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Star Wars EPIII: Could the Jedi Order have defeated Palpatine/Sidious?

JediKnightButler

Fleet Captain
Fleet Captain
I watched Episode III this past weekend when they were showing it on Spike and was wondering if anybody else thought that Mace acted too rashly against Palpatine/Sidious, seemingly against Yoda's earlier advice about approaching the crisis over Palpatine's willingness to give up his "emergency powers" more cautiously? Leaving aside for the moment, of course, the fact that the outcome had to remain the same for the sake of continuity (of course), how might the Jedi Council have handled the crisis differently in order to create a better outcome for the Order? They were arguably in a difficult if not impossible situation to begin with but was there *anything* that could've been done to neutralize Palpatine/Sidious and/or prevent the activation of Order 66? Is there an "Infinities" story that addresses this?
 
Re: Star Wars EPIII: Could the Jedi Order have defeated Palpatine/Sidi

They couldve started by not crowding the foyer with their light sabers out. Fish in a barrel.
 
Re: Star Wars EPIII: Could the Jedi Order have defeated Palpatine/Sidi

They couldve started by not crowding the foyer with their light sabers out. Fish in a barrel.

That's for sure. He took out all of the Jedi except for Mace almost instantaneously. They probably should've spread themselves out throughout the entire office. Also, why didn't they get the Clones to help them arrest Palpatine? In the "Labyrinth of Evil" novel, the Clones were actively helping Mace and the Jedi in the hunt for Sidious. By this point, Order 66 had not been triggered, so why wouldn't they have helped the Jedi? Or did Mace just not think of using them to help?
 
Re: Star Wars EPIII: Could the Jedi Order have defeated Palpatine/Sidi

My thought when watching that scene was similar to Brody's in Jaws.

"You're going to need more Jedi."

Obviously, they had to go after Palpatine. Although wondering if the plan was ill-conceived is more than fair. For instance...what exactly were they arresting him on? Because Anakin told them that he was a Sith? Sure, we know he is but how the hell were the Jedi going to explain that to the Senate and the galaxy at large? There wasn't any legal grounds to arrest Palpatine on.

It would make an interesting story though. Successfully arresting Palpatine might have ended up blowing up in the Jedi's face.
 
Re: Star Wars EPIII: Could the Jedi Order have defeated Palpatine/Sidi

They couldve started by not crowding the foyer with their light sabers out. Fish in a barrel.

That scene bugged me. Did mace bring Jedi who were first day on the job, or something?!

I wanted to see the Jedi floss Palpatine's teeth with their lightsabers, but we all knew that wasn't going to happen. I would at least have liked something a little different than that, though.
 
Re: Star Wars EPIII: Could the Jedi Order have defeated Palpatine/Sidi

My thought when watching that scene was similar to Brody's in Jaws.

"You're going to need more Jedi."

Obviously, they had to go after Palpatine. Although wondering if the plan was ill-conceived is more than fair. For instance...what exactly were they arresting him on? Because Anakin told them that he was a Sith? Sure, we know he is but how the hell were the Jedi going to explain that to the Senate and the galaxy at large? There wasn't any legal grounds to arrest Palpatine on.

It would make an interesting story though. Successfully arresting Palpatine might have ended up blowing up in the Jedi's face.

It became confusing to me exactly what their goal was and how exactly they were going to achieve it. How exactly do you "arrest" a Sith Lord much less convince the Senate and, more importantly, the public of Palpatine's machiavelian machinations regarding the Clone Wars? Sadly, I think that most people would've believed Palpatine and the Jedi would've looked like a a bunch of crazies picking on a charming (albeit secretly diabolical) old man. And not many people beyond the Jedi Order would've even known anything about the Sith let alone believe that Palpatine was a Sith Lord. Basically, an imprisonment/trial would've been a PR disaster for the Jedi Order and put to a vote/trial, Palpatine would've gotten off scot-free and the Jedi would've probably been disgraced worse than they were after they were mercilessly exterminated via Order 66.
Mace obviously seemed to realize this towards the end of his fight with Palpatine and seemed fully prepared to strike Palpatine down- which, arguably, might have been his goal from the start anyway. It was kind of interesting how Anakin was wracked with guilt over his decision to kill Dooku because of Palpatine's insistence that it would be too dangerous to let him live, hands or no hands, but Mace was fully engaged and prepared to strike Palpatine down for the exact same (but correct) reason and Anakin, because Padme's life was at stake, suddenly decided to take a *convenient* moral stand against killing a clearly dangerous opponent (although of course he almost certainly had less reservations about killing Dooku than he did Palpatine/Sidious).
 
