See this is the problem, you can't judge an entire category of books on 50 pages of one book that is pretty divisive. It would be like judging every single science fiction TV series based on Spock's Brain or Code of Honor.
Star Wars Books Thread
- Thread starter Mr Light
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But that doesn't change the fact that we are talking about thousands of books here by hundreds or thousands of individual writers. Just because you haven't liked what YA books you've tried doesn't mean that's there aren't ones that you might like out there.
If Twilight is as bad as it gets, then that must mean there is stuff out there that is better.
If Twilight is as bad as it gets, then that must mean there is stuff out there that is better.
Meh. Aside from the odd very rare crossover, the larger continuity barely mattered. Barely at all between productions and not all that much within a their owns shows, thanks mostly to the episodic format. DS9 is the exception as it slanted more towards the serialised format as the show went on.
Other than that, did anyone seriously mind whether or not the Animated show was in continuity or not? Or any of the dozen of novels? Or the RPGs? Video games? I can only speak for myself but my enjoyment of Interplay's 'Starfleet Academy' or 'Voyager: Elite Force' was not contingent on whether or not the movie or TV people considered them canon and those were the ones that involved actual cast members!
There may have been some wishy-washy language like "secondary canon" and frankly, if someone can't spot an oxymoron that's their own lookout. As I'vs said, so far I I can tell they always maintained that George's Star Wars (whichever iteration he was on at the time anyway!) was always the immovable point. Everything else was just spin-off material. So yeah, it sort of is a fan perpetuated fallacy.
I don't dispute that there was was some really good material that came out of the EU, but as time went on it seemed as though the gems to dross ratio was skewed heavily towards the dross. At a certain point it's just not worth the effort trying to find the former amidst the latter.
Was it though? At least as far as the novels were concerned it felt like it had been winding down for years at that point, with the novel series just stumbling in vague circles with no end in sight. It felt like a TV show in it's 14th season that should have been cancelled in it's 6th, but keeps getting renewed because it just barely makes a reliable profit, despite the cast and crew having long since lost all interest and zeal for the property, much less a cohesive narrative.
You know what one of the defining characteristics was of Lucas's original movies? They were a trilogy with a definitive beginning, middle and end. The novels were mostly just an ever persistent middle with no pay-off. They should have retired the OT characters to supporting roles YEARS ago and brought the younger characters more to the forefront to stand on their own, with their own beginning, middle and yes, end.
As for the non-novel stuff: LucasArts hadn't put out a good, let alone successful game since the days of KoTOR & Republic Commandos. I can't reallt say much about the comics since I never really got into Legacy and have no idea how well it did and the DotJ series just didn't do it for me at all. Admittedly 'The Star Wars' was a fun concept and I would have liked ot see more in that vein, but in the end it was too little too late IMO.
Really at that time it felt like the Clone Wars show was the only real game in town.
Okay and thank you.
I was kind of thinking out loud. It's obviously up to you how you approach stuff, even if your reasoning doesn't exactly make that much sense to me.
That really doesn't make sense to me.
Okay. (Do you mean different characters literally or figuratively? The TV show has tied the two together as the same characters, irrespective of whether one likes the progression and storytelling.)
Huh.
So romance in fiction doesn't work, or just in YA?
They give an explanation that works for the Star Wars world, but I didn't find the books to be very well written or that engaging. I don't like zombie stories from the get go, so you're mileage may vary.
Art is subjective by nature. Different people see different stuff in the same thing.
I can't help you with that, but I think you're taking it way too seriously.
I think book reception and the like is kind of Darwinian. If other GA books didn't do as well or get the same praise from fans and readers, it's their fault that they weren't was well done. It's not Claudia Grey's fault, all that she's responsible is for the good and bad in her books.
Also, I'm not sure about it not deserving to be made. It's a book that's not in your wheelhouse, but others like it. It comes across as kind of selfish to wish that other's couldn't have it just because it doesn't fit what you think Star Wars is. IDIC seems to be the best way to go; it gives more choices to more people.
To explain: Between getting a YA or a GA book/comic, I'd rather have both, so that we'd get two books about the characters instead of one (assuming the stories were different). So, not so much about preferring one format, but wanting more books, and thus more stories, about the character.
It's backstory as the dictionary describes it. Whether it's a good backstory I'll only be able to say when it comes out.
