Star Trek V isn't that bad...

[Vger23]

Klaa is “bored,” but that’s not why the Klingons appear in the film. The Nimbus 3 hostages are assigned to Klaa to investigate, given that one of them is a Klingon citizen. When Klaa finds out the Enterprise is on its way to Nimbus, he views it as an opportunity to defeat Kirk, who as of TVH, was labeled as an enemy of the Klingon people.

Klaa is then bested by Kirk in orbit, and he knows he must pursue him or honor will be lost.
It’s not the greatest motivation in the world…but it’s not completely hollow, either.

 

[Ssosmcin]

Klaa is “bored,” but that’s not why the Klingons appear in the film. The Nimbus 3 hostages are assigned to Klaa to investigate, given that one of them is a Klingon citizen. When Klaa finds out the Enterprise is on its way to Nimbus, he views it as an opportunity to defeat Kirk, who as of TVH, was labeled as an enemy of the Klingon people.

Klaa is then bested by Kirk in orbit, and he knows he must pursue him or honor will be lost.
It’s not the greatest motivation in the world…but it’s not completely hollow, either.

Klaa is a Klingon being a Klingon. The last time we see them as such in a classic Trek film, before they became Shakespeare spouting conspiracy plotters.

 

[jaime]

Klaa is “bored,” but that’s not why the Klingons appear in the film. The Nimbus 3 hostages are assigned to Klaa to investigate, given that one of them is a Klingon citizen. When Klaa finds out the Enterprise is on its way to Nimbus, he views it as an opportunity to defeat Kirk, who as of TVH, was labeled as an enemy of the Klingon people.

Klaa is then bested by Kirk in orbit, and he knows he must pursue him or honor will be lost.
It’s not the greatest motivation in the world…but it’s not completely hollow, either.

Don’t forget that to the Empire, it’s clearly a Federation race that has taken the hostages in the first place. He’s basically Klingon cop on the chase.

 

[jaime]

According to Star Trek Movie Memories, William Shatner was influenced by a couple of successful televangelists at the time. And knowing that, I appreciate the movie more.

License To Kill had dodgy televangelists too — something in the water that year.

 

[Ssosmcin]

1989 was a great summer for movies. Hell, the entire DECADE was amazing and Star Trek was a HUGE part of that. TFF has a very warm place in my heart and I loved it - in spite of its flaws - ever since opening night. I prefer it vastly to TVH, it resonates with me much more strongly. It returns the crew to their places as a family, as hammered home by the superb TSFS (TVH split them up for the bulk of the film). While I would retroactively recut the film and remove a lot of the cheesier jokes, I think it's a fun film that - had it just one more rewrite - would have been a much more popular entry in the series.

 

[jaime]

One complaint that bugs me is the ‘Kirk is everywhere/Kirk is the centre’
Which he has been since at least Khan, and in two films directed by Nimoy. (Including hanging about Spock and Sarek at the end of IV)
Because… that’s how Trek was set up. Shatner, as Kirk, is the star. It’s how things worked back then.
If anything, Kirk is centred less here, because that’s Spocks half-brother, and *everyone* gets a scene or two. If the deleted scenes were in, even the guests get more to do than they did in other films.
And for him being the hero?
Well, he’s been shown as less heroic or put through the wringer in three movies now (making mistakes in Khan, losing his son in Search, fish out of water in Voyage) so it’s ok to rebuild the legend a bit — again, this is how stories like Trek worked back then.

The idea that it is just because Shatner is working behind the scenes this time is daft, and not a complaint levelled at Nimoy, who was behind the scenes in three out of six movies, and had a *lot* of latitude in the first two due to contract wrangling. The clauses of which are why he encouraged his friend Bill to get behind the camera on Final Frontier.

The jokes are studio mandated, and at least make some sense in situ. The only out of place thing with Uhura is that they ended up dubbing in someone else singing — if you look at the characters past portrayal, in the swinging sixties, it fits right in with TOS. It may offend our modern sensibilities, but it’s just Trek Trekking.

It really is the most TOS of the movies, even if the FX are more in line with Season Three…

 

[Vger23]

One complaint that bugs me is the ‘Kirk is everywhere/Kirk is the centre’
Which he has been since at least Khan, and in two films directed by Nimoy. (Including hanging about Spock and Sarek at the end of IV)
Because… that’s how Trek was set up. Shatner, as Kirk, is the star. It’s how things worked back then.
If anything, Kirk is centred less here, because that’s Spocks half-brother, and *everyone* gets a scene or two. If the deleted scenes were in, even the guests get more to do than they did in other films.
And for him being the hero?
Well, he’s been shown as less heroic or put through the wringer in three movies now (making mistakes in Khan, losing his son in Search, fish out of water in Voyage) so it’s ok to rebuild the legend a bit — again, this is how stories like Trek worked back then.

