sense now and is making less sense all the time.

However, I can see how it could make sense. What if ROTJ's ending includes Anakin's dying warning to Luke not to start the cycle all over again by resurrecting the Jedi, but for whatever reason Luke feels like he has to do just that (big threat to the newly revived Republic or some such).

At the end of ROTJ, Anakin has finally achieved wisdom and paid for it with his life, but that's no guarantee that his wet-behind-the-ears kid has the same knowledge. Luke hasn't gone through the same experiences, so he couldn't. How ironic if ROTJ ends with Anakin the hero and Luke the accidental villain.

The only part of the whole saga I'd leave along are ANH and ESB. They're definitely fine the way they are, and ironically enough, they don't depict anything of key significance to the story. The important parts are in TCW, ROTS and ROTJ. The one important part is Luke realizing that Vader is his father, which leaves open the possibility that Vader isn't the villain he thinks he is, but at the time, Luke is a long way from that knowledge and seems to come to the conclusion that Anakin needs to be saved, rather than suspecting that there's a much bigger story here than simple good vs evil.

He did intend to kill Palpatine and take over, but apparently gives up on it until Luke shows up.

There needs to be a lot more development of those ideas. Exactly how did Anakin intend to use what he learned on Mortis to overthrow Palps? Why didn't he realize the Dark Side might control his mind so fully that he would be helpless to enact whatever he'd planned - he saw that it had total control over Ahsoka. As far as he knows, that could happen to him. (And Ahsoka saw that Anakin was controlled by the Dark Side - didn't she or Obi-Wan tell him about that?)

As for why he doesn't go after Palps after ROTS, I figure that's just the near-total mind control that the Dark Side is capable of. The real question is why Anakin didn't anticipate that effect and come up with a plan to avoid it. His goal is to control the Dark Side, and he has plenty of warning that it could easily control him. I want to see the story revised taking all this new information into consideration.

 

[Greylock Crescent]

Yes it was, but given the scale of these episodes I wanted more than just "Anakin goes into the cave on Dagobah." Particularly so given knowing what he has to do, when RotS rolls around he screws everything up spectacularly and the force is even more unbalanced for 20+ years.

First, Luke is still kicking at the end of RotJ, with instructions from Yoda to pass on what he learned, so it was not mutual destruction. Second, both at the beginning and end of this trilogy the Mortis was balanced, that they all died I would say is the only change as a result of our characters involvement, and it's not one that appears to have had an effect on the rest of the story, hence my frustration.

Well, if you wanted more from these episodes, that's your business ... though I cannot possibly fathom how this arc came up short in its mythic and symbolic depiction of Anakin's role in bringing balance to the Force within galaxy. But even so, that's a far cry from this story being "reset" in any way, shape or form (beyond removing Anakin's foreknowledge). Heck, the presence of Anakin leads to more than just "balance" on Mortis ... the whole place is destroyed by the end of the episode.

Besides, we all wanted some kind of exploration of what it means to bring balance to the force ... and we got it. Anakin could achieve balance by either maintaining a state of continual conflict (as symbolized by Father's intention to have Anakin remain on Mortis as an arbiter between Son and Daughter) or he could achieve balance by wiping out both sides of the conflict.

And as this last episode makes crystal clear: Anakin wants to avoid conflict, despite how necessary conflict and tension are -- how unavoidable they are, really. It's Anakin's desire to find a quick fix (joining Brother and Palpatine) which brings about mutual destruction, instead of a lasting, but tenuous tension.

These are rather explicit answers from a franchise which has, until now at least, been very circumspect about the meaning of "The Chosen One" and "Balance of the Force".

 

[Temis the Vorta]

They've got 2 1/2 more seasons to fill. There is plenty of time to delve more into the ideas broached in this arc. If anything, the challenge will be to keep the mystical plotline moving forward without leaving it fallow for too long on the one hand or overexposing it on the other.

Besides, we all wanted some kind of exploration of what it means to bring balance to the force ... and we got it. Anakin could achieve balance by either maintaining a state of continual conflict (as symbolized by Father's intention to have Anakin remain on Mortis as an arbiter between Son and Daughter) or he could achieve balance by wiping out both sides of the conflict.

I want a scene where Anakin and Obi-Wan tell the Jedi Council exactly that! There's no excuse for them keeping it some kind of secret. An unending conflict is obviously unpleasant for both the Jedi and all the innocent bystanders of the galaxy, so the only rational choice is for the Jedi to wipe out the Sith and then disband. I assume that ceasing to be Jedi will do the trick. If the problem is not their actions but their existence, then we have a worse problem: they'll have to commit suicide and leave strict instructions that all Force users who are born must henceforth be immediately killed.

