Discussion in 'Fan Productions' started by oswater, Feb 5, 2013.
That's one thing. Doing it with a strong gay stereotype sort of ruins the message.
Well, at least this stirred up some discussion. I like that.
I didn't find Troy offensive per se, but he was the only character who was trafficking in such a stereotype. If the point is to lampoon the lack of gays in Star Trek, that's a terrific idea, just the execution here makes it unclear who the joke is on.
As I said before, comedy is subjective. When I watch "Troy" on screen, I see an exagerated woman. A caricature. To me, this is just a guy in drag performing on a stage. This is really no different than the type of performance you would find at a cabaret or drag show. The performance is meant to be "over the top".
Except he's not dressed as a woman or made to look like a woman in any way, shape, or form and DOES act like every single gay stereotype there ever was right down to the pedo-stache.
Again, he is playing a caricature of a woman. All of the characters refer to him as a woman in the film, and he wears makeup and a tight glittery body suit (ala 7 of 9). The John Waters stache highlights that he is a man, but I've seen lots of Drag performers rock that look too when in costume. The audience isn't suppose to believe he is a woman - that is part of the exagerated humor of the piece.
Well, I disagree. I see no caricature of a woman there. I see one of a gay man, though.
I have to ask... would you still feel this way if he had worn a woman's wig and shaved?
I have to ask... why are you trying so hard to convince some of us we shouldn't be offended?
I'm offended. Stop telling me why I shouldn't be.
Near as I can tell the mustache was a make-up addition, not a real one. Would I feel this way if the character that was "supposed to be a woman" looked like, well, a woman? Probably less offended, but it'd then just be a shitty stereotype/portrayal of a woman.
But, as is, the character is a gay stereotype. Hell, doesn't he/she casually flirt with "Worf" who exclaims he "doesn't have the gays" or something like that? Seems pretty damn strong to me it was meant to be a gay stereotype (even if the character wasn't a gay man) and not a female... "stereotype" or whatever they were going for there.
Because there's not a single thing about the character that says to me "female stereotype."
For one, I never told you that you shouldn't be offended. If you are offended, you have the right to say so, and I respect that opinion. I'm not offended by the film, and I've said why, and I have the right to express my views too. I'm not looking to change anyone's mind on this forum. I am simply expressing my thoughts on the matter, in the same way that you and others are expressing yours.
Troy is not being played as a caricature of a woman. The mannerisms are all gay stereotypes, not female stereotypes. He hisses as much as Roger DeBris in The Producers, for Pete's sake.
What I meant by caricature was that it was a pantomime/drag performance. Everything is camp, over the top, and melodramatic. At no time is the audience ever going to be convinced that this is a woman, and I believe that is the joke that the filmmakers were going for. I do think it would have been funnier if the character had worn a wig like Troi, but I think it's safe to say this film probably didn't have much of a costuming budget... lol...
Joke or insult, doesn't matter to me. It just wasn't funny.
By having the actor play the character as an unmistakable campy, gay stereotype and in no way like a female character at all?
Yeah, I get how that could be...unconvincing.
Not funny, either, so the "joke" is a failure all around.
(You know, it might have been mildly amusing if the actor had actually played a feminine character. To do it with any success would also have required performing skills not in evidence in this video.)
The other "actors" in the video aren't too bad, the guy doing the Picard with Shatner's Pausnia was... "decent." But it's all ruined by that strong, offensive, stereotype that'd have people in the 80s rolling their eyes.
legiondude, if there's a polaris sequel the mission should be to assassinate these lot
That's just an insult to the reality of African Americans in the early 20th century. I understand you want to be cute and put this in some sort of social context, but black-face is offensive not because it simply was a "white man playing a black man". It was offensive because it was an attempt to actively hold back and stifle black actors.
Movies were owned by studios then and they didn't have a high opinion on black people. You see, even if a black actor was good, he wouldn't get the part because he was black. And black parts back then weren't exactly Oscar caliber.
That is real prejudice.
That is real ignorance.
Please educate yourself before you liken a symptom of a corrupt, broken film industry about eighty years ago, to that of a YouTube video.
Get real, you two.
Also, keep a look out for our black-face episode entitled "If Ferengi Aren't Jews, Then Gene Roddenberry Didn't Come Up With It"
Atkin almost took the words out of my mouth. I don't think it ruins the message because I like to think my characters don't think about that way about Troy.
YOU feel that way about Troy.
Troy is a great character, in my opinion. Troy is an "Apollonian telepath" and Apollonia is a reference to the Apollonia 6, a group Prince produced. So Troy is a beautiful brightly colored 80's inspired androgynous dynamo inspired by people like Prince and David Bowie. Troy's beauty is known across multiple galaxies, so of course Troy is gonna take care of that make up and to make sure that John Water's inspired mustache is in check.
I don't think Troy is harmful at all.
If anything, Troy is probably my favorite because that character is what is getting people talking.
To be honest, I didn't write Troy as a homosexual. The only intentionally written homosexual is the Captain.
Sexuality isn't black and white to me; Every character has their own sexual quirk about them.
To me, Troy can wear the outfit, talk that way and act that way and still be just as feminine as you argue is homosexuality.
I just don't think those two things are mutually exclusive.
Again, the film you end up making becomes its own thing no matter what you intended. You're going to have to accept that to many people Troy isn't coming across as you might've aimed for. He reads as a mincing gay stereotype, ergo to many people that's what he's going to come across as.
gay stereotypes do hold back gay people and are offensive. maybe not as bad as blackface, but to the minority in question its a big deal.
and i guess since you didn't comment on it you liked the greedy jew idea.
^^^That was really unnecessary and unhelpful.
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