Star Wars Books Thread

[Reverend]

Yeah, I'm sorry to all the people that thought the Vong were a good idea (they weren't!) but the suggestion that the "real" reason Palpatine did everything he did was to save the galaxy from H.R. Higer S&M space-vampires just betrays a fundamental lack of understanding of what's at the core of the whole saga, not to mention what defines Palpatine as a character.

Could they still be adapted into canon? In another form, sure! The design and concept of interstellar nomads from beyond known space is a sound one, but all that crap about existing outside the force and being this neigh unstoppable force can just go bye-bye.

 

[Set Harth]

What you described is a common misconception that simply has no baring on reality.

No, it was reality. Canon is whatever a franchise says it is - as opposed to what random people on the internet insist. They said the EU was canon; this was communicated to the public as well as internally to the authors.

This misconception also betrays a fundamental lack of understanding as to what the word "canon" even means. It's a binary state, no a shade of grey of a sliding scale.

The seeming lack of understanding here is on your part. The canon system labeled certain things non-canon which means that other things were canon. That is a binary. The meaning of the hierarchy was that movies took precedence over books in case of a conflict. But the idea was that things not in conflict with the films were canon.

it wasn't canon. Ever.

Wrong. It was canon until it was decanonized after the Disney sale. That was the whole point of announcing its decanonization, something which would have been utterly pointless and unnecessary if it had never been canon to begin with.

 

[kirk55555]

Jyn had characterization problems?

Here's the thing I don't get, though. Doesn't your argument apply to Tarkin as well? That novel was about stuff that didn't impact his move appearances?

Well, it gave him characterization he obviously never got in the movie, and we got some stuff about the Death star, and how he became Grand Moff. That said, I think his childhood/teen years stuff was probably the weak part of the book, but the later past stuff and the story of him and Vader trying to get his ship back was very good. Actually, showing more of Vader/Tarkin's relationship is also something I'd consider important.

(Also, what if the new Jyn novel is a fun story in and of itself? Just because it doesn't impact the larger narrative doesn't mean that a book isn't worth reading. Heck, some of the best Star Wars novels I've ever read were pretty self-contained.)

Well, like I've said, if its YA then I, personally, don't consider it possible to be a good story. As for being self contained, it depends on what you mean. It was easier in the old EU because even stuff barely (or not at all) connected to the movies was still important in some aspect to either the universe in general or the other books. In a canon that has to deal with new movies coming out, getting stuff that effects much of anything is less common. But, again, YA books don't effect anything anyway, so talking about if something matters or doesn't matter is kind of pointless, since YA is always fluff.

I think you've been crossing over from opinion to judgement. The former can be whatever you want, but I think the latter needs more basis on what is than hearsay and one's preexisting notions.

Well, I'm only talking about what I think is good or bad. That needs no basis except my own experience and likes/dislikes.

Here's my problem with it all. You've said that you believe that YA books are bad. I've said that I know of exceptions. You disagree, reasoning that all YA books are bad, therefore there cannot be an exception. I say that book X is an exception because of reasons XYZ in the content. To that, you just repeat the statement that that's is wrong, since it's a YA book and all such books are bad by definition. That is not good reasoning and you're not answering my counterpoint. To provide a counterpoint, you would need to know what's in the book to show reasons why I am wrong.

I'm not trying to argue that you're wrong and I'm right. I'm not trying to change anyone's opinion. I'm not trying to counterpoint anything. I think all YA books are garbage that fit into a couple of categories but all share various tropes and cliches along with being badly written down to its demographic. I have my reasons, which is my experience with YA. I'm not trying to convince anyone that my side is right, I'm just stating my opinion on the subject.

I don't think you're irrational for not wanting to read something. I think you're irrational for saying it'll be bad without having any basis to form that opinion. (And no, not liking YA books in the past doesn't count; that has nothing to do with whether this specific book is good or bad. That is all that matters in this discussion.)

Its bad to me. Also, being a YA book is all that matter for this discussion. I hate YA, and all YA is, in my opinion, the same with slight variations. There is no YA book that won't be terrible to me.

Funny fact I remembered, a lot of the production team who worked on the Wolverine cartoon were also the guys who made the Evolution cartoon. In fact, I've heard fan theories try to fit them together as kinda-sequels, despite the very different takes on the source material and conflicts in regards to backstories and whatnot.

The shows really don't fit together. They also had a bunch of different people work on W&TXM, along with better designs, animation and writing.

What I don't get is how "YA" automatically means "Twilight" or "Hunger Games." I had seen and read books that do not fit into either.

It all has to do with the style, tropes and cliches. All YA is angsty teen garbage. They all fall into two broad categories. Angsty teen romance or more general angsty teen drama (usually still with a bit of angsty teen romance, but less of a focus). Its the core of what they are, and also the thing that makes YA terrible. Not all of what I'd call "Twilight" YA books are supernatural, or have protagonists as bad as Bella, but they share a lot of the same Teen angsty romance stuff.

