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Star Wars:The Clone Wars S3......so far

I do have the Thrawn trilogy and the comics that depict the alternate-reality scenarios of the OT (what if Luke didn't blow up the Death Star, etc) but I've been saving them till after the end of TCW S3 (when does it end, in Jan or Feb)?

And it occurred to me that my two "divergent" ideas - Clone Wars done the Star Trek way and Clone Wars done the Star Wars way - aren't incompatible. You could put both stories into one TV series and tell a story on two levels: the political/economic (but with more sophisticated writing that goes beyond simplistic "greedy corporations") and the metaphysical/mythological. That would be very ambitious but do-able.
 
But if he's really going for the political metaphor, then I'll have to assume that the Republic is something we would agree is a "republic" and it's not what I've been suspecting, just a word that these weird aliens are using for a political system that doesn't really map to our values. I'll just accept that unsettling weirdness like the clone cannon fodder and underage warriors don't disqualify the Republic from being analogous to our own political system, as long as the writing is reasonably sharp otherwise.

Well, it's not meant to map to our values or western government directly, it's meant to be on the way to a dictatorship, a midpoint between where we are now and a total collapse of democracy. If anything it's meant to be analogous to Weimar Germany and Rome just before Caesar. The slave army is part of that, the lower age of consent I think is just a cultural thing.

Temis the Vorta said:
The normals should be riding the coattails of the core ideological conflict. It's good to have episodes that deal with the trickle-down benefits - the corporations are doing this, the Republic is doing that - but where are the episodes about what the fight is really about? The fight appears to be really about corrupt corporations vs. noble liberal democrats, and the Sith and the Jedi are simply supporting one side or the other. They've got it completely backwards!

I think what you're missing here is that Palpatine is controlling both sides and everyone else, including the Jedi, are pawns. The liberal democrats and corporatists are divided over issues that were manufactured so they would start fighting each other. The Jedi are distracted from looking for Palpatine while they fight a war against his enemies (systems not loyal to his future Empire) expending the strength of their order in the process. Palpatine is not backing one side over the other, he's interested in keeping the war going for as long as is needed for him to amass enough power to declare the Empire. The core Jedi/Sith conflict during this period is the Jedi going from thinking Dooku is the face of the Sith to realizing the Republic they serve has become the very thing they are fighting to destroy, as Padme put it in RotS.
 
Okay I just watched "Heroes on Both Sides" - now that is what I've been waiting for! This show needs a lot more episodes like that, plus adding the "missing" plotline - the larger what's at stake for the Jedi and the Sith.

What I mean is, Dooku and Palps aren't going to all this trouble just so they can deregulate the banks. :rommie: They are using greedy, shortsighted nitwits as pawns in a larger scheme, and no doubt regard issues such as trade routes and taxes as hilariously trivial, if momentarily useful. They are playing a game at a different level, and presumably the Jedi are, too. But the story so far is stuck at the mundane level of bank deregulation, corruption, etc. These things should not be the focus of the entire story. We need a balance between the two levels. Some episodes can be at the mundane level, but others need to be the "real" story - which we've yet to see. I'm hoping that second level will emerge. Soon.

Nice characterization in this one, establishing that Ahoska is now old enough to start asking smart questions; that Padme is smart enough to see that a trumped up war should be amenable to negotiation, since the substance behind it was never enough to launch hostilities without a lot of "help" (meaning, she may not know that it's trumped up, but she can tell the difference between a war that emerges from real differences and one that didn't need to happen); and that Anakin's political beliefs are extremely thin (something I've suspected all along) and that he may see himself as someone with an interest in politics - and enough sense to know that Padme is a better poli sci teacher than he is - but in reality, he's all about adrenaline, action and power.

