Star Wars: Episode VII: The Nerd Rage Awakens

[cooleddie74]

Re: New Casting and Story Rumors re: EPISODE VII

^
Obi-Wan, actually.

Ryder Windham's (quite terrific) novelization of the events during the final moments of Anakin Skywalker's life depicts him crossing over to the Star Wars version of the Other Side and finding little more than a void at first, but then Obi-Wan's Force spirit begins communicating with Anakin to set him at ease and let him know that his heroic sacrifices during the final minutes of his life not only fulfilled the prophecy of the Chosen One but were a redeeming act for his soul after all the pain and tragedy he'd caused over the decades as Darth Vader. Obi-Wan tells Anakin that his consciousness can indeed survive physical death and he'll show him how to do so before it fades into nonexistence.

The next we know Anakin, Yoda and Obi-Wan are materializing before Luke on Endor during the victory celebration.

 

[Mr. Adventure]

Re: New Casting and Story Rumors re: EPISODE VII

My own personal fanon/whatever idea is that since the Force binds everything together that a Force user who has passed to "the other side" can still establish a connection with other still living Force users they had known and had a close bond with. So while Luke lives (and others who the Jedi have known) they can maintain a presence.

 

[davejames]

Re: New Casting and Story Rumors re: EPISODE VII

Honestly I can see both sides of the argument. On the one hand, in the context of what we saw (but was never explained) in the OT it seems like a retcon.
On the other hand it would appear that becoming a force ghost is the equivalent of achieving enlightenment and reaching nirvana. Not the kind of thing that automatically happens just by being a Buddhist or even a monk, it (supposedly) takes a lifetime(s?) of training and meditation and even then, few are said to make it.

Likewise, I can totally buy that for a Jedi, this is a very rare, neigh unheard of thing.

Having it be the natural result of a lot of extra training and meditation beforehand I would understand. But the way Lucas and TCW now make it seem like something you specifically train to do-- as if hanging around as a sparkly blue ghost for eternity is something every Jedi secretly wants to do-- is what seems odd to me.


Speaking of force ghosts, I wonder what the odds are of seeing Yoda again in the new trilogy are? Either speaking to Luke or to one of the younger Jedi in the movie? I haven't heard much rumored about it yet, but it seems to me that it's got to be a strong possibility. And it would definitely be cool as hell to see...

 

[cooleddie74]

Re: New Casting and Story Rumors re: EPISODE VII

Oh, I think we'll see Spirit Yoda again. A CGI ghost of the little green guy is one of those things I always expected to see again if any movies or TV projects set after Jedi were ever produced. No on-set puppetry required and since he'd be a ghost he wouldn't need to be in a lot of scenes and a major character of the film, so the digital effects team wouldn't have nearly as much to do this time around.

 

[DWF]

Re: New Casting and Story Rumors re: EPISODE VII

I really don't see the need to bring back Force ghost Yoda the series needs to move forward, but seeng that Abrams brought back old Spock twice that's not going to happen.

 

[davejames]

Re: New Casting and Story Rumors re: EPISODE VII

Yeah I suppose they could easily insert the CGI Yoda, but personally I'd much rather see the puppet again. I think it'd make the moment feel much more special and important than if it was just another CGI creation.

And plus it would provide a bit more consistency with how he looked in the OT, instead of jumping from CG to puppet to CG again.

 

[Set Harth]

Re: New Casting and Story Rumors re: EPISODE VII

^
Obi-Wan, actually.

It depends on which source you're looking at.

In Windham's books it's just Obi-Wan.

In the DVD commentary for ROTJ Lucas refers to both of them.

And I believe the Annotated Screenplays refer to just Yoda in this context.

So I guess I should have said "Obi-Wan and/or Yoda".

 

[cooleddie74]

Re: New Casting and Story Rumors re: EPISODE VII

I suppose once Anakin transitioned to the Other Side both Yoda and Obi-Wan could instruct him on how to preserve and maintain himself in spirit form. Yoda, after all, knew about the process before even Obi-Wan did (and also had hundreds of years' worth of Jedi training and experience in other things on top of that).

Who knows, perhaps even Qui-Gon showed up at some point along the way.

 

[Reverend]

Re: New Casting and Story Rumors re: EPISODE VII

Honestly I can see both sides of the argument. On the one hand, in the context of what we saw (but was never explained) in the OT it seems like a retcon.
On the other hand it would appear that becoming a force ghost is the equivalent of achieving enlightenment and reaching nirvana. Not the kind of thing that automatically happens just by being a Buddhist or even a monk, it (supposedly) takes a lifetime(s?) of training and meditation and even then, few are said to make it.

Likewise, I can totally buy that for a Jedi, this is a very rare, neigh unheard of thing.

Having it be the natural result of a lot of extra training and meditation beforehand I would understand. But the way Lucas and TCW now make it seem like something you specifically train to do-- as if hanging around as a sparkly blue ghost for eternity is something every Jedi secretly wants to do-- is what seems odd to me.