So, how do we know (beyond the YA label) that Rebel Rising won't be similar?

Its YA. there is no such thing as a good YA story, or (in this context) an important YA story.

You don't have to read it if you don't want to. I don't follow every canon Star Wars material; it's too big otherwise. So, why can't it just do its thing on the side while you focus on what you like in the franchise? It's not hurting you by existing if you don't pick it up.

It hurts the franchise by taking up space. it hurts the franchise by having people ignore the good stuff and claim that garbage like Lost Stars is what is worth reading in the new canon, over the actual good books. It hurts the franchise by taking away things the real books should be covering, like telling the backstory of the Rogue One main cast. It hurts the overall quality of the new canon by producing so much garbage, and just being a huge embarrassment to the franchise in general.

The real books should be telling stories about the Rogue One cast, or about Rey/Finn/Poe's pre-TFA lives. Instead, we get a Twilight cloner writing a bad political book, a pointless Rebels tie in, leftover TCW scripts that should have been left in whatever dark hole they were stuck into being being cheaply turned into a book, and a terrible trilogy focused on the teenage adventures of the overweight x-wing pilot from TFA. To be fair, we've gotten good books like Tarkin and Lords of the Sith, and A new Dawn was fairly decent (especially for being a Rebels story). There is also stuff I still need to read, like Twilight Company, Heir to the Jedi (which has a bad reputation), and Catalyst (which I doubt I'll bother with, since its basically irrelevant to Rouge One). I also need to read Dark Disciple, but it being a leftover script from TCW, which had its best seasons in the middle of the run and completely lost every ounce of quality in its "lost episodes" season, doesn't make it something I really want to read. There is also Bloodlines, but I won't read that for obvious reasons.

If the GA books were doing better, I could (mostly) ignore the YA (except stuff like Lost Stars, that thing is too unfuriating to ignore). But, unless the GA books get to stretch their limits, and the YA stuff stops blocking the GA books from telling stories they should, the YA junk will be something I'll forced to confront every so often.

 

[Turtletrekker]

The Lucas "tiered-canon" approach to tie-in material basically meant, "canon until contradicted", which is just another way of saying "not canon". It was just a sales-pitch to people to whom which "canon" is a relevant concern and might not buy the books otherwise. Personally, as much as I enjoyed the old EU, I never, EVER, believed even for a moment that if we ever got new Star Wars movies that they would be beholden to the tie-in material. That was never going to happen, Disney or no.

 

[The Wormhole]

The EU was never canon to begin with. By and large Lucas let the licencing people do whatever they wanted (within reason) and paid very little attention to it, beyond some of the artwork it generate.

Yes, of course, my apologies for sloppy wording, but it's kind of true from a certain point of view. That is Disney put their foot down and declared the EU non-canon definitively, as opposed to the previous "maybe sort of canon if we want it to be" which is what that tiered nonsense amounted to. So, from a certain point of view the EU was de-canonised.

 

[JD]

There is a difference between something being bad, and either not enjoying it or not being interested in it. Just because you don't like something or aren't interested in it doesn't mean it's bad. There are plenty of books and movies and stuff that I'm not interested that are probably good.
Just speaking for myself, I wouldn't be as bothered by your posts if you just said you weren't interested in something and then moved on, but when you start ranting about how bad it is, and spouting off bullshit that is not true then as a fan of those things I find myself wanting to defend them.
And to be completely honest as an adult reader of YA, it has seemed at time like you are basically calling me stupid for liking it, and I really don't appreciate that.

 

[Set Harth]

The Lucas "tiered-canon" approach to tie-in material basically meant, "canon until contradicted", which is just another way of saying "not canon".

No, it's another way of saying "canon until contradicted". Otherwise we're saying a source must somehow carry with it the promise of remaining inviolate for eternity in order to be considered canon, but that's not exactly a realistic standard. Even the films have retconned prior films in the series, so by the above standard the original film was released in the condition of "not canon", which is nonsense.

as opposed to the previous "maybe sort of canon if we want it to be" which is what that tiered nonsense amounted to.

They went on record saying it was canon. Not "maybe sort of canon". The franchise position is simply being rewritten by the internet, in accordance with SOP.

 

[Ithekro]

Remember that books can be considered canon, and for most literature this is the case.

Star Wars basically had the main line of novels as canon because there was not a known plan for any sequels to Return of the Jedi. This was generally accepted as canon both by the fan base and by Lucasfilm, because they weren't doing anything with it at the time. When the PT came out, the internal consistency (such as it was) shifted a little, so the post-RotJ novels started to reflect these changes, and before the era from before A New Hope was murky at best, and the Clone Wars and anything not millennia in the past was off limits. The authors adapted and the novels continued, but the story was getting too at away from RotJ and the focus was still mostly on the Heroes of Yavin even after their kids were grown up.