For Anakin, politics are just a means to that end - a life of action and actualization of his will - with the result that he is dangerously naive. This is very smart setup. He doesn't need to be self-involved or stupid to be duped by Palps, which is the impression the movies left, but he does need to have a very specific mindset to allow his fall to the dark side to happen so that it seems natural even for a smart and noble-minded character, and let him hang onto the audience's sympathy for as long as possible. Writing a story where the "villain" is the main character is very tricky and demands that Anakin walk a very narrow path. The movies didn't even come close to pulling it off but the TCW writers are showing themselves to be smart enough to in the first place, understand the challenge, then see that path and start to navigate the character along it. Finally I am starting to have hope that the story has landed in the lap of writers who have the first clue how to pull it off. Amazing! :rommie:

The ending implies that Ahsoka is going to continue to be a pivotal character in the story, as the conflict between Anakin and Padme is going to be embodied in how Ahsoka continues to develop. Other than having smart writers working on the story, Ahsoka may be that vital missing element that the movies didn't have - or one of them at least.

It's also nice to see confirmation that the Separatist war isn't all just Palps teaming up with some glaringly cardboard villains, which is the impression I got from the movies. For there to be actual substance in Separatist ideas that Palps happened to take advantage of, helps to reduce the notion that the whole story is just Palps manipulating the whole galaxy. Now we see that he isn't in control of every damn thing in the story, and glory hallelulah, the good guys appear to be making some inroads into fighting back. This is just what the story has needed all along, the sense that this is a battle between two sides who are both reasonably on the ball, not just Palps tromping all over the helpless morons on the other side.

Hopefully this episode marks a turning point in the sophistication and intelligence of the series, to finally start to realize the potential I've suspected it had all along. And I also like the new costumes for the characters.

But we do still need that "other level" to the story where trade route, banking deregulation, corruption and all that crap are left so far below that they are a mere dot in the rapidly-receding haze. And in the emerging three-way battle between Anakin, Padme and Ahsoka, only two of those characters can participate - Anakin and Ahsoka - but that's fine by me, because you only need two characters for dramatic conflict (and the need to fit into canon means that Anakin's antagonist cannot be either Obi-Wan or Palps).

I think what you're missing here is that Palpatine is controlling both sides and everyone else, including the Jedi, are pawns.
I get that - I just don't like it. It's not a good setup for dramatic conflict to have one of the sides be mere pawns. Both sides in a good story must be more or less equal so that there will be maximum dramatic tension (usually the bad guys will have some advantage, but not to the overwhelming extent that Palps has.) The lack of equivalence saps dramatic tension from the story. At the very least, someone from the good guys (most likely Ahsoka, since she is immune from canon) should represent their side of the fight. If Ahsoka can break free from pawn-hood, then that will be good enough for me.

The core Jedi/Sith conflict during this period is the Jedi going from thinking Dooku is the face of the Sith to realizing the Republic they serve has become the very thing they are fighting to destroy, as Padme put it in RotS.
That shouldn't be the core of their conflict since it's still stuck at the mundane political level. Or to put it another way: that's a conflict that non-Force-users could have. So what's the point of having people who can control the Force have that conflict? What wasted potential! This could be any space opera story. I want a story that could only be told in the Star Wars universe. The Jedi need to extract themselves from the political level and start to fight the Sith on their own level. And since canon will allow only Ahsoka to do that, I guess she's the girl for the job. :D
 
Some of the books are a bit political as well BTW-however, it's a bit different than the trade routes stuff from the prequels.
 
Some of the books are a bit political as well BTW-however, it's a bit different than the trade routes stuff from the prequels.

What's the problem with the taxation of the trade routes? This was the start of the downfall of the Republic, very well explained in 'Cloak of Deception' (a must read for all who consider 'The Phantom Menace' a bad film...! ). Palpatine uses the bureaucracy to it's own downfall. Look at the managers of the big banks, who use laws to their own privilege, look at governments who use law against the law.

The prequels are much more thought through than many would want to admit. In fact you will not understand them by watching them once, there are still little bits and pieces coming into place for me, when I rewatch the whole saga annually (and I watched every film at least 50 times).
 
Padme displays a certain ruthlessness by using Ahsoka's Jedi contacts for her own purposes.

My thought about the Seperatists is that many of them had legitimate reasons for leaving the corrupt government. Dooku and Palpatine (who helpled create them) used that to their advantage. Where the Seperatists lose credibility is when they associate themselves with the very same corruption they bemoan, the trade guilds and so forth. Although now we learn they are still somehow apart of The Republic.

