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Star Wars Question...

The problem is that people view Star Wars as sci-fi, or even hard sci-fi, when it's a fairy tale pure and simple. If you're looking for a logical development of technology, then you're going to need to look elsewhere.

There are dark ages where knowledge and technology is set back such as the when the Sith ruled the galaxy in the 2000 years before the Star Wars Saga or the Imperial Era itself that is the setting of the OT.
Both of these have been my viewpoints on the subject.

I'm currently into the new Dawn of the Jedi comic set around 36,000 years before Episode IV--it's a whole new era before there was any Republic and the precursor to the Jedi Order taught how to balance both the Light and Dark Sides of the Force--but I get the feeling that that the biggest changes over the many millennia have been in the rise and fall of various empires and civilizations, many of which have been lost in antiquity.
 
The Death Star is a fairly obvious example of a technological advancement in the Star Wars universe.

In the sense that it's a bigger gun, maybe, but that's hardly an impressive advancement.
Hardly impressive? :guffaw: So, you're saying that the Rebels were actually hardly impressed, and they just attacked both stations largely for kicks? Part of the premise in the Death Star is that large enough quantitative charges are qualitative.

The way Han Solo brags about the Millennium Falcon being able to make "point-five past light speed", it is also suggested that innovations are occurring in the area of hyper-drive motors. Or, at least that's how I always interpreted that.

To me it sounded more like he was bragging about having the most souped-up car around. I mean, the Falcon is an antiquated, broken-down freighter, not a state-of-the-art ship. In the Imperial Era, I doubt that anyone other than the military is getting state-of-the-art tech; everyone else, particularly the outlaws, would have to settle for more low-grade assembly-line stuff or whatever still-viable Republic-era tech they could scrounge together. It's more likely that Han's boast simply meant that he'd been able to upgrade its engines with the best parts he could beg, borrow, or steal, and make it run as close as possible to the peak of the existing range of ship performance.

By analogy, if a street racer says his ride can do 200 MPH, he's not saying that it represents some fundamental technological breakthrough in automotive propulsion, he's just saying that he's been able to improve its performance to near the upper limits for that existing technology.

Which ... constitute innovations, since the ship is way beyond factory specs. A ship that can outperform everything in its class is an innovation. The Falcon seemed to do alright against "real" Imperial ships, even Star Destroyers. In addition, it's a straw man argument to say that something's not innovation because no "fundamental breakthrough" has occurred in constructing it.

From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Innovation#Sources_of_innovation:
Another source of innovation, only now becoming widely recognized, is end-user innovation. This is where an agent (person or company) develops an innovation for their own (personal or in-house) use because existing products do not meet their needs. MIT economist Eric von Hippel has identified end-user innovation as, by far, the most important and critical in his classic book on the subject, Sources of Innovation.[9] In addition, the famous robotics engineer Joseph F. Engelberger asserts that innovations require only three things: 1. A recognized need, 2. Competent people with relevant technology, and 3. Financial support. [10]
(...)
9. ^ Von Hippel, E. (1988). Sources of Innovation. Oxford University Press. The Sources of Innovation
10. ^ Engelberger, J. F. (1982). Robotics in practice: Future capabilities. Electronic Servicing & Technology magazine.
 
I can't remember where I heard it, but apparently between Knights of the Old Republic and the Prequels there was some big apocalyptic conflict that blew civilization away and it was only after thousands of years they'd returned to the tech level of KOTOR.

About a thousand years before the Prequels, the Republic engaged in bloody battles with the Sith that nearly collapsed the Republic, with the end result being the (supposed) extinction of the Sith order, and Darth Bane going into hiding to start his new "Rule of Two" Sith Order, but I don't think it was anything that caused galactic civilization to regress in technology.
 
Thanks for the responses everyone. :techman:

I was hoping there was an in universe explanation for the seemingly technological and societal plateau but there doesn't seem to be...
 
I can't remember where I heard it, but apparently between Knights of the Old Republic and the Prequels there was some big apocalyptic conflict that blew civilization away and it was only after thousands of years they'd returned to the tech level of KOTOR.

About a thousand years before the Prequels, the Republic engaged in bloody battles with the Sith that nearly collapsed the Republic, with the end result being the (supposed) extinction of the Sith order, and Darth Bane going into hiding to start his new "Rule of Two" Sith Order, but I don't think it was anything that caused galactic civilization to regress in technology.

