Star Wars EPIII: Could the Jedi Order have defeated Palpatine/Sidious?

[Turd Ferguson]

Re: Star Wars EPIII: Could the Jedi Order have defeated Palpatine/Sidi

If only Mace would have waited for Obi-Wan and Yoda to return to Coruscant, I think they could have had him (shit, Mace DID have him himself until Anakin screwed it up). Technically, the only reason why the Republic sided with Palpatine was because it looked like the Jedi went rogue and tried assassinating him.

Palpatine couldn't have done anything, really, without the Jedi acting against him. So, if Windu had waited until Yoda came back from Kashyyyk and Obi-Wan from Utapau, they could have easily taken down Palps (although the backlash from the Republic would have been bad, not to mention Anakin pissing and moaning even more).

 

[Dream]

Re: Star Wars EPIII: Could the Jedi Order have defeated Palpatine/Sidi

In the EPIII novel Palpatine cleverly turned on a hidden audio recorder when Mace marched into his office to announce how the Jedi was going to arrest him. Palpatine stopped recorder after getting his evidence and then proceeded to rip the Jedi apart. I wished that had been in the movie.

 

[Unicron]

Re: Star Wars EPIII: Could the Jedi Order have defeated Palpatine/Sidi

I personally think the endfight between Palpatine and Mace and his Extras would have been much better if it had atleast taken place in a larger setting. Also it would have had more impact if Palpatine had to actually fight off 3-4 Jedi for longer than 2-3 seconds. Just think of all the cool antagonizing lines Palpatine could have had if he was battleing all 4 Jedi for 4-5 minutes fighting them off and cocking them off at the same time...Like The Jedi have already lost...stuff like that. Then after 4-5 minutes of fighting all of the Jedi Mace had brought with him Palpatine starts picking them off one by one. At first Mace and his Jedi think they have the old Sith but as the Battle goes on you start to see that he had them all all-along. All the while his taunting getting beter and better untill Mace somehow gets the upperhand and then it unfolds like it did...
I think that would have been better...

I agree. One thing I've always disliked about this sequence is how easily the other Jedi are slain by Sidious. I tend to think Anakin was also motivated by guilt when he saw Mace about to finish Palpatine off, since the latter had lured him into killing Dooku when he was helpless.

 

[Base_Delta_Zero]

Re: Star Wars EPIII: Could the Jedi Order have defeated Palpatine/Sidi

I want to say that in the book the other Jedi actually lasted a few extra heartbeats before Sidious casually cut them down and it was orginally going to be filmed like that, but Lucas changed his mind the day of shooting. Or maybe I just made that up.

Mace should have taken Anakin with him and they should have arrested Sidious, whether it was going to work out or not. They might as well say all police across the Republic can henceforth become vigilantes, if they think the badguy they're trying to arrest will somehow game the system and get off.

Prior to Order 66, I don't believe Yoda or Obi Wan would have gone along with assassinating the Chancellor, no matter who he turned out to be. In fact, it might have been interesting to have the two factions Mace (take em out) and Yoda (arrest him) conflict with each other during the confrontation with Palps.

As for cause, if Palps is suspected of being Sidious, then he can be charged with treason, as Sidious has already been identified (in the EU, I think) as being involved with the Seperatists. The fact he is a Sith shouldn't even come into it, unless freedom of religion doesn't exist in the Old Republic.

 

[hyzmarca]

Re: Star Wars EPIII: Could the Jedi Order have defeated Palpatine/Sidi

The Jedi shouldn't have done anything. If they actually acted like the pacifists that they pretend to be, then the war would have ended, the Republic would go back it it's old decadent corrupt system, and Jar Jar would be the next Supreme Chancellor.

Sidious might never be brought to justice, but he'd also never be able to make his move. He'd retire from politics and eventually die of old age in a nursing home on Naboo. Between the two events he'd probably teach Anakin a few tricks, maybe redirect himself to recreating the Sith as a viable religion, write his autobiography, open the Palpatine Library, and maybe have a torrid love affair with Yaddle.

 

[Dude]

Re: Star Wars EPIII: Could the Jedi Order have defeated Palpatine/Sidi

If only Mace would have waited for Obi-Wan and Yoda to return to Coruscant, I think they could have had him (shit, Mace DID have him himself until Anakin screwed it up).

I think that was a trick to lull Anakin in. I think Palpatine had the upper hand the entire time and was just faking the defeat. Funny how he suddenly got powerful again when Anakin stepped in.

 

[JediKnightButler]

Re: Star Wars EPIII: Could the Jedi Order have defeated Palpatine/Sidi

If only Mace would have waited for Obi-Wan and Yoda to return to Coruscant, I think they could have had him (shit, Mace DID have him himself until Anakin screwed it up).