I also found it puzzling that Padme didn't point out to her friend that Dooku and his associates have tried to kill her on a regular basis. Who needs friends like that?
 
Temis the Vorta said:
It's not a good setup for dramatic conflict to have one of the sides be mere pawns. Both sides in a good story must be more or less equal so that there will be maximum dramatic tension (usually the bad guys will have some advantage, but not to the overwhelming extent that Palps has.)
...
what's the point of having people who can control the Force have that conflict? What wasted potential! This could be any space opera story. I want a story that could only be told in the Star Wars universe. The Jedi need to extract themselves from the political level and start to fight the Sith on their own level.

Hmm, sounds like you're looking for this era: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VjhJcm-lpjc

The plot we have in TCW is necessitated by the fact Palpatine is one guy and there are ~10,000 Jedi at the time of Episode I. To some degree the Jedi DO wake up and start working on the level you're talking about by RotS - they're ready to throw Palps out of office even though they don't know he's a Sith. The political side of the waking up you just saw some of the first steps of, the other being the bit in season 2 where Palps set up Satine and Obi-wan concedes things are getting complicated. By the end of the show things between Palpatine, the Jedi and the proto-Rebellion in the Senate will have to become very tense to line up with RotS (there are cut scenes from Ep 3 with Padme/Bail/Mon Mothma calling BS on Palpatine to his face, so it's at least in Lucas' brain someplace).

The big metaphysical conflict about the dark side clouding everything and the Jedi's ability to use the force being diminished is thrown out there in Episode 2, and neither Episode 3 nor the EU to the extent of my knowledge has touched those aspects the the Clone Wars period yet. The only precedent I can think of comes from the Knights of the Old Republic games, where massive death is said to to leave scars in the force (think Yoda's cave), and the force as a whole becomes disturbed (think Obi-wan sensing the destruction of Alderaan) and more and more dark the more death and killing there is. On a more micro level, that side of war can be used to break Jedi and turn them to the dark side, either by drowning them in death or by seduction, promising them the power they need to win, then corrupting them. The Sith of old started a proxy war for the purpose of driving the force in that direction, breaking Jedi, fracturing the Order and weakening the Republic. Long, complicated story short, they succeeded. The Sith, though, as soon as they think they've won turn on each other in personal grabs for power which allows the Jedi to come back and finish them off, then the Sith go back into hiding and start the cycle over again. That's why there's only two Sith at a time in the movie era, and they use stealth and manipulation rather than amassing armies of Ventresses and Darth Mauls. They've learned, adapted and caught the Jedi completely unprepared. And this post has come full circle :p

If any of that shows up in clone wars I will be thrilled out of my mind. The closest it's come is that Mon Cal Jedi in S1 Grievous killed who wanted to use raw power to fight the war.
 
Yes there was a deleted scene where Padme implores Palpatine to rescind his power or something like that, she was presenting the Petition of A Thousand or something like that and he simply dismisses them and says that he will end his term when the war against the Separatists is over and not before.

The Sith/Jedi conflict is definitely at the center of this conflict. It is just that Palpatine has used his influence in the Senate and his knowledge of politics to manipulate matters into an advanced state. He probably realized that he was in the best position out of any of the previous Sith Lord's to be able to do this to the large scale that his plans called for.

The thing about the dark side clouding things is touched on in a couple of the EU prequel books that are set in the prequel trilogy timeline. Yoda mentions in the films that the Dark Side clouds everything making it difficult to see the future clearly. I think he mentions this in Episode II before his famous statement that the Clone Wars have begun. The fact of the matter is a number of things led to the downfall of the Republic but perhaps one of the biggest things is the arrogance and contentment of even the Jedi Council.
 
The Republic becoming the Empire without an overthrow was definitely interesting. I think anyone who saw the original trilogy just assumed it was an overthrow.
 
Yeah exactly. The Republic fell because it's citizens didn't care or were blind to what was happening and Palpatine knew this and manipulated it into his favor.
 