I think there's suppsoed to be a lot more to it than just being a "force ghost". Indeed, that seems like it's only a side-ability that results from becoming one with the force, but maintaining individuality. Between Obi Wan's line in ANH and what was hinted at by the five Priestesses in TCW I think they truly become higher beings, not just disembodied minds.

IIRC in one early draft of RotJ, Obi Wan and/or Yoda both fully materialized and fought the Emperor beside Luke. I'm glad that idea was dropped, but it indicates the extent of what Lucas thought they could do whe he wrote the line "...I shall become more powerful than you could possibly imagine."

As such it'd make *less* sense if a Jedi didn't need to specifically train for this. Near godhood is hardly the kind of thing a person just stumbles over and figures out as they go.

Who knows, perhaps even Qui-Gon showed up at some point along the way.

In retrospect, more than likely given he tutored everyone else in this.

 

[cooleddie74]

Re: New Casting and Story Rumors re: EPISODE VII

And: cue the CGI addition of "Spirit Qui-Gon" to the next home video release of Jedi.

Search your feelings. You know it to be....remotely plausible under certain conditions.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Re: New Casting and Story Rumors re: EPISODE VII

And: cue the CGI addition of "Spirit Qui-Gon" to the next home video release of Jedi.

Search your feelings. You know it to be....remotely plausible under certain conditions.

cooleddie: Worse than Tarkin.

 

[cooleddie74]

Re: New Casting and Story Rumors re: EPISODE VII

Oh, I don't endorse it. I just know what whores both Lucasfilm and Disney can be if they think they can sell a new edition of something.

Continue with the prognostications. You may diatribe when ready.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Re: New Casting and Story Rumors re: EPISODE VII

You're absolutely correct.

 

[Reverend]

Re: New Casting and Story Rumors re: EPISODE VII

Actually, going by what is said in TCW they can't do that since they specifically mention that Qui-Gon is incapable of appearing as a ghost. I forget the details but I think it's something along the lines that he hadn't completed the training when he died, which is why his body remained. I think it's also the reason why it took him over a decade to make contact and even then only just barely.

 

[Set Harth]

Re: New Casting and Story Rumors re: EPISODE VII

Lucas also said pretty much the same thing at some point, before TCW.

 

[davejames]

Re: New Casting and Story Rumors re: EPISODE VII

That's just what I mean. Somehow the miraculous ability to continue on as a disembodied voice and/or sparkly lights wasn't enough. What you actually wanted was the ability to appear before people as a sparkly ghost as well... for some reason.

Regardless of how you justify it, it was all just a little too specific and over-explanatory for my taste (which isn't to say I didn't love the heck out of that final Yoda arc anyway).

 

[kirk55555]

Re: New Casting and Story Rumors re: EPISODE VII

I always figured that a sufficiently powerful Jedi could do it, or at least one with a significant connection to someone. I'd think it would have more to do with Jedi's general experience with using the Force, and not specific training. I'm not even sure how someone could develop specific training for that. I mean, I guess being a force ghost is done however they say it is, but personally I think having specific training is a bit weird.

 

[Skywalker]

Re: New Casting and Story Rumors re: EPISODE VII

I really don't understand what's so weird about it. Jedi have to train to master every other aspect of the Force. If every Jedi could just naturally live on through the Force after physical death, why can't Sith do it?

 

[Reverend]

Re: New Casting and Story Rumors re: EPISODE VII

That's just what I mean. Somehow the miraculous ability to continue on as a disembodied voice and/or sparkly lights wasn't enough. What you actually wanted was the ability to appear before people as a sparkly ghost as well... for some reason.

Regardless of how you justify it, it was all just a little too specific and over-explanatory for my taste (which isn't to say I didn't love the heck out of that final Yoda arc anyway).

There is some logic to it if you think of the disappearing act as the physical body becoming one with the force as well as the spirit (for lack of a better term.) Without that they have no form to project into the physical plain. This seems to be reinforced by the fact that Obi Wan is seen interacting with physical objects on Dagobah, so it's not as if he's immaterial.

Where that somewhat falls apart is the way Anakin appears as a whole person (regardless of the actor) instead of a limbless torso and head.

Regardless, appearing as they do is a by-product of becoming one with the force, it's not the point of the process in and of itself.

 

[kirk55555]

Re: New Casting and Story Rumors re: EPISODE VII

I really don't understand what's so weird about it. Jedi have to train to master every other aspect of the Force. If every Jedi could just naturally live on through the Force after physical death, why can't Sith do it?

I don't think every Jedi should be able to do it, just powerful jedi that die. Yoda and Obi Wan were experienced Jedi masters. Someone like, say, Ashoka (its hard to find a normal Jedi knight to use as an example that most people would know) wouldn't become a ghost when she died, she'd just be dead. Qui-Gon is a bit tricky, but I can believe that even among powerful jedi its rare, and probably is a combination of general force aptitude and being connected to someone living.

Also, Sith could live past death in the EU. It happened several times with powerful Sith from ancient times, and I think they later explained that the knowledge was lost over time. That doesn't count any more, but it doesn't sound unreasonable to me to see a darkside ghost, maybe in places with strong connections to the dark side.