Then Disney buys them out and decides to make sequels. At that point, the post-RotJ EU novels had getting around 45 years after A New Hope and were getting odd. The sequels would likely need to use the actors at their present ages, and their was no real story at their ages that was any good/or didn't need a lot a background material knowledge to understand what is going on anymore. Thus the de-canonization of the EU. Because there was too much for them to make a good movie in the time period needed due to the actor's ages. Where their good stories in there, sure. Lots of them. But the majority of them are set in a time period when Carrier Fisher should have been in her late twenties or thirties. A time long past by 2014.

 

[Tosk]

I'm glad...how tedious it would be if all they did was straight-adapt existing stories for the new movies.

 

[WebLurker]

Well, it gave him characterization he obviously never got in the movie, and we got some stuff about the Death star, and how he became Grand Moff. That said, I think his childhood/teen years stuff was probably the weak part of the book, but the later past stuff and the story of him and Vader trying to get his ship back was very good. Actually, showing more of Vader/Tarkin's relationship is also something I'd consider important.

I actually thought that the ship part was pretty rote. I found contrasting the person he'd been with the person he was was more interesting.

And who's to say that Jyn won't get more characterization in her novel? It's centered around a part of her life we don't know much about. It would seem to cover events in her life that the movie said was important. It will give more context to her scenes in the movie. That's pretty much the same kind of stuff we'd have gotten had this story been told by Del Rey.

Well, like I've said, if its YA then I, personally, don't consider it possible to be a good story. As for being self contained, it depends on what you mean. It was easier in the old EU because even stuff barely (or not at all) connected to the movies was still important in some aspect to either the universe in general or the other books. In a canon that has to deal with new movies coming out, getting stuff that effects much of anything is less common.

One could argue that the movies are working in tandem with the tie-ins to expand the universe, whereas before, it was just the tie-ins working alone. It may be that the books no longer work for telling the galaxy-changing stuff. (Bear in mind that "big stuff" in Legends, like New Jedi Order were written when it was thought tie-ins were the only future of the franchise.)

But, again, YA books don't effect anything anyway, so talking about if something matters or doesn't matter is kind of pointless, since YA is always fluff.

What do you mean by "fluff," anyways? Is there anything beyond "it doesn't advances the main story" that would render something "fluff?"

Well, I'm only talking about what I think is good or bad. That needs no basis except my own experience and likes/dislikes.

Hmmm.

I'm not trying to argue that you're wrong and I'm right. I'm not trying to change anyone's opinion. I'm not trying to counterpoint anything. I think all YA books are garbage that fit into a couple of categories but all share various tropes and cliches along with being badly written down to its demographic. I have my reasons, which is my experience with YA. I'm not trying to convince anyone that my side is right, I'm just stating my opinion on the subject.

From what I've read, opinion is mixed with binary statements.

Its bad to me. Also, being a YA book is all that matter for this discussion. I hate YA, and all YA is, in my opinion, the same with slight variations. There is no YA book that won't be terrible to me.

Some of the books and movies that I've enjoyed the most were stuff that I wanted nothing to do with at first.

The shows really don't fit together.

Agreed, I'm just aware of that wacky theory.

They also had a bunch of different people work on W&TXM, along with better designs, animation and writing.

Maybe? I thought that animation and design where pretty comparable. As for writing, one show was about the origins and genesis of the X-Men and the other was about them re-forming to stop something. Those are different focuses. (I did find that Evolution had the better Cyclops, going off my memories.)

It all has to do with the style, tropes and cliches. All YA is angsty teen garbage. They all fall into two broad categories. Angsty teen romance or more general angsty teen drama (usually still with a bit of angsty teen romance, but less of a focus). Its the core of what they are, and also the thing that makes YA terrible. Not all of what I'd call "Twilight" YA books are supernatural, or have protagonists as bad as Bella, but they share a lot of the same Teen angsty romance stuff.

I've seen exceptions.

Its YA. there is no such thing as a good YA story...

For the record, what would a YA story need to do to be "good?"

...or (in this context) an important YA story.

Well, Lost Stars was a stand-alone story (a "below decks" thing). Ahsoka was arguably important, at least in the context of the TV shows. It also had a lot of tidbits and details of Star Wars lore.

It hurts the franchise by taking up space.

That's kind of an occupational hazard of a big franchise.

...it hurts the franchise by having people ignore the good stuff and claim that garbage like Lost Stars is what is worth reading in the new canon, over the actual good books.

It's a bit Darwinian, but the stuff people like usually beats out the stuff that doesn't. Besides, a lot of people, like me, do read both.