I think that was a trick to lull Anakin in. I think Palpatine had the upper hand the entire time and was just faking the defeat. Funny how he suddenly got powerful again when Anakin stepped in.

Good point. When I watched Episode III again I became more convinced that Palpatine was more or less feigning helplessness, presumably, to try and help turn Anakin. Yeah, I'm sure that to some degree Mace had him on the ropes but Palpatine was probably also pretty confident that Anakin would show up and end up on his side in the end, particularly with the way things looked by the time Anakin showed up. Literally AS SOON AS Anakin had *disarmed* Mace, he was able to unleash a massive barrage of lightening that KILLED Mace, which suggests to me that he could've taken Windu- he just needed the right *opening*- and Anakin gave it to him. I know a lot of people here who have problems with aspects of ROTS (and the whole PT in general) but the fact that we are still talking about this scene and debating it suggests to me that ROTS was a generally well-written movie- or at least better than the previous two movies.

 

[Sephiroth]

Re: Star Wars EPIII: Could the Jedi Order have defeated Palpatine/Sidi

Windu:thank you anakin, now wait here patiently while we "take care" of your friend and mentor

shoulda been

Windu: "thank you for telling me Anakin, i have had my suspicions, lets go talk to him and get him to confess.


Motherfucker.

 

[EnsignRicky]

Re: Star Wars EPIII: Could the Jedi Order have defeated Palpatine/Sidi

I think if they'd actually taken Anakin with them, things might have gone a bit differently. He didn't see the other three Master struck down; if he had gone, Sidious probably would've had to've acted a bit differently. Who knows what would have happened.

Quoted For Truth. That and the general consensus that bottlenecking in the doorway wasn't strategically sound either.

 

[Gojirob]

Re: Star Wars EPIII: Could the Jedi Order have defeated Palpatine/Sidi

I think if they'd actually taken Anakin with them, things might have gone a bit differently. He didn't see the other three Master struck down; if he had gone, Sidious probably would've had to've acted a bit differently. Who knows what would have happened.

Quoted For Truth. That and the general consensus that bottlenecking in the doorway wasn't strategically sound either.

Palps was invincible in that battle, but not for his Force prowess. All his gambles and strategies payed off all at once. He didn't own Mace, punch for punch. He owned him--owned all of them--on a psychological level.

SOT, I know Luke rushed off and all, but telling him about the damned lightning might have been nice.

 

[blockaderunner]

Re: Star Wars EPIII: Could the Jedi Order have defeated Palpatine/Sidi

Palps is a master gambler. He was banking that Mace, full of pride much like the Order, would rush in by himself and making Anakin stay back. If Mace were smart, he would have had Anakin tag along to take him down (Hello. Chosen One). It was Mace's Samuel L. Jackson sized ego that did him in.

 

[Ethros]

Re: Star Wars EPIII: Could the Jedi Order have defeated Palpatine/Sidi

I'm not sure why Kit Fisto became this cult favourite character, when from that scene he's about the worst fighter in the world.

C3PO could do better than he did

 

[Cky]

Re: Star Wars EPIII: Could the Jedi Order have defeated Palpatine/Sidi

Of course, episode I, II and III could have just not happened?

 

[hyzmarca]

Re: Star Wars EPIII: Could the Jedi Order have defeated Palpatine/Sidi

Or "Anakin, let us tell the Senate of our concerns and request that they appoint an independent counsel to investigate and take whatever legal actions are appropriate."

The Republic was dead as soon as the Jedi went off to fight Palpatine on their own. Even if they won, they would have only succeeded in overthrowing the government and replacing it with their own highly unstable theocratic dictatorship that probably won't have lasted a month. All anyone would know is that they murdered the Chencellor and took over the Senate. The military would, at best, be divided. Many officers would refuse to follow the Jedi's illegal government and break away, and they would take their clone toops with them. Many more worlds would have joined the Seperatists, or just quietly cut off ties to the Republic, when they figure out that the Jedi are too busy dealing with discontent in the core worlds and widespread military resistence to hold the Republic together.

There were procedures for removing a Chancellor, very quick ones. Amadalla was able to get the ol done voted out in less than five minutes. All they needed to do was gather actual evidence of malfeasence and present it to the Senate.

 

[MeanJoePhaser]

Re: Star Wars EPIII: Could the Jedi Order have defeated Palpatine/Sidi

. Literally AS SOON AS Anakin had *disarmed* Mace, he was able to unleash a massive barrage of lightening that KILLED Mace, which suggests to me that he could've taken Windu- he just needed the right *opening*- and Anakin gave it to him.

The force lightning didn't kill Mace. The fall did. No one has been shown dying from a force lightning attack in any Star Wars movie. Luke was in agony in ROTJ, but it didn't kill him outright, either because Palpatine wanted him to suffer first or because force lightning takes some time to kill a person, which maybe why in ROTS Palpatine went madass with a lightsaber when the jedi showed up instead of going Electro.

