Star Trek Wrath of Khan backlash?

Discussion in 'Star Trek Movies I-X' started by Spocklight, Nov 24, 2016.

  1. WARLOCK1965

    WARLOCK1965 Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    Yes lots of errors but the death of Mr. Spock was an old network tale of NBC that didn't want Mr. Spock or a female first officer the network killed off the female first officer but not Mr. Spock until TWOK Spock saves the Enterprise and a true hero and it mark for the first time that a prime character could be killed off or die..
     
  2. Mage

    Mage Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Well, 9 pages of thread, but lemme still chime in....

    Yes, I personally also feel TWOK is overrated. It's a well put together movie, with good pacing and amazing effects for the time. Emotional as well.
    However, it is highly cliched and overdone. People claiming Khan was such a great character is something I can't understand, what a walking stereotype of a Hollywood villian. And yes, the old story of 'what is real Star Trek' is overdone and shouldn't happen here, because it differs for each fan. So, for me personally, this wasn't what Star Trek was about, just an action movie set in the Star Trek universe, like First Contact. I really enjoy both those movies, a lot even. But the best Trek movies ever? No. For TOS, that would be either TMP or TUC.
     
  3. Spock's Barber

    Spock's Barber Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    "Khaaaaaaaaaaaaaannnnnnnnnnnnn!!!!"
     
  4. Pure Antiproton

    Pure Antiproton Lieutenant Junior Grade Red Shirt

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    I watch TWOK twice a year at a minimum. The only movie I can quote line for line. It has its flaws but I also think it had the most human story line with its theme of aging, facing past mistakes and consequences, and finally family and mortality.
     
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  5. jaime

    jaime Commodore Commodore

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    I think bought, in context, means that they accepted the idea for further development, they believed it. Not that someone wrote a cheque.
     
  6. Smellmet

    Smellmet Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    I reckon I've seen it close to 200 times. It's still the best for me. TMP and the three reboot movies are the only challengers in my opinion.
     
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  7. Vger23

    Vger23 Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    One of the biggest issues with Star Trek movies, in my experience, is that they are judged as "STAR TREK MOVIES" and not simply as "movies," especially by the fans. I'm reading a lot of that here.

    It's funny because I watch stuff like Guardians of the Galaxy or The Avengers, which everyone essentially has an orgasm over...and I think to myself "this is pretty much identical in terms of structure, fun, plot, positives and negatives as the Reboot Star Trek movies," yet those same people who love Avengers will defecate all over the reboots.

    I watched Guardians and thought it was far weaker than any of the reboots. Yet, if you were to read out here or talk to an everyday fan...they'd squee over GOTG and crap on the Trek movies.

    I'm just the opposite. All things being equal- Star Trek gets the edge for me just because I love that universe and those characters. So, same general plot and structure for a GOTG or superhero movie and I'll take the Trek movie any time. It feels like most "fans" are exactly the opposite though...they'll accept foolishness from other genre movies...but if Trek is anything other than exactly what they expect or want...it's pure shit.

    It's an odd phenomenon...and I've never been able to get my head wrapped around it.
     
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  8. WARLOCK1965

    WARLOCK1965 Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    The wanted tv versions movies that captured the tv style with Kirk it been a number of years the fans for the most part could not understand people change so their characters had to change too. The reboots were a different unverse style and most fans could not deal with multiple prime unverses or multiple mirror unverses. The fans for most part will only believe in one prime and one mirror universe. To me all of the star trek movies tell great stories. The wrath of Kran and Into the darkness are role reverse stories but that is what happens with multiple unverses following almost the same paths
     
  9. jaime

    jaime Commodore Commodore

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    For guardians etc, you have to in account that any pre-existing fan base is largely going to be happy seeing their characters on the Big Screen. The reboots are not that, so they are judged on a different standard. Once that initial shine is off, they will start being judged in relation to each other, rather than just other motion pictures...they become in essence, their own genre within a genre within a genre...which is the point Trek has been at for some time.
     