The idea that it is just because Shatner is working behind the scenes this time is daft, and not a complaint levelled at Nimoy, who was behind the scenes in three out of six movies, and had a *lot* of latitude in the first two due to contract wrangling. The clauses of which are why he encouraged his friend Bill to get behind the camera on Final Frontier.

The jokes are studio mandated, and at least make some sense in situ. The only out of place thing with Uhura is that they ended up dubbing in someone else singing — if you look at the characters past portrayal, in the swinging sixties, it fits right in with TOS. It may offend our modern sensibilities, but it’s just Trek Trekking.

It really is the most TOS of the movies, even if the FX are more in line with Season Three…

I agree with this 100%. It's like complaining about a Batman movie where (gasp) Batman is the main character or having a Sly Stallone action movie where Sly gets all the badass scenes. TOS was not an ensemble show. It was Kirk leading the way with sometimes Spock as a focus and (rarely) McCoy. It gets unfair scrutiny for Kirk's role because Shatner wrote and directed, and a segment of the fanbase LOVES to abuse Shatner. TFF is structured exactly like the bulk of TOS, with Kirk as the hero and Spock getting some interesting character development stuff, with the rest of the team having their moment.

I think having Kirk free-climb El Capitain was over-the-top...but otherwise, it's just typical Star Trek to me.

I also agree that the level of humor in the film was not all the writing team's fault. The studio was always trying to squeeze money out of Star Trek with the lowest possible investment, and they figured that TVH had been a success because it was funny...so hey, let's put humor into this very serious story about a quest for the supreme being, personal pain, and the power of friendship. At the end of the day, though...the writers bear the responsibility for the execution of the humor, which at times was brilliant and witty (some of the campfire stuff, Sulu and Kirk in the shuttle "Actually it's my first attempt," "I am well-versed in the classics" etc) and sometimes fell flat (Uhura fan dance, "Sulu look, the sun's come out," "I know this ship," etc).

 

[Ssosmcin]

I agree with this 100%. It's like complaining about a Batman movie where (gasp) Batman is the main character or having a Sly Stallone action movie where Sly gets all the badass scenes. TOS was not an ensemble show. It was Kirk leading the way with sometimes Spock as a focus and (rarely) McCoy. It gets unfair scrutiny for Kirk's role because Shatner wrote and directed, and a segment of the fanbase LOVES to abuse Shatner. TFF is structured exactly like the bulk of TOS, with Kirk as the hero and Spock getting some interesting character development stuff, with the rest of the team having their moment.

Exactly, Shatner has been the lead since the second pilot. And he had been playing an idealized version of himself since the second season. However, I will agree that, starting with TVH, he was unrestrained and given to falling back on his “Shatnerisms.” His underhand pointing, the facial tics and the jerky motions. The reveal of Sybok being a half brother was probably the worst of it. Not only is Shatner bouncing off the walls with his shenanigans, he plays it like a grade school kid (“you made that up!” “there ya see? See?”). It should have been a serious conversation to convince US it wasn't BS, since the whole notion is on shaky ground to begin with.

But honestly, other than the goofy humor and some under developed characters, I’m fine with it.

 

[suarezguy]

It is pretty weird to me that most fans love Shatner and yet also hate what he did to the supporting characters in TFF. Shatner does have a nice out about it in that Paramount very much and understandably wanted the followup to TVH to have more broad, goofy humor but he didn't really have to have it so much at the expense of the supporting characters.

Me, being pretty contrarian, don't either love or dislike Shatner, he's fine and usually good, and don't dislike most of the humor in TFF, it's definitely goofy which can be and is fine, it's a bit at the expense of the supporting characters but it also comes off as affectionate enough.

 

[Warped9]

There are parts of TFF where Shatner is way more Shatner than Kirk, so the goofiness wasn’t relegated strictly to the supporting cast. TVH and TFF are more in keeping with the comedic TOS episodes “The Trouble With Tribbles,” “A Piece Of The Action” and “I, Mudd,” episodes I’m not that fond of. The problem with that is the subject matter is rather serious and much of the humour feels out of place and at the expense of the characters rather than laughing with them.

Treating the subject of the film with homour strikes me as something that could be done by a standup comedian rather than a dramatic science fiction property.

 

[Ssosmcin]

Even if you take out some of the goofier slapstick, there are still some really cheesy lines that could have been massaged into something better. Mostly the stuff Doohan was given. They had 3 years between films this time and they still needed a rewrite. Or someone better than the guy they hired to do the screenplay.

I could armchair quarterback this movie all day and come up with a dozen scenarios to make it a better film before it was shot. However, the film exists as it is, nobody's ever gonna go back and change it and I enjoy it. I've always enjoyed it. I've never felt it was nearly as bad as most people think. But then, I always like films that other people don't.