And of course, Palps needed the right opening. But without it, it was at best a stalemate...if not an eventually defeat for him, because something made Palpatine's face change. Either it was an inability to hold some disguise he'd been maintaining (which seems unlikely) or a drain of his power or the lightning reflected back on him. I doubt his disfigurement was planned. Sure he could play it up as "Jedi did this to me", but...really...looking like shit doesn't give people confidence in you.

 

[DarthPipes]

Re: Star Wars EPIII: Could the Jedi Order have defeated Palpatine/Sidi

Palps is a master gambler. He was banking that Mace, full of pride much like the Order, would rush in by himself and making Anakin stay back. If Mace were smart, he would have had Anakin tag along to take him down (Hello. Chosen One). It was Mace's Samuel L. Jackson sized ego that did him in.

Agreed. Palpatine is the type of guy who will put himself in harm's way because he is absolutely confident that he will work. In his mind, he's never wrong and he has an outstanding track record until ROTJ. Letting Mace Windu have the opportunity wasn't a risk at all for him because in his mind, he knew that Anakin would turn.

If Anakin had sided with Mace, Palpatine would have been screwed.

 

[aelius]

Re: Star Wars EPIII: Could the Jedi Order have defeated Palpatine/Sidi

I think the Jedi were screwed because they spent the last thousand years since the Sith Wars "demiliterizing" themselves. They turned themselves into a bunch a navelgazing monks instead of being the defenders of the galaxy.
I don't have a problem with them trying to arrest Palpatine, and I don't think he could claim religious persicution. With as many times as the Sith made full fledged open war on the Republic, that would be like a member of the Nazi party claiming he was being persicuted of he went to Germany and was arrested for violating their anti Nazi laws. While it has never been explicitly stated, I imagine it is actually illegal to be a Sith. No proof, but I think it would be that way based on the history of the Star Wars universe.

 

[hyzmarca]

Re: Star Wars EPIII: Could the Jedi Order have defeated Palpatine/Sidi

I think the Jedi were screwed because they spent the last thousand years since the Sith Wars "demiliterizing" themselves. They turned themselves into a bunch a navelgazing monks instead of being the defenders of the galaxy.
I don't have a problem with them trying to arrest Palpatine, and I don't think he could claim religious persicution. With as many times as the Sith made full fledged open war on the Republic, that would be like a member of the Nazi party claiming he was being persicuted of he went to Germany and was arrested for violating their anti Nazi laws. While it has never been explicitly stated, I imagine it is actually illegal to be a Sith. No proof, but I think it would be that way based on the history of the Star Wars universe.

But people arrested in Germany under anti-Nazi laws are being persecuted, and such laws most certainly violate Article 12 of the European Union's Charter of Fundamental Rights.

And if it is illegal to be a Sith, then the law of the Republic was simply wrong.

 

[aelius]

Re: Star Wars EPIII: Could the Jedi Order have defeated Palpatine/Sidi

I think the Jedi were screwed because they spent the last thousand years since the Sith Wars "demiliterizing" themselves. They turned themselves into a bunch a navelgazing monks instead of being the defenders of the galaxy.
I don't have a problem with them trying to arrest Palpatine, and I don't think he could claim religious persicution. With as many times as the Sith made full fledged open war on the Republic, that would be like a member of the Nazi party claiming he was being persicuted of he went to Germany and was arrested for violating their anti Nazi laws. While it has never been explicitly stated, I imagine it is actually illegal to be a Sith. No proof, but I think it would be that way based on the history of the Star Wars universe.

But people arrested in Germany under anti-Nazi laws are being persecuted, and such laws most certainly violate Article 12 of the European Union's Charter of Fundamental Rights.

And if it is illegal to be a Sith, then the law of the Republic was simply wrong.

Yes, it's certainly wrong to make it illegal to be part of a cult that uses powers not available to most people to commit murder and mind control for the express purpose taking what you want from the public.
The Sith as they are presented in the Star Wars universe are an evil cult. They exist solely to aquire power for themselves at any price. No matter how many people are killed in the aquisition. If this is not sufficient reason in your eyes to make such a group illegal... I really don't know how to respond to that level of "tolerance".

 

[Guy Gardener]

Re: Star Wars EPIII: Could the Jedi Order have defeated Palpatine/Sidi

neo nazi's run for office all across the planet. As long as they are neo nazis and not the same people who were doing that shit in the 40s, there shouldn't be anything more wrong with that than a gay jew vegatarian trying to grab a little power through legal methods.

Remember tht Simpsons that paradied david and Goliath? And Bart got in trouble for killing the best JKing jeudea had ever had because he was trying to retake his throne? As long as they didnt notice all the other shady stuff he was up to, no would have cared that he was Sith surely?