Star Wars Episode 3: Was there as epic as this?

[Set Harth]

I can think of several options that would not involve being shot.

Such as?

In addition, Yoda has certainly demonstrated that clones are not an issue.

The Order 66 attack on the Jedi temple has demonstrated that overwhelming numbers of clones are always an issue. Yoda was oddly lucky that only two clones tried to kill him on Kashyyyk.

This is a possibility, but the Jedi keep saying that they sense the power of the Dark Side, both in Dooku, as well as surrounding the Chancellor.

In Dooku's case he had already hit Anakin with lightning by that point. He had been using the Force. Sensing the dark side in someone who's either engaging in lightsaber combat with you or otherwise actively using the Force right in front of you is likely not that hard, but I don't think the same can necessarily be said for other situations.

As for Palpatine, you're complaining that they couldn't tell he was a Sith lord yet backing up your position by saying they could sense the dark side surrounding him. I'm not sure I see the problem.

and one fight decides it all?

That's how things usually work in fantasy fiction. Sometimes even in real life.

I'm sorry, but if this is a clash between good and evil, especially with the emphasis on Jedi being similar to samurai

The Jedi may be influenced in part by samurai, but I don't think we should treat it as a one-to-one correspondence. There are other influences as well.

Yoda should be figuring out the next strike, or left for dead

Left for dead sacrifices the future. He's playing the long game; some might call that a form of wisdom.

Explained it how? That Qui-Gon learned it? From who?

Does it really matter who or what he learned it from? It wouldn't do anything to advance the plot of the film. We're told that he discovered it somehow.

Why don't all Jedi ghosty?

Not only did I explain this in my last post, but as explained in that post, this is explained by the film's presentation.

Lucas does not get credit for having things explained in the book but not in the film.

This seems like it's heading toward strawman territory. In my opinion the material presented in the film is enough.

Many fans have complained that Nero's story and motivation makes no sense.

Just because a fan has said it doesn't mean that it must be true.

However, as much as I enjoy Star Trek comics, I should not have to read more backstory in order to understand a movie.

One does not have to read more backstory to understand STXI.

Not based on what I have read in the making of book. Much of what ended up on screen was same-day changes that Lucas just came up with. From what I read, it does not feel like a coherent plan. Sorry, I don't buy that.

Just like I don't buy your imagined version of events. And I won't, until there is specific evidence backing it up. People speculating on the internet doesn't really cut it for me.

I know that they are going to die, and that frustrates me.

Then your real issue is more with the concept of prequels in general than with these films specifically.

 

[fireproof78]

I can think of several options that would not involve being shot.

Such as?

Utilizing the starship and other resources currently presented by Organa and his allies. Reaching out towards the Wookies or other powers to help. Organizing a rebellion and not waiting 20 years to fight back. There are more options than just running away to wait for years.

In addition, Yoda has certainly demonstrated that clones are not an issue.

The Order 66 attack on the Jedi temple has demonstrated that overwhelming numbers of clones are always an issue. Yoda was oddly lucky that only two clones tried to kill him on Kashyyyk.

Yet, Obi-Wan and Yoda are able to defeat those remaining at the Temple and gain access to the archives. So, he has dealt with multiple clones.

In Dooku's case he had already hit Anakin with lightning by that point. He had been using the Force. Sensing the dark side in someone who's either engaging in lightsaber combat with you or otherwise actively using the Force right in front of you is likely not that hard, but I don't think the same can necessarily be said for other situations.

As for Palpatine, you're complaining that they couldn't tell he was a Sith lord yet backing up your position by saying they could sense the dark side surrounding him. I'm not sure I see the problem.

Ok, how is not telling he is a Sith Lord, even though the power of the Dark Side surrounds him? How many other people do the power of the Dark Side surround? Is this a common occurrence?

That's how things usually work in fantasy fiction. Sometimes even in real life.

Ok, sure.

The Jedi may be influenced in part by samurai, but I don't think we should treat it as a one-to-one correspondence. There are other influences as well.

And yet the Jedi are willing to sacrifice themselves in the name of the greater good. This is actually at the core of the novel and why Anakin is not a good Jedi, because he is not willing to sacrifice anyone.

Left for dead sacrifices the future. He's playing the long game; some might call that a form of wisdom.

Left for dead does not imply something Yoda is doing but rather the results of the fight. It is why the Emperor would no longer be trying to find Yoda in the OT.