It hurts the franchise by taking away things the real books should be covering, like telling the backstory of the Rogue One main cast.

It hurts the overall quality of the new canon by producing so much garbage, and just being a huge embarrassment to the franchise in general.

From what I've read, the YA and younger (like middle school-ish stuff) are actually in extremely good shape.

The real books should be telling stories about the Rogue One cast...

Maybe Del Rey has other plans. They can make only so many books a year.

...or about Rey/Finn/Poe's pre-TFA lives.

Poe is getting most of his pre-TFA adventures in comics.

Rey and Finn's lives are pretty much blank slates, except for the two short stories in the Before the Awakening book. Rey also did get that Survival Guide (which was ostensibly written by her), however, that was a bit short for a Del Rey novel and not in a novel format. It also focused more on how she saw Jakku, with very few bio details. So, in the case of these two characters, there's still plenty of time for them to get more novels, but I think their backstories are being saved for the movies.

Instead, we get a Twilight cloner writing a bad political book, a pointless Rebels tie in, leftover TCW scripts that should have been left in whatever dark hole they were stuck into being being cheaply turned into a book, and a terrible trilogy focused on the teenage adventures of the overweight x-wing pilot from TFA. To be fair, we've gotten good books like Tarkin and Lords of the Sith, and A new Dawn was fairly decent (especially for being a Rebels story). There is also stuff I still need to read, like Twilight Company, Heir to the Jedi (which has a bad reputation), and Catalyst (which I doubt I'll bother with, since its basically irrelevant to Rouge One). I also need to read Dark Disciple, but it being a leftover script from TCW, which had its best seasons in the middle of the run and completely lost every ounce of quality in its "lost episodes" season, doesn't make it something I really want to read. There is also Bloodlines, but I won't read that for obvious reasons.

Suit yourself.

If the GA books were doing better, I could (mostly) ignore the YA (except stuff like Lost Stars, that thing is too unfuriating to ignore).

I liked it a lot and found it better than quite a few of the "GA" stuff. I don't have anything to apologize for. If you want to ignore it, it's probably one of the easiest ones to ignore, since it's about two new characters seeing the events of the movies. It's probably the least offensive of all the YA stuff by your standards, since I doubt the story would've been used for a GA book. If you're aggravated that it even exists, I don't know what to tell you.

But, unless the GA books get to stretch their limits...

I think that's up to Del Rey, not Disney Press and the people making the "YA" stuff.

...and the YA stuff stops blocking the GA books from telling stories they should, the YA junk will be something I'll forced to confront every so often.

In actuality, most of the YA stuff are side stories. The few that impact the larger universe generally tie-into the movies, but are generally "small" enough that other content could be added. The Jyn novel does seem to be some kind of an exception, but since Rogue One was a one-shot movie, it probably doesn't have the room for lots and lots of tie-ins, like the others.

Here's the question: if Disney Press hadn't decided to do Rebel Rising, would Del Rey have done that story?

 

[kirk55555]

And who's to say that Jyn won't get more characterization in her novel? It's centered around a part of her life we don't know much about. It would seem to cover events in her life that the movie said was important. It will give more context to her scenes in the movie. That's pretty much the same kind of stuff we'd have gotten had this story been told by Del Rey.

YA doesn't do real characterization. Jyn in the YA book will just be some variation of one of the standard YA protagonists.

What do you mean by "fluff," anyways? Is there anything beyond "it doesn't advances the main story" that would render something "fluff?"

A story that is completely not worth telling. To use an extreme example, a story about Poe choosing the color of his X-Wing would be fluff. Even the YA SW books don't seem to have become that extreme fluff, but that's the kind of story I mean.

Some of the books and movies that I've enjoyed the most were stuff that I wanted nothing to do with at first.

That's not something I've ever encountered, personally.

I've seen exceptions.

You've seen YA books you would consider exceptions, but I wouldn't.

For the record, what would a YA story need to do to be "good?"

Not be a YA story. There is no such thing as a YA story I don't consider terrible. There is no way, in my opinion, for there to be a good YA book. It just doesn't exist. Just being YA means it has the terrible style, cliches and tropes of YA. You can't make a diamond out of manure.

Well, Lost Stars was a stand-alone story (a "below decks" thing). Ahsoka was arguably important, at least in the context of the TV shows. It also had a lot of tidbits and details of Star Wars lore.

Eh, as far as I'm concerned Ahsoka after TCW is a terrible character, so really the only thing important past TCW is when her stupidity lead to her death in rebels. even then, as a fan of Ahsoka I like to just pretend she disappeared after her last TCW appearance and was neer seen again. better that then becoming an incompetent idiot and dying as one.