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  10. Vger23

    Vger23 Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    I think this is a good point, but I'm actually not talking about existing fan base. Im talking about the thousands upon thousands who casually went to see the movie, and thought it was TEH AWESOME!!1! but that same person wouldn't like or even care about Star Trek, despite the fact that the two franchises essentially offer the same stuff to audiences.

    I'm also talking about the person who is a "Trek fan first" who likes the GOTG or Avengers movies better than the reboots, again despite the fact that they are essentially the same thing in different clothes.

    But, we are way off topic.
     
  11. jaime

    jaime Commodore Commodore

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    Same sort of hang up though...some people just don't like reboots. The baggage is different...some people gave up on Trek, whereas Gog is new and shiny.

    On a related note, watching Jurassic World it struck me that Chris Pratt is a far better movie era Kirk than Pine was at that time. Maybe they should have swapped.
     
  12. Vger23

    Vger23 Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    No f-ing way. ;)
     
  13. USSPhilippi

    USSPhilippi Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    I have a Trekkie friend who can't watch TWoK because of the Ceti eels. She says they creep her out.
     
  14. Maurice

    Maurice Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Generalize much? Maybe SOME women.
     
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  15. WARLOCK1965

    WARLOCK1965 Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    Tell her it's no different from the bugs that may walk on you when you sleep
     
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  16. Herbert

    Herbert Commander Red Shirt

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    Oh yeah. That'll work :guffaw:
     
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  17. JRTStarlight

    JRTStarlight Commander Red Shirt

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    For Trek, I have to look at movies as "episodes" and simply judge them on the same scale as the TV series. Some episodes are great, most are good, most are even above average (of all movie and TV shows one could watch), and some are not even that, failing in some way. But every Trek series is well above average entertainment, and if you can subtract just 5% of all episodes from each series to get rid of the stinkers, every series is truly MUST SEE T.V.

    While TWOK has some problems, it has never really failed or been a bad episode, but a great one. Any flaws it has are probably not insurmountable or worse than many flaws in any of the Trek series. Far from in the 5%, it ranks close to the top. I don't mind if some feel it ranks lower than right up near the top, but it still ranks up there. Even today, I can always sit down and watch it and enjoy it. The Abrams stuff, not so much. They are so unTrek-like or flawed I can't bring myself to take any of them out of that 5% group, and yet the majority (it seems to me) love these things. The only inclination I have ever had to rewatch an Abrams' Trek is to better document its flaws.

    But I'm also a weirdo who thinks TMP is pretty darn good, and the director's cut, especially so. Wrath is a pretty good movie, and a great Star Trek episode.
     
    Last edited: Jul 18, 2017
  18. M

    M Precious Snowflake Moderator

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    Nothing weird about it. The Motion Picture is pretty much everyone's favorite around the board. And rightly so, I love it too.
     
  19. JRTStarlight

    JRTStarlight Commander Red Shirt

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    I haven't been on this board long enough to know that, but most other places I've been the majority seem to feel TMP was . . . tedious. I guess that's my problem with Abrams, too. Growing up, Abrams said he felt TOS was so tedious he couldn't really get through entire episodes - just didn't have time for all that talk, talk, talk. And his movies reflect that - more Star Wars homage and science fantasy (not that this is wrong in and of itself) than Star Trek and science fiction.

    I don't mind the new actors or the acting or anything, but the stories are bad, the ideas are hard to take, the slip shod use of and violations of Trek lore and common sense are distracting, and where actual science applies, is this guy even scientifically literate? There is a difference between jargon and gobbledygook, and I don't think he knows it.

    Just my opinion, of course. I don't want to fight about it, and I state without reservation if you like those Abrams' films, you are perfectly right to do so. Personal preferences are not intrinsic properties of the universe.
     
  20. Herbert

    Herbert Commander Red Shirt

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    It is tedious in parts. I've grown to enjoy it over the years but man they could have tightened up in parts. It's been quite a few years since I've watched it though. Time to revisit