All I can say is that the stuff that defines YA is the stuff I hate. Without that stuff, its not YA.
Figuratively. Its obviously supposed to be one character, but I think the similarities between what I consider the good character and the idiot on Rebels are so few they're basically different characters. But, from a technical standpoint its supposed to be the same Ahsoka from TCW, even if I think that Rebels used her so badly she's pretty much incompatible with the original portrayal of the character.
I'll admit to being biased against romance, but its not good or bad as a concept. As the focal point of the story I think its terrible, but as an element of a story it can work, it just depends on the writer. The old EU had many good rmances, like Han/Leia and Luke/Mara. So, while I don't read stories specifically about romance even in GA stuff, as a concept whether its good or not depends on a case by case basis.
Yeah, I get that. As long as the explanation is good enough, I think a zombie story can work in SW. That doesn't mean it will necessarily be good, but I think it can fit in the universe.
Well, I don't think that's quite accurate. Not everything deserving of praise gets recognized, and bad/poorly made things sometimes get a lot of attention/make money.
What name did the movie production side of the company decide to use for the capital of the Republic again?
Reverend said:
By that definition, ANH wasn't canon, because someone named George Lucas sure didn't take into account the whole "Vader murdered your father" thing.
Reverend said:
That's ironic, given that you're the one revising history in a seemingly delusional fashion.
Reverend said:
No, it's a reality that you find inconvenient for some reason. The "fan perpetuated fallacy" here is "the EU was never canon".
Reverend said:
Could be contradicted is not the same thing as contradicted.
It's "Yoda and the prophecy" all over again...
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Not to jump in the middle here, but that whole "death trooper" thing was just too weird for me in the Star Wars universe. Don't ask me why the line is drawn there for me but it is.
I personally will take a book set for most demographics, because different information makes it through each iteration. This started with the TPM with the different books that came out, between the Journal books (Anakin, Padme and Maul), the junior novel and the full novel, I felt like I had a really well rounded information about these new characters and new planets.
So, I'm with you. I'd rather have both and will enjoy Jyn's YA book as much as the RO novel.
Yay pages of people arguing to them selves because I have that user blocked
I could be wrong, but they had already started on very early EP7 work and the idea of wiping the EU before the Disney announcement.
You are correct, it wasn't Disney, it was LucasFilm. Disney doesn't make story decisions, according to Pablo Hidalgo
I could be wrong, but they had already started on very early EP7 work and the idea of wiping the EU before the Disney announcement.
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The comics had their own issues at times, but by the latter stages of the pre-Disney era, from a creative standpoint the comics were generally much stronger than the novels were.
So, could one write a book with a target demographic for teens or lower that would not be "YA?"
I thought they were compatible (IMHO and your mileage may vary, of course), but okay.
Okay, I see.
Yeah, it made sense. The two novels are only connected by the zombie outbreaks, so it probably doesn't matter which you read first, but I think I would start with Death Troopers (the OT-era one), and then do Red Harvest (the Old Republic one). The former is the stronger story and I think the latter is more interesting if you're already sold on the idea of Star Wars zombies.
There are exceptions, of course.
Something I've been trying to remember to bring up. As part of the marketing for TFA, they released a bunch of short stories as ebooks (stuff like High Noon on Jakku, The Treasure of Count Dooku, etc.). These were eventually published in a hardcover anthology, but the book was printed by LucasFilm books, not Del Rey. This means that there is a Star Wars YA book that is entirely GA content (and might suggest that the Powers That Be may consider the differences between their GA and YA materials to be more fluid than your or I would.)
Bad news, but the zombie stormtroopers did carry over into canon. Krennic's personal squad were called "death troopers" in Rogue One. The Ultimate Visual Guide states that they were named in honor of an Imperial experiment (Project Blackwing) to reanimate dead flesh (probably a meta nod to the Death Trooper novel, where that project was first invented for.) However, the Star Wars Commander app game did establish that the canonically, Project Blackwing was a "success" in (re?)creating the Sickness (in pretty much the same way it did in Legends), and that it created legions of Undead Stormtroopers which caused havoc.
So, canonically zombie stormtroopers did exist at some time during the OT era, but, so far, they've only appeared in that game, so I doubt we'll be seeing them elsewhere for the moment.
You mean the R1 novelization or the Catalyst prequel?