I liked it a lot and found it better than quite a few of the "GA" stuff. I don't have anything to apologize for. If you want to ignore it, it's probably one of the easiest ones to ignore, since it's about two new characters seeing the events of the movies. It's probably the least offensive of all the YA stuff by your standards, since I doubt the story would've been used for a GA book. If you're aggravated that it even exists, I don't know what to tell you.

To me its the most offensive, because they actually had a Twilight cloner make an angsty teen romance novel as an official SW product. Its a complete embarrassment, and easily the worst official SW product released since the reboot, and that's counting Rebels. YA romance is YA at its worst, at least I can somewhat understand why Hunger Games style stuff exists. There is nothing worse then a YA romance book, and the fact that the SW franchise has one is outright shameful. Its a book that pisses me off every time I see it mentioned, and leaves me angry for a good while after I'm done talking/reading about it.

Here's the question: if Disney Press hadn't decided to do Rebel Rising, would Del Rey have done that story?

I don't know. But, if the GA books weren't going to do it, it shouldn't have been done. If Jyn gets backstory, it should be in either a GA book or comic.

There is a difference between something being bad, and either not enjoying it or not being interested in it. Just because you don't like something or aren't interested in it doesn't mean it's bad. There are plenty of books and movies and stuff that I'm not interested that are probably good.
Just speaking for myself, I wouldn't be as bothered by your posts if you just said you weren't interested in something and then moved on, but when you start ranting about how bad it is, and spouting off bullshit that is not true then as a fan of those things I find myself wanting to defend them.
And to be completely honest as an adult reader of YA, it has seemed at time like you are basically calling me stupid for liking it, and I really don't appreciate that.

II don't mean to call people stupid for liking YA, and if it comes across that way I honestly apologize. I personally watch a lot of stuff people hate and/or find stupid (I still watch Power Rangers, for example).

I don't believe there is a need to separate "bad" into some kind of objective term. its not. Something that's garbage to me might be great to you, and that's fine. I legitimately find YA books to be some of the most horrendous junk made today, to the point where, in the context of a franchise like SW, it makes me angry. I'm not going to stop calling it bad because I honestly believe it is horrible.
Its not meant as a judgement of people who read it.
Its not like its a specific YA franchise I can ignore. Since its SW, I can't move on from it because it exists and won't go away.

 

[Reverend]

Yes, of course, my apologies for sloppy wording, but it's kind of true from a certain point of view. That is Disney put their foot down and declared the EU non-canon definitively, as opposed to the previous "maybe sort of canon if we want it to be" which is what that tiered nonsense amounted to. So, from a certain point of view the EU was de-canonised.

I'm not convinced it was even a Disney decision. Indeed I don't think they care in the slightest either way. This is the kind of thing that would have probably come from Lucasfilm and let's be realistic, was inevitable once Episode VII was announced.
I mean do people seriously think that if Lucas hadn't sold up and made the third trilogy himself that he'd write his movies around the EU, or adapt 'Heir to the Empire'? Hell no. Not in a million years.

As I said, none of that material was considered canon by the movie production side of the company. Not when the prequels were being made, not in the 80's & 90's when nothing much of anything was being produced and not when The Clone Wars was airing.

All that's really changed is that they've said "OK, from this point on, the new stuff *will* be canon and we're going to try and make it all work together."
Personally I don't see why people get so upset over this notion. My copy of 'Tales of the Jedi' isn't going anywhere. It didn't spontaneously combust and it not like felt invested in it out of some delusion that it somehow "mattered" in relation the the movies. It's a story, reasonably well told. Is that not enough?

 

[Jedman67]

The Lucas "tiered-canon" approach to tie-in material basically meant, "canon until contradicted", which is just another way of saying "not canon". It was just a sales-pitch to people to whom which "canon" is a relevant concern and might not buy the books otherwise. Personally, as much as I enjoyed the old EU, I never, EVER, believed even for a moment that if we ever got new Star Wars movies that they would be beholden to the tie-in material. That was never going to happen, Disney or no.

Remember that books can be considered canon, and for most literature this is the case.

Plans for a sequel trilogy were floating around for a long time, it wasn't until Disney bought it out that it become a reality.
The policy from LucasArts, which I think was responsible for licensing the novels and games was that the EU was canon - the events in the novels *did* "happen" and they made the other authors and licensees stick somewhat loosely to what was already done. It was also always the policy that future movies would always take precedence in canon. I hear why you're insisting that "secondary" means that its not canon at all. Logically @Reverend is correct; but from a licensing standpoint LA wanted to call the EU canon.

 

[Reverend]

^Uh, LucasArts was their video game development studio. They've never had any say in corporate licencing policy. Quite the opposite in fact since they're as subject to it any anyone else producing content.

