Star Wars:The Clone Wars S3......so far

[P0sitr0nic]

I'm curious about one thing: are good and evil being in balance actually part of taoism? Does that philosophy actually hold that you shouldn't wipe out evil from the face of the earth if it were theoretically possible to do so?

Or does evil emerge only from the imbalance of other forces in the universe? For instance, destruction isn't evil per se, because it can clear a path for growth that wouldn't happen otherwise. If there's no creation to balance destruction, only then is destruction bad.

Which means that the Dark Side is not itself evil. It becomes evil if it's the only game in town, but you could say the same about the Light Side.

Which further means that the Sith are evil not because they follow the Dark Side but because they want to wipe out the Light Side - seeking imbalance makes them evil. And if the Jedi wanted to wipe out the Dark Side, which it seems they do, then they are just as evil as the Sith.

If that was Anakin's rationale for joining the Sith - it's no worse than being a Jedi, and the only way to be "good" is to seek balance - then I can actually see his point! He was the only person, Sith or Jedi, who was taking proactive steps to right the terrible imbalance of too many Jedi and not enough Sith that was causing havoc in the galaxy!

It is only possible for light to shine brightly when surrounded by darkness.

The problem of the Sith are they twist the force to their own will, instead of following the path set that will benefit all.

 

[Temis the Vorta]

But selfishness isn't the issue. Balance is. Only imbalance causes evil.

If selfishness causes imbalance (because you only think about yourself and not the big picture) then, yeah, it's evil, but only because of its result. Love could cause imbalance, and then love would be evil!

The real question here is whether the various things that are supposed to be evil in and of themselves - selfishness, attachment, corruption, etc - are actually evil at all? I think the message is that only imbalance is evil, and everything else must be judged on the basis of whether it's causing imbalance at that moment.

Depending on the situation, selfishness could help cause imbalance, or could help cause balance. Selfishness is evil in the first instance and good in the second.

So then the real issue is: what causes balance vs imbalance? Is it really just the number of Jedi and Sith? Or is it having someone to babysit the kids on Mortis? Or something entirely different?

To put this more concretely, let's say that balance can only be brought about by Anakin staying to babysit. But he leaves. Maybe he does that because he is selfish and he doesn't want to give up the stuff about his life that he loves. Or maybe he does that because he feels responsibility towards the Jedi and their fight to save the Republic, and he doesn't want to abruptly abandon Padme. But whether his motives are selfish or unselfish, the result is still imbalance, so what does selfishness have to do with anything?

 

[Christopher]

I'm curious about one thing: are good and evil being in balance actually part of taoism? Does that philosophy actually hold that you shouldn't wipe out evil from the face of the earth if it were theoretically possible to do so?

No. Like I said, it's an imposition of Western assumptions to define the equal and opposite forces in Eastern philosophy as "good" and "evil." Taoism doesn't really address good and evil. It's about, to put it crudely, "going with the flow" -- about letting go of assumptions, agendas, ambitions, etc. and just letting stuff happen naturally.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taoism#Beliefs

What you're specifically thinking of is the concept of yin and yang, which is about the interdependence of seemingly opposite forces, the idea that opposites like light and dark, male and female, etc. only exist in relation to one another. As Wikipedia puts it:

There is a perception (especially in the West) that yin and yang correspond to good and evil (not respectively). However, Taoist philosophy generally discounts good/bad distinctions and other dichotomous moral judgments, in preference to the idea of balance.

Which means that the Dark Side is not itself evil. It becomes evil if it's the only game in town, but you could say the same about the Light Side.

Not necessarily. It depends on how you define your terms. They call themselves the light and dark sides, but is that an expression of their fundamental cosmic natures or just a couple of labels that people made up for them? The so-called "dark side" could be the side of imbalance, of chaos. Darksiders are governed by ambition, rage, covetousness -- all the forces that, according to Buddhist and Taoist thought, create imbalance and suffering. The Jedi way, as exposited in the prequels, is more like the way of Buddhist monks, the rejection of desire and attachment, the effort to attain balance within oneself and with the universe.

 

[Temis the Vorta]

That last TCW episode gave me the impression of the Light and Dark Sides needing to be balanced, rather than the notion that the Dark Side itself contains imbalance.

Or maybe the interpretation is that both Light and Dark Side contain imbalance and both need to be restrained. But the implication was that the Light and Dark Sides should be treated equally - they both need management and they're both dangerous left on their own.

I found it interesting that both the Son and Daughter would have killed Ahsoka and Obi-Wan respectively. That doesn't tell me that one is good and the other evil, but rather that they're both so far beyond the human plane that they wouldn't sympathize with a mere mortal.