It's Anakin's desire to find a quick fix (joining Brother and Palpatine) which brings about mutual destruction, instead of a lasting, but tenuous tension.

That boy needs to think things through - and it's all new to him, so of course he's making mistakes now - but when he stops to think about it, he'll realize his role is not to join either side but to control or eradicate both.

Well they advertised answers to big questions this season and they sure are delivering.

 

[Christopher]

Yes it was, but given the scale of these episodes I wanted more than just "Anakin goes into the cave on Dagobah." Particularly so given knowing what he has to do, when RotS rolls around he screws everything up spectacularly and the force is even more unbalanced for 20+ years.

Or maybe the events of those 20 years were necessary to bring about the ultimate restoration of balance. It's a common concept in fiction and in sociological/historical theory that it may require a cataclysm clearing away the decadent old order and an interregnum period before a healthy new order can re-emerge.

First, Luke is still kicking at the end of RotJ, with instructions from Yoda to pass on what he learned, so it was not mutual destruction.

It is if the mutual destruction was specifically of the old guard, as suggested above. Luke represents a new generation of Jedi. He wasn't raised from childhood with Jedi doctrines and traditions, and so maybe he isn't as ossified and limited as the previous generations of Jedi. Sure, he learned from the old guard, but only after his core values and character had been formed, so he has the potential to bring something new, to revitalize the Jedi.

 

[ALF]

I'm about to check out the final chapter of the Mortis arc... can't say that I'm wild about the concept, I find the whole force planet, father son daughter thing a little goofy.

It looks great (execution) as always but I don't know if there will be any rewatchability in this. Anyway, I'll reserve judgment until the end but.... it feels goofy.

Having said that, it's been a while since we've had Anakin/ObiWan/Ahsoka all together on the same "mission" so I am digging that... there was a spell a while back I thought they'd written Obi Wan out of the series.

 

[fett51]

Well, if you wanted more from these episodes, that's your business ... though I cannot possibly fathom how this arc came up short in its mythic and symbolic depiction of Anakin's role in bringing balance to the Force within galaxy. But even so, that's a far cry from this story being "reset" in any way, shape or form (beyond removing Anakin's foreknowledge). Heck, the presence of Anakin leads to more than just "balance" on Mortis ... the whole place is destroyed by the end of the episode.

I read that as all the force power the family was using to keep the place how they wanted dissipating (and the Jedi being thrown back out as a result), not the whole world going up. I don't contest it was a very well written/directed way of expositing on the nature of the force and the chosen one (wouldn't have used the year of hell gif if I didn't like these eps a lot), I'm just annoyed they went to showing us a huge, cosmic scale conflict that ended up having no more consequence than Luke going into the cave. Maybe even less given remembering that vision in RotJ made Luke pull himself back from the dark side, whereas Anakin completely screws up in RotS in spite of what he learns here.

I want a scene where Anakin and Obi-Wan tell the Jedi Council exactly that! There's no excuse for them keeping it some kind of secret. An unending conflict is obviously unpleasant for both the Jedi and all the innocent bystanders of the galaxy, so the only rational choice is for the Jedi to wipe out the Sith and then disband. I assume that ceasing to be Jedi will do the trick. If the problem is not their actions but their existence, then we have a worse problem: they'll have to commit suicide and leave strict instructions that all Force users who are born must henceforth be immediately killed.

All force users are supposed to be at least registered by the Jedi but it obviously does not work in practice. Even if it did, if they ran into another backwater like Dathomir with it's own brand of force-powered elite the whole galaxy would be screwed all over again. What the Jedi could do is all go to some remote planet and not leave it unless the force started going out of whack. Keeping the conflict balanced I think is the only long-term solution, getting rid of both sides may stabilize it short term but it's not sustainable. As for their actions as of TCW the dark side is dominant, so they should be doing what they are: trying to fight it.

Or maybe the events of those 20 years were necessary to bring about the ultimate restoration of balance. It's a common concept in fiction and in sociological/historical theory that it may require a cataclysm clearing away the decadent old order and an interregnum period before a healthy new order can re-emerge.

Except Anakin's apparent motivation for changing back was his son was getting tortured to death in front of him, not timing. If it was time, why didn't he take Luke up on turning back and getting rid of the Emperor in RotJ? Instead he brought Luke before the Emperor to be corrupted (after trying to corrupt Luke himself in ESB), which would have completely screwed everything.

It is if the mutual destruction was specifically of the old guard, as suggested above. Luke represents a new generation of Jedi. He wasn't raised from childhood with Jedi doctrines and traditions, and so maybe he isn't as ossified and limited as the previous generations of Jedi. Sure, he learned from the old guard, but only after his core values and character had been formed, so he has the potential to bring something new, to revitalize the Jedi.