Yet again I feel I must explain the definition of "canon". It means that events depicted *happened* and must be taken into account by *everyone*. Not "everyone who isn't George Lucas", everyone including George Lucas. The only things that fit that definition were the six movies and TCW. That's it. Nothing else.

What the EU had was an internal system of continuity to decide what gets retconed when there's a contradiction. Note that under no circumstances would the movies or TCW get retconed, because they're set in stone. Canon. Sure, EU sources referenced each other all the time, but it was far from a cohesive framework and they contradicted each other just as often as not.

 

[The Wormhole]

Personally I don't see why people get so upset over this notion. My copy of 'Tales of the Jedi' isn't going anywhere. It didn't spontaneously combust and it not like felt invested in it out of some delusion that it somehow "mattered" in relation the the movies. It's a story, reasonably well told. Is that not enough?

But, but, after Abrams rebooted Star Trek all my TOS DVDs disappeared.

 

[kirk55555]

That's always been a statement I've found ridiculous. Sure, my books aren't going to disappear, but I'm certainly not getting any new books with, say, Jaina Solo, am I? Of course you'll always have your old books, but its the lack of anything new with the characters and version of the universe you like that's the problem.

 

[WebLurker]

YA doesn't do real characterization. Jyn in the YA book will just be some variation of one of the standard YA protagonists.

Well, I'm getting a copy of the book when it comes out; it focuses on my favorite character from the movie. It's a story I wanted told in some kind of medium; when I first heard that there was going to be a Rogue One prequel novel, I was hoping it was going to be something like this (although getting both this and the Catalyst novel is kind of a best of both worlds thing for me). Those are all things that factor into the Star Wars books and stuff I read or get. When it comes, I can give an opinion if the author got Jyn right or not, if you're still hanging around here. Until then, I'm not sure what else there is to speculate about on it.

A story that is completely not worth telling. To use an extreme example, a story about Poe choosing the color of his X-Wing would be fluff. Even the YA SW books don't seem to have become that extreme fluff, but that's the kind of story I mean.

Okay. I guess that means that fluff is in the eye of the beholder, to some extent.

That's not something I've ever encountered, personally.

You've seen YA books you would consider exceptions, but I wouldn't.

Maybe if you gave some a shot, you'd find exceptions, too? Obviously, you need to do what works for you, but the only reason I ever find any books I like is by trying stuff I've never read before. (From my experience, YA stuff thats written with junior high as the target demographic seems less likely to fall into the "Twilight trap," for some reason.)

Not be a YA story. There is no such thing as a YA story I don't consider terrible. There is no way, in my opinion, for there to be a good YA book. It just doesn't exist. Just being YA means it has the terrible style, cliches and tropes of YA. You can't make a diamond out of manure.

All the stuff you're describing is stuff in the author's control. In theory, one could write something that doesn't use those tropes. So, I wonder if the problem is more that authors who tend to Twilight-lite stuff and other cliches often pick YA as their main market than YA being inherently about that kind of stuff.

Eh, as far as I'm concerned Ahsoka after TCW is a terrible character, so really the only thing important past TCW is when her stupidity lead to her death in rebels. even then, as a fan of Ahsoka I like to just pretend she disappeared after her last TCW appearance and was neer seen again. better that then becoming an incompetent idiot and dying as one.

Okay, but the book does bridge the gap for fans who want to follow the TV show and/or like the character's development in them. In that context, I'd argue that Ahsoka is "important" to that piece of the franchise (like how some books are important to the movies). Whether it's "good" or not is subjective (Jedi Academy Trilogy was important to the Legends line, but I didn't like it very much).

To me its the most offensive, because they actually had a Twilight cloner make an angsty teen romance novel as an official SW product. Its a complete embarrassment, and easily the worst official SW product released since the reboot, and that's counting Rebels.

I don't think you can say "worst" if you've never read it, although I think it's fair to say that you're not interested in the book based on the topic and premise.

YA romance is YA at its worst, at least I can somewhat understand why Hunger Games style stuff exists.

How was Hunger Games that different? I read the first book of that and, although I've never read or seen Twilight stuff, I understand that Hunger Games had a kind of heavy-handed love story/love triangle, too. (I will concede that Katniss was an interesting lead -- give the author credit that she wasn't always very nice or likable -- which is nothing I've heard about any of the Twilight characters.)

There is nothing worse then a YA romance book, and the fact that the SW franchise has one is outright shameful.

Since Star Wars has done zombie fiction, I think they've already done the most shameful stuff possible. I don't know, pushing the franchise to filter other genres through the Star Wars lens seems like a decent idea on paper.

Its a book that pisses me off every time I see it mentioned, and leaves me angry for a good while after I'm done talking/reading about it.

