I've considered that Flint IS a Highlander Immortal. He fled Earth to escape the Gathering.
Star Trek TOS Re-Watch
- Thread starter Commander Troi
- Start date
I have long assumed Flint manipulated/influenced Kirk in some unseen way to make him behave so uncharacteristically stupid.
I just assumed that Kirk was coming down with the plague that was burning through the Enterprise and thus wasn't thinking straight
That could work. And it would have taken was one line of dialogue to establish that.I just assumed that Kirk was coming down with the plague that was burning through the Enterprise and thus wasn't thinking straight
That would be worse, IMHO. Because now not only is he futzing around while his crew is dying but now he doesn't even care that HE'S dying. And more to the point Spock and McCoy wouldn't seem very interested either!
True enough. But at least it’s a bare bones rationalization. The real problem with some of these third season episodes is the lack of a decent final rewrite or edit to fix obvious flaws.
No episode is perfect and any of them can be criticized, but there are some that have glaring logic flaws that really should have been addressed. There is no episode of TOS I actually hate, but there are a few that really needed a proper final edit or rewrite being being filmed.
Here is one and it’s an episode I really like, “Where No Man Has Gone Before.” When Dehner temporarily weakens Mitchell it has already been established Kirk has to kill Mitchell to stop him. But instead of using the phaser rifle he brought along for that very reason Kirk opts to fist-fight with Mitchell. Was he thinking he could beat Mitchell into submission? At one point he is about to pummel Mitchell’s head with a a boulder until Mitchell stops him.
It was dumb on Kirk’s part. It would have been far smarter, and cleaner, for Kirk to kill Mitchell with the phaser rifle when he had the chance. But just maybe Kirk hadn’t yet reached that desperation point yet to really do what had to be done? That works as a rationalization in an otherwise very good episode on so many levels. But, of course, a western style fist fight is more familiarly dramatic than vaporizing someone with a raygun.
The essential story of “Requiem For Methuselah” is sound enough. But it also hinges on your show’s hero behaving uncharacteristically irrational without any justification for it. Spock did not Kirk’s irrational obsession with Rayna, but he doesn’t pursue it. He doesn’t discuss it with McCoy or even point it out to Kirk he is behaving irrationally. Neither does McCoy. So as it’s written the story not only makes Kirk look bad, but it makes Spock and McCoy look bad as well. This is underlined by the fact both Spock and McCoy question Kirk’s behaviour in “Obsession” at a time Kirk was actually not being irrational.
It happens again in “Turnabout Intruder.” This time Kirk is behaving irrationally and obviously out of character (due to Janice Lester’s consciousness swap) in such a way that both Spock and McCoy should have noted it immediately, but don’t until Kirk (stuck in Lester’s body) brings the issue to the fore. So everyone looks bad in this one given they already had experience with consciousness or life-force swapping from the events of “Return To Tomorrow.”
Sorry, I didn't state my position clearly; I think the entire landing party has the plague! But they are the Enterprise's last hope, so options are limited
I remember Kirk being quite stupid in this one too. But upon rewatching it, I don't think it was that bad. Kirk flirts with Rayna during the waiting time for the cure to be refined and developed. There's no much else he could do until then, but the rest of the time he seems focused on the illness. It's worse at the end, when McCoy already has the cure and yet he doesn't beam up immediately.
This is a little bit like saying John Robinson and Don West should "Just kill Smith." At least, I've seen somebody say that. And they can't, if you put yourself in their place.
If Kirk reports back to Headquarters that he shot Mitchell dead the moment Mitchell was rendered helpless, there would be some questions. There just aren't any precedents for this situation, where a bad guy is unarmed and powerless, but you absolutely must kill him anyway.
It's asking Kirk not only to have moral certainty in the midst of a crisis, which he kind of does, having now adopted Spock's opinion, but also to take a human life cold, with no running start. So when Mitchell is momentary powerless and Kirk starts beating him up, you can ask "What's the plan?"— but there is no plan, because Kirk is caught between knowing Mitchell has to die and not being an ice-cold trigger man on his best friend.
This is not my recollection.
Yeah, McCoy at least was highly suspicious and requested a full medical exam on Kirk. When the brain-waves turned out to be identical to those of "real Kirk", McCoy had to accept (begrudgingly) that he was the same man.
Spock wasn't convinced until he read Kirk's mind (inside Lester). But still, he must have been a bit suspicious to go ahead with the mind-meld.
And I call bullshit on this, story wise. McCoy has shown enough times not trusting technology that he had to know something was still wrong. There is absolutely no way Lester/Kirk could have passed this examination.
Not the hardest thing to fix either. Gary could be so far gone at this point that even though his eyes aren't silver, "normal" Gary isn't really there. So instead of Kirk going directly to the punches, he turns to run toward the rifle, but Gary grabs him. Now it's a fight as Gary tries to preserve his own life until his strength returns. Since Gary is actually fighting back pretty hard and not saying "Jim wait, it's me!" or "Do it!" this could actually work.
Production wise, obviously they wanted "two guys fighting in a ditch" at the end. But even as a kid I wondered what Kirk's endgame was. Dehner clearly says there isn't much time so Kirk goes for the slowest and least efficient means of killing: a brawl. He doesn't take advantage of Gary's weakened state to even grab a rock.
But, then again, Gary is Kirk's best friend. He doesn't want to do it, he has to. In the moment, Kirk is procrastinating, as it's assumed that this is actually Gary he's hitting, not GodMitchell. He can't do it. At the same time, "normal" Gary would make Kirk's resolve weaken further if he gave him time to talk, instead of having to defend himself. So he's raining blows on him to keep Gary quiet, but knows he has to do it and grabs the big rock when he has the advantage. But even then, Kirk stalls before delivering the final blow.