Apathy? Uh, no. Are we forgetting Padme's line "So this is how liberty dies: to thunderous applause." The Empire didn't happen because people didn't care, it happened because people thought it was a good idea. Why? Probably something to do with what Palpatine said about creating a safe and secure society (which prompted the applause). Before him they had a completely corrupt, incompetent government that was incapable of defending even one system from being exploited. Palpatine turned the Republic into a very effective government more than capable of protecting its people from even a galaxy shattering war. The people of the galaxy must've decided that was more important than the personal freedoms they were losing.
 
Padme's line that you referenced had to do with the Senate not the citizens of the Republic. The Senate is supposed to represent the interests of the Republic. As we know from real life government does not necessarily implement what the people want. I do think there is a certain amount of apathy within the general population of the Republic, else how else would they allow their politicians to get so corrupt and complacent? Hope I'm expressing myself clearly.
 
I'm of the opinion that the people did care, but perhaps felt powerless to do anything about it.

For the most part, we saw that people cared enough to rebel against the Republic and even if it was the Senate that ratified Palpatine's imperial declaration, he appeared to be able to rule without a major rebellion against his reign for nearly 20 years, so perhaps there was support from the citizens, they chose security over freedom.

Interesting enough, one thing on screen SW hasn't focused on all that much is the view of the little guy. Luke and Han are perhaps the best examples we have and they get quickly swept in this big galactic events. By making Anakin a kid when we met him it somewhat negated getting his informed opinions about the galaxy, etc, that I think would've been cool to get this non-Jedi, non-Republic view, and also the perspective of a slave. I think the EU has handled this a bit better.

From what I've seen on screen, I can't say exactly what caused the Republic to collapse. Complacency (an 'end of history' kind of mindset), overreach/overstretch, apathy, greed, cynicism, alienated or disconnected from the government, manipulation by Palpatine, etc., etc.
 
I think most people were just happy that the war had ended, and didn't realize that becoming an Empire was going to be so bad for them.
 
Based on what we saw, I think many (not all) people were happy when the Republic became an Empire. The opinion quickly changed as the Empire became more and more draconian, leading to the "Oh God, what have we done?" mindset.
 
Padme's line that you referenced had to do with the Senate not the citizens of the Republic. The Senate is supposed to represent the interests of the Republic. As we know from real life government does not necessarily implement what the people want. I do think there is a certain amount of apathy within the general population of the Republic, else how else would they allow their politicians to get so corrupt and complacent? Hope I'm expressing myself clearly.

Well yeah, that's how it got to be in Episode 1 their government was totally useless, but Palpatine got swept into office on a wave of discontent with the state of the government, triggered by the Naboo crisis. I think what happened after that was what Anakin said in ep 3 - Palpatine getting more power meant more stuff got done, instead of bogged down in the Senate. That turns public opinion for Palpatine and against the Senate, and if he plays the kindly old man for the press as well as he does for Anakin, the public might even trust him (until he starts blowing up planets anyway :p).
 
Palpatine uses the bureaucracy to it's own downfall.
That kind of thing probably works much better in novels that it does in movies and on TV, where you need motivations that are simpler, easier to dramatize, more emotion-based and visual, especially visual. Nobody can visualize taxation and trade routes in any meaningful way, and they mean different things to different people (the emotional reactions are too complex and unpredictable, so you have to ratchet it down to the level of cliche - everyone can agree "bureaucracy is bad" if the bureaucrats are cliches).

If the war had been about Separatist worlds that wanted to clone people as slaves, and the Republic objected, you'd have a highly visual source of the conflict: the clones and the factories can be shown; the badness of the situation can be dramatized (you can identify with clones who are being oppressed and see them being oppressed); the situation is highly emotional and everyone's emotions can be predicted to flow the same way (sympathy for clones) without anything needing to be simplified to the level of cliche.