Good thing that it's not an essential read to understand the rest of canon, then. However, if it makes you that mad, I think you're taking it way too seriously. It's just a book that many people like and others don't. It's purely a side story that can be skipped if so desired. It's not worth the effort. (I mean, I hate what Marvel and Dan Slott have done to Spider-Man with "One More Day" and the subsequent comics, but it's not worth it for me to get so riled up about it. They're just stories that are there for those who like them and only one piece of the franchise, which has other stuff I like.)

I don't know. But, if the GA books weren't going to do it, it shouldn't have been done.

That seems pretty harsh, esp. for those of us who wanted it told in some shape or form.

If Jyn gets backstory, it should be in either a GA book or comic.

I'd like that with the YA book, not instead of, personally.

Personally I don't see why people get so upset over this notion. My copy of 'Tales of the Jedi' isn't going anywhere. It didn't spontaneously combust and it not like felt invested in it out of some delusion that it somehow "mattered" in relation the the movies. It's a story, reasonably well told. Is that not enough?

Beyond the "no more new stories in that series thing," I think there's also the shift of perception from "those were the 'real' thing," to "this is not the 'real' thing, maybe even contradicting the real thing." It may sound silly, but I think the idea that the tie-ins were part of the official story and not just "what ifs?" was part of the reason that it got such a fanbase that other franchise did not. So, when that ends, it's quite a hard shift. Even thought I was more or less onboard with the idea (esp. when they started making good stuff), it was still an adjustment.

 

[Reverend]

But, but, after Abrams rebooted Star Trek all my TOS DVDs disappeared.

As if the concept of canon was ever a thing that really mattered in Star Trek.

Beyond the "no more new stories in that series thing," I think there's also the shift of perception from "those were the 'real' thing," to "this is not the 'real' thing, maybe even contradicting the real thing." It may sound silly, but I think the idea that the tie-ins were part of the official story and not just "what ifs?" was part of the reason that it got such a fanbase that other franchise did not. So, when that ends, it's quite a hard shift. Even thought I was more or less onboard with the idea (esp. when they started making good stuff), it was still an adjustment.

Disappointment based on self delusional is a difficult thing for me to sympathise with. LF was always upfront about the movies being the primary source from which all others derived and that anything else could be contradicted.

I might feel a *little* sympathy if it was anything approaching a cohesive narrative, but almost right out of the gate the authors trod all over each other, barely paying attention to each other and occasionally intentionally sabotaging another's character to push their own ideas. The shift from the Thrawn trology, to Dark Empire and then to the Jedi Academy books was particularly haphazard and jarring.
Some of the early Bantam stuff (looking at you CoPL!) even read like it'd been written by someone who'd only heard of Star Wars from a friend and never actually saw the movies.

It wasn't until around the prequels started dropping that they sort of started to get their shit together, but typically the best work was being done off the the side away from the movie characters. There's a reason why when people cite the best of the EU the likes of KotOR, Rogue/Wraith Squadron, TotJ and the 'Republic' comics rises to the top. Post-Thrawn, the vast majority of the Luke/Leia/Han books were either trite and dull or mindbogglingly stupid.

Also, given the state things were in when the plug was pulled (Daala as Republic President? Jedi being hunted for going mad? Han Solo torture porn?) It felt more like a mercy killing. I mean could anyone really be that disappointed we never got to find out what the deal was with Abeloth? Blech!

 

[WebLurker]

As if the concept of canon was ever a thing that really mattered in Star Trek.

To some of us it does.

Disappointment based on self delusional is a difficult thing for me to sympathise with. LF was always upfront about the movies being the primary source from which all others derived and that anything else could be contradicted.

Many of the official reference materials did confirm canonicity, so it wasn't like it was a fan theory that got out of hand.

I might feel a *little* sympathy if it was anything approaching a cohesive narrative, but almost right out of the gate the authors trod all over each other, barely paying attention to each other and occasionally intentionally sabotaging another's character to push their own ideas. The shift from the Thrawn trology, to Dark Empire and then to the Jedi Academy books was particularly haphazard and jarring.
Some of the early Bantam stuff (looking at you CoPL!) even read like it'd been written by someone who'd only heard of Star Wars from a friend and never actually saw the movies.

It wasn't until around the prequels started dropping that they sort of started to get their shit together, but typically the best work was being done off the the side away from the movie characters. There's a reason why when people cite the best of the EU the likes of KotOR, Rogue/Wraith Squadron, TotJ and the 'Republic' comics rises to the top. Post-Thrawn, the vast majority of the Luke/Leia/Han books were either trite and dull or mindbogglingly stupid.

I've found that each era had its problems and good stuff. I've also found that the worse of the Bantam novel to be more entertaining than the worse of the Del Rey stuff.

Also, given the state things were in when the plug was pulled (Daala as Republic President? Jedi being hunted for going mad? Han Solo torture porn?) It felt more like a mercy killing. I mean could anyone really be that disappointed we never got to find out what the deal was with Abeloth? Blech!