Maybe that's good taoism or not so good, doesn't really matter since Lucas is just adapting taoism to his story as needed, and it might get pretty garbled, though I hope not so garbled that it loses any distinctiveness as an Eastern idea. He just needs to stay away from simplistic formulas of good Jedi vs. evil Sith.

 

[Saul]

The Sith are not the dark side.

What brings the force into balance then?

Destroying the Sith. Around and around we go...

And the Sith represent the Dark Side. So it's destroying the dark side of the force. Ne?

^Saul, it sounds like you're reacting to fragments of what I posted without considering the entire premise I presented. You seem to have missed the conclusion I drew. Taking pieces of my proposal out of context misses the point. I'm proposing that the prophesied restoration of balance was a whole complex process, not a single act.

I could see what you were saying but I don't think it was a complex process as that. I don't think that's what Lucas had in mind. Just IMO. I think a single act can change everything.

 

[ProtoAvatar]

It's the other way around, Christopher:

"Balance when good and evil are equally matched" fits very well Eastern philosophies (this concept - equilibrium of the opposites (yin/yang, dark/light, good/evil), neither dominant - is fundamental for taoism, for example).

Sorry, you're wrong. Eastern philosophy is about a balance of opposite forces, yes, but they don't define those forces as good and evil. That's a Western concept that Westerners trying to interpret Eastern philosophy often impose on it. The yin and yang, the light and dark, whatever, both have equal potential to do good or ill. It's when those opposing forces are in balance that things are good and right, and it's when they're out of balance that bad things happen (for instance, bad feng shui, an environment out of balance, can allow harmful forces free rein).

Not quite, Christopher.

Eastern philosophy focuses on the ideea of balance/equilibrium between yin/yang, compelmentary opposites.

Mostly - but not always - it does not attach a moral value (good/evil) to yin/yang equilibrium, focusing on 'balance' between everything rather than what is in balance.

But when it does attach a moral good/evil dimension to yin/yang - such as in buddhism - well, then good/evil are in balance, neither dominant. There are no exceptions to 'balance'.

I know you don't find these ideas politically correct enough, Christopher - but your views have no influence, don't change the facts.

I'm curious about one thing: are good and evil being in balance actually part of taoism? Does that philosophy actually hold that you shouldn't wipe out evil from the face of the earth if it were theoretically possible to do so?

As said, Temis, taoism, mostly, does not give yin/yang a moral dimension.
Rather, yin/yang equilibrium represents equilibrium between all opposites. And this balance is part of the natural world, is a fundamental part of nature. You can't change this yin/yang equilibrium any more than you can make gravity disappear.

And something else - the yin/yang balance refers to the whole of nature. A particular object/place/person/etc can contain more 'yin' or more 'yang' at a certain moment; for an object/person/etc, this proportionality varies with time, it is dynamic.

 

[Set Harth]

What brings the force into balance then?

Destroying the Sith. Around and around we go...

And the Sith represent the Dark Side. So it's destroying the dark side of the force. Ne?

No, it's destroying the Sith. The Sith are not the dark side.

I found it interesting that both the Son and Daughter would have killed Ahsoka and Obi-Wan respectively.

I'm not completely certain of that, but that was Father's implication.

 

[Christopher]

I could see what you were saying but I don't think it was a complex process as that. I don't think that's what Lucas had in mind. Just IMO.

I wasn't saying it was what Lucas had in mind. I was exercising my own imagination, taking a look at the information we were given and seeing if there was a way to interpret it self-consistently. The audience of a work of fiction is not obligated to be passive and treat the creator's intent as gospel. The audience members are free to exercise their own imagination, to let the work inspire their own creativity beyond the text itself. Heck, that's the most satisfying part of the process -- trying to imagine for yourself what lies beyond the story you've been told.

 

[Saul]

The problem is we can imagine more behind it than Lucas can
With some shows or movies the possiblities are endless, there could be many meanings taken from some works. Take Inception as an example. With Nolan I feel the sky's the limit in terms of what might be the meaning of the film. With Lucas I feel whatever direction we go with our imagination it's not going to match the playing field Lucas made with the prequel Trilogy. Our ideas are on the grander scale than he would lead us to concieve. I have loved reading people's ideas behind the prophecy but I think we all put far more thought into it than Lucas.