And turn them into what? Gray Jedi? Luke didn't seem to have that in him.

 

[Christopher]

Or maybe the events of those 20 years were necessary to bring about the ultimate restoration of balance. It's a common concept in fiction and in sociological/historical theory that it may require a cataclysm clearing away the decadent old order and an interregnum period before a healthy new order can re-emerge.

Except Anakin's apparent motivation for changing back was his son was getting tortured to death in front of him, not timing.

I'm not talking about his motivations. Not by a long shot. That's not how prophecy works. It was destiny/history/the Force that dictated that events should unfold in this way; Anakin/Vader simply played his part for his own personal reasons, not cognizant of the greater role he was playing in the unfolding of destiny. Individuals rarely have a grasp of the true impact their actions will have upon the shape of history.

If it was time, why didn't he take Luke up on turning back and getting rid of the Emperor in RotJ? Instead he brought Luke before the Emperor to be corrupted (after trying to corrupt Luke himself in ESB), which would have completely screwed everything.

But that's the point. Vader couldn't just decide to overcome his corruption, because the dark side is powerful, addictive. He had to reach that point the hard way, by going through all the experiences of his life that led up to that moment. He couldn't overcome the darkness dominating the galaxy until he overcame the darkness within himself, and he couldn't do that until the confrontation between his son and his emperor showed him what he'd become, and that confrontation couldn't happen until Luke was an adult and a Jedi. Hence, the ultimate fulfillment of the prophecy required the passage of time.

And turn them into what? Gray Jedi? Luke didn't seem to have that in him.

Balance isn't necessarily a perpetual state. The universe is too dynamic for that. Restoring balance can simply mean resetting the board, allowing a fresh beginning. It doesn't guarantee that the balance will remain. (Think of it like walking on a tightrope. You're always a little imbalanced and struggling to keep the imbalance to a minimum. If the imbalance reaches the tipping point, you fall off. Then you climb back on and start again, but you're still struggling to minimize imbalance, the same as before.)

And I still think it's too simplistic to assume the balance of the Force is as simple as having equal numbers on the light and dark sides or whatever. The imbalance was the old, ossified system that failed to prevent Palpatine from tipping things over to a state of absolute monarchy and galactic domination by the dark side. Luke's new Jedi don't have to be "gray" to be healthier, more capable of maintaining balance, than the old Jedi order. It just has to be fresher, more flexible, less complacent and set in its ways.

 

[Greylock Crescent]

Well, if you wanted more from these episodes, that's your business ... though I cannot possibly fathom how this arc came up short in its mythic and symbolic depiction of Anakin's role in bringing balance to the Force within galaxy. But even so, that's a far cry from this story being "reset" in any way, shape or form (beyond removing Anakin's foreknowledge). Heck, the presence of Anakin leads to more than just "balance" on Mortis ... the whole place is destroyed by the end of the episode.

I read that as all the force power the family was using to keep the place how they wanted dissipating (and the Jedi being thrown back out as a result), not the whole world going up. I don't contest it was a very well written/directed way of expositing on the nature of the force and the chosen one (wouldn't have used the year of hell gif if I didn't like these eps a lot), I'm just annoyed they went to showing us a huge, cosmic scale conflict that ended up having no more consequence than Luke going into the cave. Maybe even less given remembering that vision in RotJ made Luke pull himself back from the dark side, whereas Anakin completely screws up in RotS in spite of what he learns here.

That's the tragedy of it all, though, innit? Anakin learns about his destiny, about what kind of role he is able to play in the fate of the galaxy, is given a profound lesson ... and he still royally screws it all up. After his "failure" on Mortis, Anakin ought to learned not to take the quick and easy way. But that's not what Anakin is destined to do as an agent for profound change in the Star Wars galaxy. That's classic tragedy.

This arc illustrates it: Anakin, because he fears losing those he loves flatly rejects being an arbiter of eternal conflict and all-too-quickly allies himself with whatever he thinks will bring a swift end to to that conflict. The problem is that turning away from the difficult and self-sacrificing role of arbiter (letting go of everything he loves) results in tragedy, in mutual destruction: for Father/Son/Daughter/Mortis and Jedi/Sith.

Considering what we know about Anakin's fate, I'm still not sure what else you could have wanted from this story line. With the Mortis arc, particularly with Father's dying words, we are given a very clear exploration of why Anakin, despite the opportunity to learn from his mistakes, still chooses the wrong path. That provides a great deal of depth that wasn't evident before these episodes.