Star Wars: Episode VII: The Nerd Rage Awakens

[cooleddie74]

Re: New Casting and Story Rumors re: EPISODE VII

I never much cared for the EU concept of a Clone Emperor just so the character of Palpatine could be resurrected in a new body. I don't mind the idea of Palpatine's evil, dark spirit and consciousness roaming the galaxy and stirring up chaos and trouble to undermine the victorious Rebel Alliance, but I'd prefer if they don't take the old EU idea of cloning the dead Emperor and try doing something with that.

I'd love to see Palpatine return in flashbacks or historical recordings and holograms, but let's leave the man himself in the dustbin of galactic history. Anakin destroyed him as part of the prophecy of the Chosen One and it would make Vader's final heroic sacrifice a lot less meaningful if his old Sith Master just reappeared a few years or decades later.

 

[Mr Light]

Re: New Casting and Story Rumors re: EPISODE VII

I'm hoping the new Sith guys are using a Sidious Holocron for words of wisdom

 

[AgentCoop]

Re: New Casting and Story Rumors re: EPISODE VII

Well, Qui-Gon was the first Jedi to figure out how to return as a Force Ghost, maybe Palpatine will be the first Sith to figure it out.

 

[cooleddie74]

Re: New Casting and Story Rumors re: EPISODE VII

In the old EU continuity the Emperor frequently isolated himself within his palace on Coruscant studying Sith and Jedi theories about immortality and how a living being could theoretically achieve it given enough power and studying. Now that the old EU has been either jettisoned and or tossed up in the air for reevaluation who knows if that part of Palpatine's background outside the films and TV series will ever again be referred to.

 

[JoeZhang]

Re: New Casting and Story Rumors re: EPISODE VII

Well, Qui-Gon was the first Jedi to figure out how to return as a Force Ghost, maybe Palpatine will be the first Sith to figure it out.

Maybe I'm misremembering but is there anything on screen to support that? I vaguely remember a cut-scene?

 

[Doctorwhovian]

Re: New Casting and Story Rumors re: EPISODE VII

There's a deleted scene from SITH (With Yoda on the asteroid base at the end of the film) that would've had Qui-Gon sort of explained it. It's on the blu-ray set I think, except instead of Neeson, it's got what sounds like Ben Burtt explaining it. (Most of the blu-ray deleted scenes are incomplete scenes/animatics).
I think some of it was brought up in the last few Clone Wars episodes, which I haven't seen yet.

I remember the old EU also had pretty much every force-sensitive vanished at death and showed up as a ghost, before TPM sort of retconned that. Makes sense in a way, Obi-Wan and Yoda were only seen vanishing, and it was kind of vague with Vader and Palpatine.

 

[sojourner]

Re: New Casting and Story Rumors re: EPISODE VII

Wait, I'm gonna have to watch Return again. I don't remember Yoda vanishing. Just dying in bed.

 

[cooleddie74]

Re: New Casting and Story Rumors re: EPISODE VII

He does. Right after the moment of death his body disappears and the blanket covering him sinks down.

 

[Mr Light]

Re: New Casting and Story Rumors re: EPISODE VII

And remember, even in the 1977 version of New Hope, Vader is shocked when Obi-Wan's body disappears and curiously toes the empty robes.

 

[JoeZhang]

Re: New Casting and Story Rumors re: EPISODE VII

And remember, even in the 1977 version of New Hope, Vader is shocked when Obi-Wan's body disappears and curiously toes the empty robes.

Yeah but in 1977, he was a henchman who's first name was "Darth".

 

[davejames]

Re: New Casting and Story Rumors re: EPISODE VII

I disagree. Sebastian Shaw looked far, far too old to represent Anakin's Force Ghost after the prequels established that Anakin was actually quite a bit younger than people had originally believed. I do think they made a mistake in making Anakin look exactly like he did in ROTS (if I remember right, they just used stock footage of Christensen instead of filming him specifically for the Force Ghost scene). I think they should have aged Christensen up a bit, but I think replacing Shaw in that scene was the right move.

I can accept that. My problem was seeing a young Anakin and it rankled me so much that I never stopped to think that Vader was 45 when he died while Sebastian Shaw was 76. I'm guessing that Lucas thought the same thing you did, which is why he made the change. And all this time I figured he was just neurotic and couldn't stop tampering with his work, trying to get everyting just right the way a lot of artists do.

Yeah I suppose if you look at the literal ages of the actors it does seem a bit extreme, but in my mind the reason for Anakin appearing so old at the end of Jedi was simply because of the corrupting power of the Dark Side combined with the mechanical suit he had been stuck in for so long.

It made perfect sense to me that whatever power affected the Emperor and turned him into an old, horrible creature had probably done the same thing to Anakin over the years.

Not to mention that Shaw hardly looked 76. He looked more like someone in their early to mid 60s to me. And more important, he actually looked like the kindly father to Luke and Leia that you would have wanted him to become at the end (and oh yeah, also like someone you could imagine Guiness's Obi-Wan being friends with at one time).

 

[Skywalker]

Re: New Casting and Story Rumors re: EPISODE VII

There's a deleted scene from SITH (With Yoda on the asteroid base at the end of the film) that would've had Qui-Gon sort of explained it. It's on the blu-ray set I think, except instead of Neeson, it's got what sounds like Ben Burtt explaining it. (Most of the blu-ray deleted scenes are incomplete scenes/animatics).
I think some of it was brought up in the last few Clone Wars episodes, which I haven't seen yet.