Re: Star Wars EPIII: Could the Jedi Order have defeated Palpatine/Sidi

It's ironic, really, but the Jedi's solution is essentially a military coup.
 
Re: Star Wars EPIII: Could the Jedi Order have defeated Palpatine/Sidi

They might have had a chance if they went after him with no warning, but that's not the Jedi way. So they really can't win.
 
Re: Star Wars EPIII: Could the Jedi Order have defeated Palpatine/Sidi

And not many people beyond the Jedi Order would've even known anything about the Sith let alone believe that Palpatine was a Sith Lord. Basically, an imprisonment/trial would've been a PR disaster for the Jedi Order and put to a vote/trial, Palpatine would've gotten off scot-free and the Jedi would've probably been disgraced worse than they were after they were mercilessly exterminated via Order 66.

could we really say that. we really don't get much information on the average citizen. maybe they were taught about the sith in public schools after all in galatic history the sith did once rule.
 
Re: Star Wars EPIII: Could the Jedi Order have defeated Palpatine/Sidi

well, they could've started by making sure they read the Orders and Regulations of the Grand Army of the Republic. and paid attention.
 
Re: Star Wars EPIII: Could the Jedi Order have defeated Palpatine/Sidi

well, they could've started by making sure they read the Orders and Regulations of the Grand Army of the Republic. and paid attention.

True...

"Hey, I see an order 65 and order 67 but somehow order 66 is missing."
 
Re: Star Wars EPIII: Could the Jedi Order have defeated Palpatine/Sidi

I watched Episode III this past weekend when they were showing it on Spike and was wondering if anybody else thought that Mace acted too rashly against Palpatine/Sidious, seemingly against Yoda's earlier advice about approaching the crisis over Palpatine's willingness to give up his "emergency powers" more cautiously? Leaving aside for the moment, of course, the fact that the outcome had to remain the same for the sake of continuity (of course), how might the Jedi Council have handled the crisis differently in order to create a better outcome for the Order? They were arguably in a difficult if not impossible situation to begin with but was there *anything* that could've been done to neutralize Palpatine/Sidious and/or prevent the activation of Order 66? Is there an "Infinities" story that addresses this?

I wish they would do a lot more 'Infinities', but either they didn't sell or perhaps Lucas withdrew permission out of fear of confusing casual viewers/readers, which I don't agree with, but I can see how he'd arrive at that.

The situation with confronting Palpatine reminded me a lot of Angel and the gang confronting Jasmine-possessed Cordelia. If you don't take into account where Anakin/Connor are, the plan can only go south.

Add to that, I think Mace's own method may have played against him. His saber technique, I believe, 'skirted' the edges of the dark side, and that may have made him especially vulnerable to Palpatine's manipulation. He never questioned why a Sith Lord would simply up and confess his position. By that point, all were dancing to Palpatine's tune. Ironically, Anakin was left with the greatest amount of free will, but by this point, he had been so shaped and molded by Palpatine's treachery, he had tunnel vision regarding that choice. If Palps plans had a chance of being thwarted, it was in 1 or 2. Perhaps Qui-Gon survives instead of Obi-Wan, or both do. Perhaps Jar-Jar is killed by the assasin out to kill Padme, and no other Senator/Rep is naive/bold enough to be tricked into that pivotal speech.