Does it really matter who or what he learned it from? It wouldn't do anything to advance the plot of the film. We're told that he discovered it somehow.

If that is enough for you, that is fine. It is not enough for me.

Not only did I explain this in my last post, but as explained in that post, this is explained by the film's presentation.

Ok, but Qui-Gon figured out how to come back from the netherworld-somehow.

This seems like it's heading toward strawman territory. In my opinion the material presented in the film is enough.

Fair enough. In my opinion, it is not.

Just because a fan has said it doesn't mean that it must be true.

Neither does it mean it must be false. It must be investigated.

One does not have to read more backstory to understand STXI.

On this I agree, but not everyone does. Even if you don't agree, there is still frustration and annoyance that people will point to outside sources other than the film to help people understand it. That is the source of frustration.

Not based on what I have read in the making of book. Much of what ended up on screen was same-day changes that Lucas just came up with. From what I read, it does not feel like a coherent plan. Sorry, I don't buy that.

Just like I don't buy your imagined version of events. And I won't, until there is specific evidence backing it up. People speculating on the internet doesn't really cut it for me.

Well, I will table that point until I can read the making of book again and review it in detail.

I know that they are going to die, and that frustrates me.

Then your real issue is more with the concept of prequels in general than with these films specifically.

Not really. You can tell me a character is doomed to die no matter what they do and still give me the impression that they have a chase of escape, even if I already know that they don't. The Clone Wars series did this in a way that I am starting to enjoy.

Like I said, my problem with the prequels is the lack of characters. They are not people in the sense that I feel that they are living in that world and reacting to events as they unfold. I do not feel that they have desires or wants outside the dictates of the story.

I do not feel that the good guys should win nor do I feel like the bad guys should lose. In making the Jedi out to be so incompetent it makes me angry that I thought they were ever the good guys. It introduces shades of gray in to a story that had been black and white in the originals. Because of that tone shift, the two do not gel well together.

I have no sympathy towards Anakin, nor do I feel like he is a good hero. He is not a tragic character in the sense of MacBeth, Gollum or others from fiction. He is feels like a whiny teenager who kills everyone because the story says he needs to be bad.

As I have said before, it isn't the concept of the prequels that bothers me, but the way the characters are presented and the way the story unfolds.

 

[Set Harth]

Utilizing the starship and other resources currently presented by Organa and his allies.

To do what? Have a shootout between Organa's ship and the entire Republic/Empire fleet?

Reaching out towards the Wookies or other powers to help.

"All these Wookiees are dead, move to the east." The Wookiees appear to have their own problems. But it's the same issue as with Bail. How is the enlistment of some Wookiees likely to be a decisive factor? Bringing these allies into it probably just means you end up with less allies.

Yet, Obi-Wan and Yoda are able to defeat those remaining at the Temple and gain access to the archives. So, he has dealt with multiple clones.

But that was still a limited number caught by surprise; Palpatine has more to throw at him.

And yet the Jedi are willing to sacrifice themselves in the name of the greater good.

But it's not clear that Yoda would accomplish anything by sacrificing himself immediately after ROTS, while surviving to train Luke is what ends up serving the greater good.

Ok, but Qui-Gon figured out how to come back from the netherworld-somehow.

You think?

You can tell me a character is doomed to die no matter what they do and still give me the impression that they have a chase of escape, even if I already know that they don't.

Then you're kidding yourself, and I don't see why this "chance of escape" cannot be perceived in ROTS if it can be perceived elsewhere.

Like I said, my problem with the prequels is the lack of characters. They are not people in the sense that I feel that they are living in that world and reacting to events as they unfold.

That is basically an absurd complaint. Besides, you also said that your problem was that you knew characters had to die and that made you frustrated. That's a problem with the general concept of a prequel.

In making the Jedi out to be so incompetent it makes me angry that I thought they were ever the good guys.

Competence and "good guy" status are separate, uncorrelated issues. That you perceive someone to be incompetent does not mean that you should assume the person did not qualify as a "good guy". By the same token, Palpatine is largely competent ( notable exceptions aside ); does that mean we should be angry if we thought he was a bad guy?

It introduces shades of gray in to a story that had been black and white in the originals. Because of that tone shift, the two do not gel well together.