In all honesty, I detested the post-NJO stuff, so I agree in principle (esp. since I've found the Disney era to be doing really good story-telling). However, it was a pretty sudden shift of gears.

 

[kirk55555]

Well, I'm getting a copy of the book when it comes out; it focuses on my favorite character from the movie. It's a story I wanted told in some kind of medium; when I first heard that there was going to be a Rogue One prequel novel, I was hoping it was going to be something like this (although getting both this and the Catalyst novel is kind of a best of both worlds thing for me). Those are all things that factor into the Star Wars books and stuff I read or get. When it comes, I can give an opinion if the author got Jyn right or not, if you're still hanging around here. Until then, I'm not sure what else there is to speculate about on it.

I legitimately hope you like it, but for me its lack of quality and its fluff status is predetermined.

Maybe if you gave some a shot, you'd find exceptions, too? Obviously, you need to do what works for you, but the only reason I ever find any books I like is by trying stuff I've never read before. (From my experience, YA stuff thats written with junior high as the target demographic seems less likely to fall into the "Twilight trap," for some reason.)

Trying to read one of those is pointless. I already know exactly what YA books are. I once read about 50 pages of Twilight years ago just to see if it was as bad as they say, and it was somehow worse. YA is YA, and I hate it. There are no exceptions for me.

All the stuff you're describing is stuff in the author's control. In theory, one could write something that doesn't use those tropes. So, I wonder if the problem is more that authors who tend to Twilight-lite stuff and other cliches often pick YA as their main market than YA being inherently about that kind of stuff.

Its not in the author's control if its a YA book. If its YA, it has that stuff, because that's what makes it YA. If it didn't have that stuff, it wouldn't be YA.

Okay, but the book does bridge the gap for fans who want to follow the TV show and/or like the character's development in them. In that context, I'd argue that Ahsoka is "important" to that piece of the franchise (like how some books are important to the movies). Whether it's "good" or not is subjective (Jedi Academy Trilogy was important to the Legends line, but I didn't like it very much).

Ok, I'll give you that. I guess I just don't count anything after TCW important to Ahsoka, since I don't really consider the rebels Ahsoka to really be the same character (they're basically two different characters that share a name and species), but that is super subjective.

I don't think you can say "worst" if you've never read it, although I think it's fair to say that you're not interested in the book based on the topic and premise.

I think I can declare something the worst just based on what it is. I can't say, for example, that Lost stars is the worst YA book. But, I can say its the worst SW book, in my opinion.

How was Hunger Games that different? I read the first book of that and, although I've never read or seen Twilight stuff, I understand that Hunger Games had a kind of heavy-handed love story/love triangle, too. (I will concede that Katniss was an interesting lead -- give the author credit that she wasn't always very nice or likable -- which is nothing I've heard about any of the Twilight characters.)

All yA has angsty romance, but I seperate hunger Games (which I haven't read or watched, to be fair) by being more about the main character and the challenges she faces, while Twilight is more about an idiot trying to get together with someone else as the main focus of the story. So, its basically whether romance is the point of the story, or one element of the story (large or small). That's how I think about it. They both suck, but in different ways.

Since Star Wars has done zombie fiction, I think they've already done the most shameful stuff possible. I don't know, pushing the franchise to filter other genres through the Star Wars lens seems like a decent idea on paper.

What's wrong with zombie fiction? I haven't read the zombie books yet, but if they can give even a slightly acceptable explanation for it, I think its fine, at least for a few stories.

Good thing that it's not an essential read to understand the rest of canon, then. However, if it makes you that mad, I think you're taking it way too seriously. It's just a book that many people like and others don't. It's purely a side story that can be skipped if so desired. It's not worth the effort.

Maybe I'd ignore it if people didn't keep tring to say it was the "best" book of the new canon, or even of "Journey to the Force Awakens". I consider that insulting to basically every GA new canon book, so that combined with my personally feeling that making an angsty teen romance in the SW universe is shameful are why I can't ignore it. If it had gotten the reception it deserves, being ignored by anyone not obsessed with stuff like Twilight, I'd probably have forgotten about it. But instead it gets put on a pedestal when it doesn't even deserve to be a licensed product.

That seems pretty harsh, esp. for those of us who wanted it told in some shape or form.

I think that if you're not willing to tell the story how it should be told, you shouldn't tell the story.

I'd like that with the YA book, not instead of, personally.

That legitimately confuses me, (even if you like YA, why would you prefer to see Jyn's backstory in that format over the other choices?) but that's fine. Its just a difference of opinion. Personally, like I've said, I'd rather she get no backstory if its a choice between none and YA, although she's not really getting a "backstory", they're writing a fluff piece set in her childhood/teen years.