There was the time when Korriban was re-named Moraband. Quinlan Vos was created for the comics, but was given a different characterization in the TV show. The Mandalorians were overhauled for the TV shows as well. The dating of the Clone Wars changed to, despite Timothy Zahn already using the old dates in his books. Coruscant's name may have come from a book, but the city-covering planet (and pronunciation of the name, for that matter) were the movie's own and didn't match the book's.
The movies and TV show often did borrow stuff, but they were never afraid to put their own stamp on it even if it meant contradictions.
In that case, they chose to reconcile the discrepancy rather than ignore it all together.
I agree with you about Legends being canon in it's day, but in practice, Legend's canonicity was very much "in name only."
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Weblurker brings up an interesting point. Kirk, when you talk about YA are you talking about every single book published with a main target audience between 12-18, or just books specifically done in the style of either Twilight or The Hunger Games? The latter is just a small subset of the former, and not liking just that group of books isn't quite as bad as writing off every single book written for people 12 and 18 years old.
Yes. harry Potter is a good example. even the old Young Jedi Knights books. But, those aren't really YA.
With those titles and publisher, those stories were never GA content. Being an ebook doesn't make something GA, and those are just YA ebooks that got collected in a YA book. Wookiepedia agrees that all those stories were made for kids 8 to 12, so definitely not GA material. They might be kids material, like Before the Awakening. That makes them different then junk like Lost Stars, although looking at them on wikipedia they look like really simple stories told for elementary school kids. So, really, not comparable to GA or even really YA books, although the lack of teen angst/romance makes them superior, but not really something you'd read if you're over the age limit.
Well, generally any book that labels itself YA. There are exceptions, I think books like Harry Potter are more "family" books, stuff written for kids but capable of being enjoyed by a lot of people. I also don't really consider YA from a pre-Twilight/Hunger Games world to be what is generally considered YA today. I mean, if its specifically angsty teen garbage it would be put with modern YA, but stuff like, to use a SW example, the Young Jedi Knights books are not YA as I'd describe them, but I think they were labeled that way at the time. But, bare minimum, any book that says its for Young adults and has came out since Twilight/Hunger Games became big is definite the YA I'm talking about. this includes all the garbage SW YA stuff, and every other YA book published since then.
Yes, they are.
'Genre' has nothing to do with mental hurdles you put yourself through to try and rationalise the irrationality of your likes/dislikes. Mostly because a books 'genre' has nothing to do with your opinion.
Genre is determined by shops (and other book 'producers') finding similarities in products, for the purpose of picking which shelves to put them on.
That's it. The end. Fin.
Hence why claiming to hate an entire 'genre' (especially ones as broad as YA or 'Classics) results in an everlasting list of 'but's' and ''exceptions'. Because genres only exist to take something endlessly diverse (novels) , and roughly shove them into around a dozen groups.
True story: My local bookstore puts the Star Wars novels on the same shelf as Hunger Games, Divergent, Roswell novels, and all that jazz.
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Nope. A crappy romance doesn't make it YA. Plus, for all the problems those movies have, teen angst isn't one. General angst, yeah, but there is a huge difference between Attack of the Clones and Twilight.
I completely disagree, and find that thinking a little ridiculous to be honest. YA is a distinct genre. Hunger Games and twilight are not the same kind of book as Harry p[otter, and their demographics are completely different.
And some stores used to put violent or sexual anime in the kids releases because "animation must be for kids". All that means is that some stores are run by people who don't care. Heck, some people (book snobs, usually) treat tie in books as inferior to non tie-in fiction, so it could be anything from not caring to action disdain that leads to SW books being shelved wrong.
Doesn't matter. They're both YA.
Might as well be say you hate Sci-Fi, because you don't like Blade Runner. But your love for Star Trek and Star Wars doesn't shoot down your 'I hate Sci-Fi' stance, because they're different and don't really 'count.'
More like they stuck both in the 'animation' section, which was also traditionally the 'kids' section. A classing that isn't exactly incorrect (they are all animated), just not exactly wise for entirely seperate reasons.
Alot of the problem was (and is) also caused by parents just buying any Anime for their sprog, under the assumption it was all Pokemon or DBZ. Say, that reminds me of some blanket claims i recently heard about YA ...