The one thousand year domination of the galaxy by Sith before Bane had created a dark age in which much of the territory of the former Republic was ruled by various Sith Lords.
 
We've seen technological progression in the form of the Lightsaber, going from a unit that had to be plugged into a belt worn power pack, and had an exposed emitter crystal in its head, to the sleeker, more... elegant... weapon.
 
The Death Star is a fairly obvious example of a technological advancement in the Star Wars universe.

In the sense that it's a bigger gun, maybe, but that's hardly an impressive advancement.
Hardly impressive? :guffaw: So, you're saying that the Rebels were actually hardly impressed, and they just attacked both stations largely for kicks? Part of the premise in the Death Star is that large enough quantitative charges are qualitative.

I'm speaking in terms of fundamental scientific or technological advancement. Building a much bigger version of existing technology is militarily or economically significant, but it's not the kind of breakthrough in basic knowledge that we're talking about here. It's like the difference between building a bigger catapult and inventing gunpowder.


Which ... constitute innovations, since the ship is way beyond factory specs. A ship that can outperform everything in its class is an innovation.

It's an individual innovation, sure, one guy being able to upgrade an old ship so that it can run as well as the best new ships. But it's not a civilizational innovation, the introduction of something society has never had before. Just because the A-Team could turn a broken-down Chevy and a bunch of scrap metal into a tank, that doesn't mean they fundamentally advanced society's technological knowhow.

In addition, it's a straw man argument to say that something's not innovation because no "fundamental breakthrough" has occurred in constructing it.

Huh? No, it's not a straw man, because the original topic of the thread was why there didn't seem to have been any fundamental advances in technology in the SW universe as a whole in 4000 years. The thread is not about whether individuals can upgrade their equipment past factory specs, it's about why the overall technological level of civilization has remained generally steady over millennia, rather than having the kind of fundamental advances our society has had over the equivalent span of time.

My point about the punctuated equilibrium of technological progress, the idea that the kind of accelerated change we experience in our era is an exception to the overall norm, does not in any way exclude the kind of small-scale innovation you're referring to. I did make a point of specifying that in times and cultures that have not been undergoing technological revolutions, where circumstances have promoted stability rather than rapid change, there is still some degree of innovation and improvement. But that's not the level of analysis this thread is geared toward. The topic is civilizational progress over millennia.
 
Christopher, I'm not sure you actually disagree with these points, but I think they relate to the topic at hand, since they do indicate technological progress occurring in the films.

Very clearly, the Death Star represented a technological advancement. It was a weapon the galaxy had never seen before. We know so little about the details of its construction and engineering that a position dismissive of the kinds of innovations necessary to construct it is unsupportable. The fact is that it was depicted in-universe as being something new.

Upthread, Caliburn24 pointed out innovations in fighter technology. One of the things that's evident is the evolution of hyperdrive technology as applied to fighters. The Jedi fighter of the PT needed an external hyperdrive ring. X-wing class and later had internal motors. That's an obvious improvement, because needing to park a hyperdrive ring is very bad from a tactical point of view. I find it the most plausible explanation in the PT that smaller hyperdrive motors simply weren't available at all. As valuable as the Jedi were, the Republic should have spared no expense whatsoever on their fighters. Therefore, the mere existence of hyperdrive rings proves that better hyperdrive motors were simply not available at all.

Now you can also be dismissive of the modifications made to the Falcon as something akin to the tinkerings of grease-monkeys, but when the whole OT is considered (actually, the PT too), IMO that too is not the most likely truth in-universe. It's true that Han's bragging came off as a sales pitch of questionable veracity. That was certainly true the first time with respect to the comment about the Kessel Run in the Cantina. Clearly, Obi-Wan didn't believe it. But why? Was it because Han used the wrong unit of measurement, or was it because nothing could go that fast? It's a question worth asking for two good reasons. The first is that, as something to counter Luke's impression that the Falcon is a piece of junk, the point-five past light speed line is delivered in a way that seems completely believable. Whatever point-five past light speed means, it's supposed to be true that the Falcon can go that fast, and it's supposed to sound impressive. Secondly, in TESB Lando asserted that the Falcon was the "fastest hunk of junk in the galaxy". Again, there are two ways to read this line. Either it's fast, but only for a hunk of junk, or it really is fast compared to anything and it's something cobbled together from spare parts. In the context of something that saved his life quite a few times, the second alternative seems more likely. Finally, observe that the Falcon was regularly able to stay ahead of the curve in battle against Imperial forces. That tells us that there really is something under her hood, and that in general underestimating her is a bad idea. All this paints a picture of a ship that has genuine cutting edge performance in the galaxy, and as such is evidence of there having been end-user innovations made at some point on the Outer Rim. Most likely the "fundamental" one [i.e. the most important one] applied to the Falcon was made before Han won her.