The prequels are much more thought through than many would want to admit. In fact you will not understand them by watching them once, there are still little bits and pieces coming into place for me, when I rewatch the whole saga annually (and I watched every film at least 50 times).
That will never happen in my case because now that I've seen Anakin being performed the right way, I never want to subject myself to the wrong way, ever again. :rommie: I've watched the first two once and the last one twice, and that will be my lifetime total. Whatever needs to happen in the story, it's up to TCW to deliver.
Padme displays a certain ruthlessness by using Ahsoka's Jedi contacts for her own purposes.
I'd say she was more than justified. Somebody has got to start taking charge.

My thought about the Seperatists is that many of them had legitimate reasons for leaving the corrupt government.
I never got that idea until this most recent episode, but it's a very good addition to the story because it solves a big problem I had with the PT that the Jedi and the Republic look stupid for being fooled so long by Palps.

From the PT, I had the impression that the war was cartoonishly evil Trade Federation goons + Palps + droids. Palps and his greedy cohorts manufactured a war out of the clear blue sky. At least some intelligent people should be able to realize "there isn't any legitimate reason to fight" and start getting suspicious immediately.

But if the war is largely due to pre-existing fault lines in the Republic, and Palps & the goons just make a little push here and a little pull there to get the war going, then intelligent people might not think anything was being manipulated because they can see why the war would start naturally. That seems to be Padme's belief, since she doesn't regard her Separatist friend as some kind of lunatic, or someone hiding ignoble motives, but rather a reasonable person with reasonable ideas who can be negotiated with, and is making the assumption that enough Separatists are like that, to make negotiation with their Senate worthwhile.

This is just another example of how the PT devoted too much time to extraneous stuff and ignored vital stuff. The story needed a lot more set-up that the war wasn't really contrived at all - maybe with a major character who becomes a Separatist to dramatize what the issues might be. And more attention devoted to the problems in the Republic - the movies didn't address this sufficiently or at all that I can recall.

Of course this all takes the risk of being a big, boring civics lesson, which is why I'd prefer to toss all of it out, make the war something simple that doesn't need to be explained much at all (clone slaves) and devote more effort to the bigger, metaphysical story about the Force and what it all means.

But if they insist on going the civics lesson route, then I'm game. At least in a TV series, there's no problem with having a lack of screentime for exploring complex issues and I gotta give them credit at least for not just making this all a brainless hack & slash saga with no ambition to be anything more.

No the Republic fell because its citizens no longer cared.
I've also wondered about that (just like I've wondered if the Seppys had any legitimate grievances), but once again, I haven't seen that idea dramatized convincingly either. The "degenerate Republic" angle would give the story more of a tragic dimension, since the Senate and Jedi alike would be fighting to defend something that cannot be rescued. If people don't care, you don't have a democracy, and they deserve to have an empire inflicted on them.

The impact of that angle on the story is that Padme and the Jedi can still be considered intelligent, but tragic. They should at some level realize their fight is doomed to failure. Anakin doesn't need to be portrayed as an adrenaline junkie who doesn't really care about politics, but rather can be a smart guy who sees which way the wind is blowing, isn't bothered by the idea of a Republic filled with with morons who are going to get exactly what they deserve, and jumps over to the winning team because he's not the type to go down with the ship, like the rest of the Jedi.

So those are really two very different ways of taking the story: the imperfect but salvageable Republic which is being legitimately challenged by the Separatists, and falls only because the bad guys were clever and the good guys didn't get their act together in time; and an unsalvageable Republic that is being abandoned by the smarter people among them, while the idealists who hang in there are destroyed.

And both of those are very different (and much better) than the impression left by the PT: a galaxy-full of morons who can't see that one guy is manipulating everyone into disaster.
 
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But you have to wonder Padme's logic at the same time. She knows the kind of man that Dooku is and I'm sure she knows he's a Sith Lord. You're not going to be able to negoiate with people like Dooku or Grievous.

The movies never directly addressed why the Seperatists broke away from the Republic. You can get the ideas based on TPM I suppose. Corrupt and ineffective government that gets a new leader. Ten years later we learn that thousands of star systems are about to break away from the Republic. GL pretty much didn't feel the need to explain any of it.

The official site did a website prior to AOTC called holonetnews which probably provided more of an explanation.

http://www.holonetnews.com/56/archives/
 
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