This would be more meaningful, if you yourself weren't arguing that YA isn't good enough for Star Wars.
Aka. You look down on it and find it 'inferior.' 'It' being millions of novels that you've never even heard of, let alone read.
And they're on that shelf, because a rather significant chunk of Star Wars fan base has always been younger. The 'canon' material produced when most of them were written, was a daytime cartoon. How many people here can honestly say they weren't 'YA' (or younger) when they started becoming invested in Star Wars?
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Is it possible then, that what the publishers and authors think their 12 - 18-targeted books are different from your definition of "YA"? A target audience for a book is different from the book's genre.
Okay, I never read those and missed the part where they were originally targeted for younger fans.
"YA" is simply an abbreviation for "young adult." That covers a wide range of materials written with non-adults in mind first, including stuff that's not in the genres you've noted you don't care for.
Hmmm.
How is bad teen angst worse than bad adult angst (or good adult angst better than good teen angst, for that matter)? In my experience, good writing trumps bad writing, regardless of what the original reading level was. (Case in point, Dr. Seuss was much more imaginative in his word choice, usage, and stories than Michael Crichton was in his novels.)
No, "YA" simply describes the target audience. Genre is the premise and setting of the story (e.g. sci-fi, fantasy, historical fiction, etc.). I'd actually describe what you don't like as "(angsty) teen romance," which is only one genre of many in the "YA" market.
That is true, since they're both different variations of the fantasy genre and one is intended to be accessible to middle schoolers as well as teens. But they are both written for the youth market.
So some places make mistakes. (Although comics are really not that kid-friendly anymore).
I think it's safe to say that tie-ins are harder to made good literature out of and won't become classics in the traditional sense, but then, they're supposed to fit in a different market and have their own standards of quality.
I don't really care about the opinions of publishers or writers in this scenario.
As far as I'm concerned, that's not true. Sure, some YA books might be, for example, teen angst romance in the wild west instead of with vampires. but that's just a variation in setting. As far as I'm concerned, yA is basically one or two stories with differences in setting and world building. Whether its a dystopian world with deadly contests, an idiot wanting to get together with a sparkling vampire, or a generic angsty teen romance that happens to be in the SW universe, those are all YA. Saying YA has "genres" might technically be true, but that's all window dressing. at the core, like I've said before, YA is YA.
Attack of the Clones wasn't trying to tell a YA story, so its automatically better then YA stuff. The YA clichés and tropes are what make its teen drama worse then adult drama. Bella and Edward's relationship makes Padme and Anakin look like a compelling, well written romance.
I disagree. Like I said above, that's all just window dressing. A YA that's historical fiction is exactly the same as a YA story set in the year 3000, just with a different setting. They're equally terrible and share at least a good portion of the standard YA tropes and cliches.
I don't have a high opinion of books that are generally considered "classics", but I also consider a lot tie-in fiction to also just be great books. I've certainly been more entertained by even mediocre SW books like The Dark Nest Trilogy then I was trying to struggle through sci-fi "classics" like Foundation or I, Robot. My general experience is that tie-in fiction is generally very good to high quality, certainly more then most of the "classics" I've tried to read.
That's really subjective I guess, but (to use Sci-Fi as an example) outside of the original Dune books I haven't seen a Sci Fi "classic" that even measures up to mediocre SW books. To be fair, I try to avoid "classics", but after attempting to suffer through stuff like Foundation I can say I find people trying to say stuff like that is inherently superior to even lackluster tie-in media to be ridiculous. There are some exceptions in other genres (like LOTR, and the old Sherlock holmes stuff) but, like them or not, "classics" aren't superior to anything. Being old or even well remembered, to me, doesn't automatically make them better then tie-in media.
Nope. Blade Runner (which I do hate) is at least not made for angsty teens. Again, all GA or more adult oriented stuff isn't the same. YA stuff is a very specific style, and that similarity is what makes it a YA story.
People can hold whatever opinions they want. I'm not particularly bothered by book snobs ignoring good books because they're not tedious, sometimes borderline unreadable cures for insomnia like most snobby "classics" are. Some things are just terrible, and everyone is going to have different opinions on that. To me, if you know about the YA tropes and cliches, even if you've never technically read a YA book you've still basically read them all. It all happens to be terrible, and yeah its not exactly something to treat as anything but the waste of time and resources it is.
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