The two would not be expected to be mirror images of one another, in that they portray the Jedi and the galaxy in different circumstances and at different points in time. Some might say that making the PT Jedi ( or any characters, really ) more complex and flawed is an appropriate direction to take. Again, this does not mean that the good guys and bad guys cannot be identified.

 

[P0sitr0nic]

Explained it how? That Qui-Gon learned it? From who? How does it work? Why don't all Jedi ghosty?

The last 3 episodes of the Clone wars deals with this.


Personally I think the most "epic" part of Ep 3 was the intro battle over Coruscant.

 

[fireproof78]

Utilizing the starship and other resources currently presented by Organa and his allies.

To do what? Have a shootout between Organa's ship and the entire Republic/Empire fleet?

That is hardly the only option. Otherwise, we wouldn't have the Rebellion.

Reaching out towards the Wookies or other powers to help.

"All these Wookiees are dead, move to the east." The Wookiees appear to have their own problems. But it's the same issue as with Bail. How is the enlistment of some Wookiees likely to be a decisive factor? Bringing these allies into it probably just means you end up with less allies.

Not necessarily, though I do see your point. I get that the Empire is being built in to a military machine, but that doesn't mean that you cannot fight it, as the Rebels demonstrate.

Also, Yoda could end up in more of a Gandalf capacity, advising, even from afar.

But that was still a limited number caught by surprise; Palpatine has more to throw at him.

True, but I'm not expecting him to take on the entire Clone Army. That should be saved for Starkiller

But it's not clear that Yoda would accomplish anything by sacrificing himself immediately after ROTS, while surviving to train Luke is what ends up serving the greater good.

Perhaps. But you can have him survive beyond just a straight up exile attitude.

You think?

Yeah, I do, contrary to popular belief

In addition, my point of contention with the Force-ghost is simply that it does not have a set up inside of the prequels, nor is Obi-Wan's "strike me down and I shall become more powerful" attitude fully explained in Episode 4. It feels like it introduces an ability of the Jedi, without giving a rhyme or reason in the films. Again, novel does it very well.

Then you're kidding yourself, and I don't see why this "chance of escape" cannot be perceived in ROTS if it can be perceived elsewhere.

I'm "kidding myself?" How so? My goal is to feel like they have the opportunity to change their fate, even if briefly. Many fan fiction have been written with the idea that if one change had happened, perhaps things would be different. But, the characters do not act that way, and so it feels like the story is fixed in its course, with no one questioning anything.

That is basically an absurd complaint. Besides, you also said that your problem was that you knew characters had to die and that made you frustrated. That's a problem with the general concept of a prequel.

Hold on, you are missing my point. I don't have a problem that they are going to die, if they are presented as people I can care about. For me, the characters are not presented in a manner that makes me empathetic or sympathetic towards their position.

I don't have a problem with the prequels being prequels. I have a problem with the characters and how the story is presented.

In making the Jedi out to be so incompetent it makes me angry that I thought they were ever the good guys.

Competence and "good guy" status are separate, uncorrelated issues. That you perceive someone to be incompetent does not mean that you should assume the person did not qualify as a "good guy". By the same token, Palpatine is largely competent ( notable exceptions aside ); does that mean we should be angry if we thought he was a bad guy?

How Palpatine is presented, I am more likely to want him to win, and the Jedi to lose. That is how I feel when I watch these films. If someone is going to win, it should be because they are outsmarting their opponent, not waiting for their opponent to be stupid.

Also, perhaps incompetence is a poor word choice. I just feel that Palpatine wins because the Jedi are generally ignorant and stupid.

It introduces shades of gray in to a story that had been black and white in the originals. Because of that tone shift, the two do not gel well together.

The two would not be expected to be mirror images of one another, in that they portray the Jedi and the galaxy in different circumstances and at different points in time. Some might say that making the PT Jedi ( or any characters, really ) more complex and flawed is an appropriate direction to take. Again, this does not mean that the good guys and bad guys cannot be identified.

I'm not wanting a mirror image of the original. The Jedi do not feel complex to me. They are singularly focused, myopic, organization who deserve what they get. And, I shouldn't feel that way. I should be sad that the Jedi are slaughtered, but it's hard to feel that way.

Beyond that, I really don't want this to turn in to a wall of text ranting against the prequels. I don't hate the prequels the way that many others do, nor do I think they are "the worst movie ever" or "have ruined Star Wars" or whatever hyperbole exists on the Internet.