 

[Ovation]

Even if you take out some of the goofier slapstick, there are still some really cheesy lines that could have been massaged into something better. Mostly the stuff Doohan was given. They had 3 years between films this time and they still needed a rewrite. Or someone better than the guy they hired to do the screenplay.

I could armchair quarterback this movie all day and come up with a dozen scenarios to make it a better film before it was shot. However, the film exists as it is, nobody's ever gonna go back and change it and I enjoy it. I've always enjoyed it. I've never felt it was nearly as bad as most people think. But then, I always like films that other people don't.

A writer’s strike was a limiting factor in terms of script polishing, IIRC.

 

[Ssosmcin]

Now that you mention it, I think I do remember hearing something like that. The making of these movies gets a little mixed up in my head and I don't have the reference books I used to anymore.

 

[STEPhon IT]

There are parts of TFF where Shatner is way more Shatner than Kirk, so the goofiness wasn’t relegated strictly to the supporting cast. TVH and TFF are more in keeping with the comedic TOS episodes “The Trouble With Tribbles,” “A Piece Of The Action” and “I, Mudd,” episodes I’m not that fond of. The problem with that is the subject matter is rather serious and much of the humour feels out of place and at the expense of the characters rather than laughing with them.

Treating the subject of the film with homour strikes me as something that could be done by a standup comedian rather than a dramatic science fiction property.

I still believe a lot of us could ignore any of the wrongs from the movie if the special effects wasn't so bad. There are many things I disliked from TMP but I could find that in almost any movie, TFF was a fun movie which represented those episodes which were light hearted and it was a needed fresh air from TSFS. TMP really really REALLY needed to loosen up because it lacked any fun which was something I adored about Star Trek.

 

[Ssosmcin]

Everyone's mileage varies, however, I only feel two or three effects sequences exist in the film that I would consider "bad". The Enterprise cutout sliding sideways like a Filmation cartoon when Chekov warps out, Shatner flailing against the rear projected El Capitan as he falls and the "God Thing" just before the BoP blows it to hell. But I give that one a pass, because it was a Hail Mary to save the ending of the film.

considering how Ghostbusters II and Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade turned out, I don't think ILM would've made the film look much better either. Shatner and Bennett were right in looking elsewhere because ILM was overworked. Unfortunately they didn't go with Dream Quest or someplace more suited to the demands of the film.

 

[Warped9]

Maybe there should be a TFF-R.

 

[Vger23]

Everyone's mileage varies, however, I only feel two or three effects sequences exist in the film that I would consider "bad". The Enterprise cutout sliding sideways like a Filmation cartoon when Chekov warps out, Shatner flailing against the rear projected El Capitan as he falls and the "God Thing" just before the BoP blows it to hell. But I give that one a pass, because it was a Hail Mary to save the ending of the film.

considering how Ghostbusters II and Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade turned out, I don't think ILM would've made the film look much better either. Shatner and Bennett were right in looking elsewhere because ILM was overworked. Unfortunately they didn't go with Dream Quest or someplace more suited to the demands of the film.

Almost all of the model work is admittedly pretty bad. It’s badly lit, badly composited and it all looks like “cutouts sliding across the screen.” The shuttlecraft stuff looks pretty atrocious. Most of the good VFX are the in-camera stuff, which Ferren was actually traditionally great at, and some shots where the models were more stationary (moon shot, some shots over Sha Ka Ree, etc)

Comparing the model and miniature work from TMP a decade earlier and TFF is where it really shows.

 

[Ssosmcin]

I dunno, the Bird of Prey flying right into the camera still kicks ass.

To be fair, the movie Enterprise was lit too brightly and flat for most of the films. Only TMP really nailed it and TWOK matched it fairly well. But the rest of em...

 

[Warped9]

To be fair, the movie Enterprise was lit too brightly and flat for most of the films. Only TMP really nailed it and TWOK matched it fairly well. But the rest of em...

Very true. After the first two films the refit was never really filmed well.

Not surprising perhaps. Back when TSFS was made there was a story going around the fx guys really enjoyed torching and wrecking the refit, motivated by not really liking the design. If true thats really said. Even if it were my job I’d be heartbroken having to deliberately wreck the Enterprise.

Maybe after the first two films the post production’s attitude (along with less money in the budget?) might have become who really gives a shit.

 

[mb22]

ILM's Ken Ralston hated the Enterprise model (and its appearance in general) the TMP sheen was removed for TWOK, supposedly to make it easier to film. As for "filming well":

"I hate that model. I think it's made out of lead. I don't know what's inside to make it so heavy; it took eight guys to mount it for a shot and a forklift to move it around. (...) I'll probably get attacked about his, but I'm just not crazy about the original design of the Enterprise. It's a shape that does not lend itself easily to looking good in the frame. It's hard to come up with angles that read like anything. There are only two good angles on it."

https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Ken_Ralston