Spoiler: Clone Wars Season 6

Yeah, in the final three episodes of TCW, Qui-Gon contacts Yoda through the Force and takes him on a journey across the galaxy. At the end, Qui-Gon promises to teach Yoda how to retain his consciousness and identity in the Force beyond death, leading into those final moments in ROTS and, of course, the Force Ghosts in the OT.

I'm really glad they took the time to cover that in TCW. When Yoda brought it up to Obi-Wan in ROTS it kind of came out of the blue. It's unfortunate that Neeson wasn't available to record that dialogue for the movie, or whatever happened, but the show really made up for it.

 

[davejames]

Re: New Casting and Story Rumors re: EPISODE VII

I don't know, for me that whole "training to become a Force Ghost" thing just seemed so unnecessary (much like Midichlorians to explain the Force itself). It always seemed like something a Jedi Master would just naturally be able to do once he died.

The idea that you would instead somehow need to "train" to do it just seems so bizarre and ridiculous to me.

 

[Skywalker]

Re: New Casting and Story Rumors re: EPISODE VII

Why?

 

[Stone_Cold_Sisko]

Re: New Casting and Story Rumors re: EPISODE VII

I agree with that sentiment. Obi-Wan died in ANH. Then appeared as a force ghost in ESB/ROTJ. Yoda died in ROTJ. Appeared as a force ghost at the end. Vader/Anakin died in ROTJ. Appeared as a force ghost at the end.

It just seemed like something Jedi could do, like lifting objects with the force. I really don't think it needed any kind of special "training" explanation.

 

[Timelord79 (he/him)]

Re: New Casting and Story Rumors re: EPISODE VII

I agree with that sentiment. Obi-Wan died in ANH. Then appeared as a force ghost in ESB/ROTJ. Yoda died in ROTJ. Appeared as a force ghost at the end. Vader/Anakin died in ROTJ. Appeared as a force ghost at the end.

It just seemed like something Jedi could do, like lifting objects with the force. I really don't think it needed any kind of special "training" explanation.

Lifting stuff with the force needs to be trained. It doesn't come that naturally from what we've seen.
Though some are more talented at it than others.
a potent Jedi like Anakin might in fact be able to do it without training... Obi Wan may have needed to train for it.
though how one trains dying is a bit beyond me. Maybe it is a form of astral projection and the hard part is to make that state permanent.

 

[Reverend]

Re: New Casting and Story Rumors re: EPISODE VII

Honestly I can see both sides of the argument. On the one hand, in the context of what we saw (but was never explained) in the OT it seems like a retcon.
On the other hand it would appear that becoming a force ghost is the equivalent of achieving enlightenment and reaching nirvana. Not the kind of thing that automatically happens just by being a Buddhist or even a monk, it (supposedly) takes a lifetime(s?) of training and meditation and even then, few are said to make it.

Likewise, I can totally buy that for a Jedi, this is a very rare, neigh unheard of thing.

 

[cooleddie74]

Re: New Casting and Story Rumors re: EPISODE VII

I'm really glad they took the time to cover that in TCW. When Yoda brought it up to Obi-Wan in ROTS it kind of came out of the blue. It's unfortunate that Neeson wasn't available to record that dialogue for the movie, or whatever happened, but the show really made up for it.

Same here. A friend of mine used to point to Yoda's revelation to Obi-Wan at the end of Revenge of the Sith as one of those WTF? moments that George poorly explained and just threw at the audience from out of left field, and while I understood the reference to a Jedi learning how to retain their consciousness and become a spirit after physical death (thanks, lifetime of being a geek!) other people didn't, and I kind of wish Liam Neeson had been able to participate in the completion of Episode III and record some dialogue to finish the sequence on the Polis Massan asteroid.

I'm glad The Clone Wars picked up that ball and did something with it. It's one of the reasons I enjoyed Season 6 so much - tying up loose ends is a virtue.

 

[DWF]

Re: New Casting and Story Rumors re: EPISODE VII

I agree with that sentiment. Obi-Wan died in ANH. Then appeared as a force ghost in ESB/ROTJ. Yoda died in ROTJ. Appeared as a force ghost at the end. Vader/Anakin died in ROTJ. Appeared as a force ghost at the end.

It just seemed like something Jedi could do, like lifting objects with the force. I really don't think it needed any kind of special "training" explanation.

Yoda and Obi-Wan spent some 20 years on their own doing little more than meditating, so they were ready to pass over. And Anakin came from the Force so he simply went back to it.

 

[Set Harth]

Re: New Casting and Story Rumors re: EPISODE VII

(much like Midichlorians to explain the Force itself).

Midichlorians don't explain the Force itself, they explain variable Force sensitivity. The Force was explained in ANH & TESB.

I'm really glad they took the time to cover that in TCW. When Yoda brought it up to Obi-Wan in ROTS it kind of came out of the blue. It's unfortunate that Neeson wasn't available to record that dialogue for the movie, or whatever happened, but the show really made up for it.

The essential information was conveyed in the ROTS scene. You don't really need what was covered in the deleted scene to move the plot along, and it didn't include the cosmic Force stuff from TCW. Sure, it name-dropped the Whills, which would have been nice to get into movie-canon. But it wasn't required to get the main point across.

And Anakin came from the Force so he simply went back to it.

Supposedly his 'ghosting' was due to the intercession of Obi-Wan and Yoda.