 

[exodus]

The problem is we can imagine more behind it than Lucas can
With some shows or movies the possiblities are endless, there could be many meanings taken from some works. Take Inception as an example. With Nolan I feel the sky's the limit in terms of what might be the meaning of the film. With Lucas I feel whatever direction we go with our imagination it's not going to match the playing field Lucas made with the prequel Trilogy. Our ideas are on the grander scale than he would lead us to concieve. I have loved reading people's ideas behind the prophecy but I think we all put far more thought into it than Lucas.

Disagree only for the fact we're looking back in retrospect over his work and twiking what's already been written. We aren't creating the it from scratch as he did.

 

[Saul]

If by that you mean the original trilogy then yes. But I meant the concept of the chosen one that was thought up for the prequels. I see his work on the original Trilogy and his prequel trilogy as two different things. What came before leaves a lot open for interpretation compared to what's around now with a completed Saga and Clone Wars series.

 

[exodus]

If by that you mean the original trilogy then yes. But I meant the concept of the chosen one that was thought up for the prequels. I see his work on the original Trilogy and his prequel trilogy as two different things. What came before leaves a lot open for interpretation compared to what's around now with a completed Saga and Clone Wars series.

Nope, I mean in general.

 

[Temis the Vorta]

To me, the real question about Star Wars is which of these statements are true:

1. Star Wars is about good vs evil, as embodied by the quest for balance. The Jedi are good, because they seek balance; the Sith are evil because they seek imbalance.

2. Star Wars is not about good vs evil. It is about the ways in which people mess things up with their petty definitions of good vs evil. The cosmos seeks balance between the Light and Dark Sides, but neither is good or evil. The Jedi and Sith are the ones who invented these labels, and use them in their petty little squabbles, while the cosmos rolls on exactly as it wants, ignoring them.

None of this requires that concepts of taosim/buddhism be handled accurately - they might be deliberately altered to fit the story.

 

[thorshammer1138]

Was I tripping did i see a commercial with Darth Maul??? in a dream like sequence??

 

[Temis the Vorta]

You were tripping.


...or maybe not...

 

[Temis the Vorta]

Let's boot the thread up where people can find it tonight...

I know I'm interested to find out what the heck happens! From the previews, it's obvious what generally happens, but what it means and where it goes are entirely different questions. What is the true nature of the Son? What did he mean by "yes and no?" What does he want? Is this show turning into Lost and forcing us to have debates that make us sound like paranoid schizeophrenics?

In business news, TCW is earning its keep by keeping those toy sales buoyant.

I see no reason why Lucasfilm won't pursue this strategy endlessly - inexpensive cartoon series that keep Star Wars top of mind regardless of whether there are movies ever again. They've got plenty of history between here and ROTJ (and beyond) that they can use as a loss-leader (assuming TCW doesn't make money, which it doubtless does) and a creative team that can produce content that appeals to children and adults alike.

 

[Set Harth]

What did he mean by "yes and no?" What does he want? Is this show turning into Lost and forcing us to have debates that make us sound like paranoid schizeophrenics?

Yes and no.

 

[P0sitr0nic]

Heh, the toy market sure will make its money. I bought an Ahsoka today, and I plan t get her season 3 version as soon as its out.

 

[Basill]

My cable company here in Nashville has apparently been airing Clone Wars in Spanish for the past two weeks! I had been taping it in the bedroom (non HD), while watching Medium in the Living Room (HD). Now that Medium is no more, I had no problem watching CW in the Living room, but I chose to keep recording on the same machine. When I rewound the tape to get it ready to go this evening, I noticed last week's taping was totally in Spanish! I had to scramble to get the tape in the HD set-up to record tonight's episode which is the only English version it seems. Just lucky I have HD I guess. I almost opted out of it.

I had noticed the Saturday morning re-broadcast had been in Spanish a few weeks back, but my Friday night recordings of the Ventress Trilogy were still in English. The other Friday night programs still are, so I didn't give it any thought. And, we currently have no less than two non HD Cartoon Networks right now and both are airing CW in Spanish, Friday and Saturday. Weird

 

[fett51]

Well that wasn't as revelatory as last week. Pretty much confirmed my belief they were still just force users, magic dagger or not. Disappointed "the war will get worse" is the only consequence of the Son gaining power. Also a bit confused given the dark side was already in ascendence as of AotC.

I was expecting more from the son/daughter conflict. And from the lightsaber duel, really, though I suppose Ahsoka shouldn't be very good with her new style yet.

The bit where the son needed their shuttle gave me a rather bad flashback, I'm sure you all know to what.

The preview for next week tried to make like Temis is getting her wish about completely rewriting the star wars universe post-TCW. Should be very, very interesting.