I'm among those that believes that Palps gambled a lot during his rise to power. The games were largely rigged, but he did take chances. His ultimate rise occurred when he gambled on whether he really had Anakin in his grip when facing Mace. His ultimate fall occurred when he just assumed that Luke's entreaties to his father would fall on deaf ears. He rose when he carefully played both sides of the chessboard. He fell when he just assumed his position to be unassailable--just like the Jedi Order before him.
 
Re: Star Wars EPIII: Could the Jedi Order have defeated Palpatine/Sidi

It's ironic, really, but the Jedi's solution is essentially a military coup.

That depends... Striking down a Sith Lord could be considered a legitimate military decision during war time. Either one, the civil war or the eternal war between the Jedi Order and the Sith cult in which case it would be an internal matter anyway.
The problem is providing proof that Palpatine was working against Republic interests and comitted war crimes.
 
Re: Star Wars EPIII: Could the Jedi Order have defeated Palpatine/Sidi

They should have brought ysamri with them.

Or however you spell the creatures that repell the force.
 
Re: Star Wars EPIII: Could the Jedi Order have defeated Palpatine/Sidi

The other problem is Jedi think in terms of honorable declared duels, where you show up, say hi to your enemy, take off your robe, then turn on your saber and face each other menacingly for awhile :p So in their minds, it was "we'll take all the Jedi Council members on Coruscant to confront him. We'll have a nice honorable duel, take away his lightsaber without killing him, and convince him to surrender like a nice Sith Lord".
 
Re: Star Wars EPIII: Could the Jedi Order have defeated Palpatine/Sidi

I personally think the endfight between Palpatine and Mace and his Extras would have been much better if it had atleast taken place in a larger setting. Also it would have had more impact if Palpatine had to actually fight off 3-4 Jedi for longer than 2-3 seconds. Just think of all the cool antagonizing lines Palpatine could have had if he was battleing all 4 Jedi for 4-5 minutes fighting them off and cocking them off at the same time...Like The Jedi have already lost...stuff like that. Then after 4-5 minutes of fighting all of the Jedi Mace had brought with him Palpatine starts picking them off one by one. At first Mace and his Jedi think they have the old Sith but as the Battle goes on you start to see that he had them all all-along. All the while his taunting getting beter and better untill Mace somehow gets the upperhand and then it unfolds like it did...
I think that would have been better...
 
Re: Star Wars EPIII: Could the Jedi Order have defeated Palpatine/Sidi

I think if they'd actually taken Anakin with them, things might have gone a bit differently. He didn't see the other three Master struck down; if he had gone, Sidious probably would've had to've acted a bit differently. Who knows what would have happened.
 
Re: Star Wars EPIII: Could the Jedi Order have defeated Palpatine/Sidi

well, they could've started by making sure they read the Orders and Regulations of the Grand Army of the Republic. and paid attention.

True...

"Hey, I see an order 65 and order 67 but somehow order 66 is missing."

no, they're there. it's just the Jedi never read 'em.

Order 65: if the Chancellor goes do lally, he gets removed and the acting chancellor takes over until the Chancellor's replaced.

Order 66: if the Jedi try to seize power, frag 'em.
 
Re: Star Wars EPIII: Could the Jedi Order have defeated Palpatine/Sidi

well, they could've started by making sure they read the Orders and Regulations of the Grand Army of the Republic. and paid attention.

True...

"Hey, I see an order 65 and order 67 but somehow order 66 is missing."


The Karen Traviss Republic Commando books actually spell out the orders in such a way that it's easy to see why the Jedi wouldn't have worried about them. I think Order 65 or 67 was about removing the Supreme Chancellor, in fact.
 
Re: Star Wars EPIII: Could the Jedi Order have defeated Palpatine/Sidi

It's ironic, really, but the Jedi's solution is essentially a military coup.

It's true. We know that Palpatine is a Sith and that the Jedi must act. But the public doesn't and given that the Jedi have absolutely no evidence to go on other than the word of Anakin, I don't see how they could have won this one.
 
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