In addition, I realize that I have been a bit negative here. And you know what, I don't want to be that way. So, for starters, if you like the prequels or think they are wonderful, or they bring you joy, good. I'm glad and I mean that sincerely.

Also, thinking on this today, here is a list of things that I like the prequels for and think they did well, in no particular, save for the last one, which is my favorite moment:

1. Battle of Geonsis: From the start at the Arena with Padme, Anakin and Obi-Wan to the Clones showing up, I enjoy this sequence a lot. I think it is well done, and it is exciting to see the Jedi working in a large group, even if they are getting slaughtered. The moment when all the sabers activate inside the arena, and Mace Windu goes "This party's over" I smile and love it.

2. Naboo: Hands down, one of the most beautiful planets in the Star Wars galaxy. I love the scenery, as well as the aesthetic of the architecture and ships. Everything looks so refined and elegant. I wish the rest of the galaxy had a similar feel to it, and be in sharp contrast to the more run down galaxy in the OT.

3. Starships: Just in general, I love space craft. This trilogy features so many to enjoy that it is hard to name a specific one. I wish the Republic Navy pre-Clone Wars was more defined beyond the Jedi ships, but the variety is very interesting and makes me feel more depth to the starship design.

4. Clone troopers: While they become bad guys and stormtroopers later, there is a certain coolness to seeing them moving in formation and the sense of discipline presented. The Clone Wars series makes it even more interesting, but even in the films there is a nice build up of their presence.

5. Obi-Wan fighting Jango: a different take on the usual blaster versus lightsaber fight. It was nice to see a little change and Obi-Wan being challenged. Also, good humor.

There is more but I will save it for later

 

[AgentCoop]

One of my favorite moments in the entire Prequel Trilogy is when Obi-Wan realizes a second too late that maybe he shouldn't have kicked Jango over the side: "Ohh, not good."

 

[Morpheus 02]

i think the arrogance of the Jedi and the lack of detecting the Dark Side (i.e. Palpatine) makes their defeat VERY plausible. It's that type of complacency why good doesn't seem to last very long in real life.

That also seems to center on the leadership of the Jedi, so Palpatine just focuses on a small group.

That also shows REAL power of the Dark Side to cloak onesself in the presence of Jedi.

The OT is our "clue" that there is "hope"...at this point in time, things should look real bleak.


My main nit is why Obi Wan looked so old 20 years later and Yoda died. It would have been "nice" if Palpatine's force lightning zapped some"lifeforce" from them, to make them weaker.

 

[Set Harth]

The Jedi do not feel complex to me.

"It introduces shades of gray in to a story that had been black and white in the originals." That's what I meant by complex.

I'm not wanting a mirror image of the original.

But you insisted that the two didn't gel well together because they were not equally "black and white". So you wanted them to be mirror images at least on that count.

They are singularly focused, myopic, organization who deserve what they get.

Not really, no. There are many focused people in the real world, and generally speaking they hardly deserve death for the crime of being focused or myopic.

I just feel that Palpatine wins because the Jedi are generally ignorant and stupid.

That still doesn't preclude their being the good guys. They fight, as Obi-Wan says, to preserve democracy. There is a sufficiently clear distinction between them and their nemeses.

That is hardly the only option. Otherwise, we wouldn't have the Rebellion.

Do we have a Rebellion right after ROTS? What are these other options?

In addition, my point of contention with the Force-ghost is simply that it does not have a set up inside of the prequels

But it does.

nor is Obi-Wan's "strike me down and I shall become more powerful" attitude fully explained in Episode 4. It feels like it introduces an ability of the Jedi, without giving a rhyme or reason in the films. Again, novel does it very well.

The novel doesn't do any more than the films to explain why Force ghosts should be considered more powerful than Vader could imagine.

Many fan fiction have been written with the idea that if one change had happened, perhaps things would be different.

And you really can't see anything of this nature in ROTS? It's made fairly obvious at one point.

If someone is going to win, it should be because they are outsmarting their opponent, not waiting for their opponent to be stupid.

Isn't that kind of the same thing?

That also shows REAL power of the Dark Side to cloak onesself in the presence of Jedi.

It helps when you refrain from using the Force right in front of them.

 

[ReadyAndWilling]

What do you mean by 'Force Ghost'?

 

[Set Harth]