Also, since the Republic had collapsed, it's completely realistic that cutting-edge innovations would not be imported into the Outer Rim anymore, as apparently they hadn't been for some time by the PT. Improvements to the quality of life in the Outer Rim could only be home-grown in the Outer Rim. This idea is supported by the presence of Jawas in the OT, the junk dealers in the PT, and even the Pod Races. It is further support of the idea that the Falcon was cutting edge (ETA: by this I mean that it is consistent with the idea that the Falcon outclassed ships all over galaxy, and partially explains it), as the "fundamental" innovation applied to make her so special, having originated in the Outer Rim itself, could easily not have been applied to anything else outside the Outer Rim. In particular, it could easily have been unknown both to the Empire and to the Rebellion, at least until Han joined it. Furthermore, this is completely consistent with the idea that hyperdrive motors were better on the X-wing than on any fighter available in the PT. Innovations on the Outer Rim to make the Falcon might have been addressing the same need to improve the state of hyperdrive technology, as it existed at the climax of the Republic, but independently from the inventors who developed the X-wing.
 
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I always assumed that the Death Star was a technological achievement (at least in regards to weaponry) considering the big deal the Imperials and Rebels were making of it being able to blow up a planet. Seemed like nothing like that was ever made before.
 
I don't believe the Deathstar was any sort of fundamental technological advancement, just a massive up-scaling of existing technology.

But we're playing in the realm of the Star Wars EU here, and that means at least acknowledging the existence of the Maw Installation. Created by Kevin J. Anderson, it may or may not have been partly inspired by his own experiences working at Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory.

And the Maw Installation absolutely did create some fundamental technological advancements...

Metal crystal phase shifting
Quantum-crystalline armor
Resonance torpedoes
Ion Ring

The molecular furnaces of the World Devastators may have been such an advance as well.
 
There certainly seems to be nothing mysterious about the idea that, by scaling known technologies up enough, they should be able to destroy a planet. However, experience shows that one should be cautious about the assumption that little "fundamental" innovation will be needed to scale up to the limits required. In real life, engineering is replete with examples in which preexisting designs cannot be scaled up past a certain point, without the use of new materials or radically new techniques. The quest just to build taller buildings provides numerous examples. Perhaps the thermal exhaust port flaw was the result of some engineering challenge that was difficult to work around.
 
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One thing has always bugged me...

The story in-universe spans roughly four thousand years. Has there been any explanation why technology and styles have went relatively unchanged?

SW cannon is a mess simple as.

The expanded universe shows why Lucas's desire to make a lot of money from merchandising to support LucasArts the company hurts his own work so badly.
 
Unchanged?

The Emperor invented superturbolasers (commissioned their invention), and somehow made light sabre technology completely vanish, which is ridiculous when you consider slice toasting bread, or cooking a space turkey anally...

Besides, look at the 8 foot tall ATATs in the stupid new trilogy, which was as big as they could make them in those days.

besides, the lower the tech, the easier it is to manage a planetary population.

Ask the Goul'd about that some time.

;)
 
There certainly seems to be nothing mysterious about the idea that, by scaling known technologies up enough, they should be able to destroy a planet.

And I think it's shortsighted to define progress merely in terms of how big and powerful your guns are. Ultimately the most transformative and influential technological advance of the 20th century was not the atomic bomb, but the silicon chip.
 
I always assumed that the Death Star was a technological achievement (at least in regards to weaponry) considering the big deal the Imperials and Rebels were making of it being able to blow up a planet. Seemed like nothing like that was ever made before.

It was designed 20 years before ANH. It can't be that groundbreaking.
 
It's just a really big laser cannon, that's hardly something no one ever thought of before.
 
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