Then GodMitchell comes back and he isn't thinking straight because he could have snuffed Kirk's life out any which way instead of continuing with the physical assault. But Kirk made him mad and anger brings carelessness. Kirk was counting on this, so he maneuvers GodMitchell close to the grave, they both fall in and Kirk makes his desperate scramble now that he's bought himself a few more seconds. He knows the phaser beams won't hurt him and now GodMitchell is in the perfect position.
Well done, Jim!
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I have never had an issue with Jim not using the Phaser Rifle (TM) in WNMHGB up to and including now. From a very young age I have wanted to know why they did not send a shuttle down to rescue Sulu in The Enemy Within.
I suppose if I had an issue with WNMHGB it would be why is there an outpost (even an unmanned one) that is a hop, skip, and a jump from, well, where no man had gone before? What the heck were they mining that they couldn't produce much closer to home? You could say it wasn't a human outpost but that would imply that someone ELSE'S home was very close to Here Be Monsters.
Now I'm picturing some space-faring but still clearly based on 1950's Cowboy Western native stereotypes talking about the "Bad Magic" in the "Lightning Cloud" and the "Far Place" where they never go.
Nope. Where No Man Has Gone Before is still one of the Perfect Episodes. Right out of the gate, too. Oh, and it kicks the crap out of The Cage.
I suppose if I had an issue with WNMHGB it would be why is there an outpost (even an unmanned one) that is a hop, skip, and a jump from, well, where no man had gone before? What the heck were they mining that they couldn't produce much closer to home? You could say it wasn't a human outpost but that would imply that someone ELSE'S home was very close to Here Be Monsters.
Now I'm picturing some space-faring but still clearly based on 1950's Cowboy Western native stereotypes talking about the "Bad Magic" in the "Lightning Cloud" and the "Far Place" where they never go.
Nope. Where No Man Has Gone Before is still one of the Perfect Episodes. Right out of the gate, too. Oh, and it kicks the crap out of The Cage.
Yeah, that never made any sense to me either. If they’re so far out there then how do you explain the existence of an automated mining facility on Delta Vega so handily within range on impulse?
When people refer to the “edge” of the galaxy the immediate assumption is they’re referring to the outer edge of the galactic disc. But strictly speaking the upper and lower surfaces of the galactic disc are also edges. The real distinction is you’re crossing from interstellar space to intergalactic space so that line, wherever you’re crossing, is an edge or the edge between one area and another. In that respect then the Enterprise isn’t necessarily 20,000 some ly from Earth, but more likely about 1500 ly roughly above or below from Earth. That makes the existence of the Delta Vega facility “out on the fringe” somewhat more plausible. But it begs the question if Delta Vega is so far out there then why has no one else ventured outside the galaxy, at least on record?
Another clue to the “edge” being referred to is more likely the upper or lower plane of the galactic disc is Kirk’s reference that Earth outposts once days away were now years in the distance. If they’re were at the outer edge of the galactic disc then those outposts would far more likely be at least weeks to months or even years away even at warp speeds.
I also agree that as significant and interesting as “The Cage” is it’s not as good as “Where No Man Has Gone Before” as a pilot representative of the series to come or as good in overall execution of story.
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"Requiem for Methuselah"
Disclaimer: I came to the latest page and thought I saw the F-word (eh, "Flint"). I will post my ruminations first and then track back and backtrack.
It's interesting that the episode starts out with a discrepancy over ship sensors vs local sensors via tricorder. The way the episode passes it off via Flint's seclusion is nicely handled, though I'm a little surprised that Spock of all people would forget about the "1 life form reading" and not 2. Then again, he did partake in the century-old booze, which might wordlessly explain that off as well.
The mystery of Flint is really nicely handled. I've always liked the episode, but had forgotten so many details that it felt like I was watching it again for the very first time.
I did find it amusing that Flint would have a big castle structure, with rooms containing fake rock adornments. The dude has some artistry, certainly, and yet the whole of the set design for his rooms still works.
Star Trek invented the idea of the flat screen television as Rayna is watching Kirk, and later Rayna and Flint both watching him.
Spock does hypothesize numerous things-- first off, this is a GREAT Spock episode. He correctly surmises they are being watched, which doesn't faze Kirk. This renders later scenes where Spock makes more guesses and tells Jim to not enter the storage room more palpable. Of course, we then see how there's an implied 15 Rayna models laid out, which is creepy as all heck, regardless if you the viewer remembered that sliver of dialogue about the lifeform count.
This episode is blessed with a lot of great handheld camera work, by the way.
M4, interesting name but it may have been a placeholder in the script never updated, doesn't detect iridium that McCoy does. No worries, M4 goes out with Flint supervising it (which folds into Spock's hypothesis that Flint is keeping them there for a reason) is another giveaway that something's amiss, and when McCoy sees the second batch, he accepts it at face value without testing, despite all of them not exactly trusting Flint.
I don't know who has the best dialogue in this. Either Spock does with the "defy the male logic" line, or McCoy in his impassioned speeches, of which the one to Spock at the end is one of the best. I'm going to say McCoy as he has two fantastic mic drops, complete with anvils adjacent. Then again, Spock asking Rayna how she will feel is a double triple drop with a piano on top in of its own.
A lot of the dialogue in this is absolutely poetic, in all the good ways.
All the acting in this is phenomenal, by the way.
Okay, how does Flint have a roaming camera hidden to capture artsy angles of Kirk and Rayna hitting first base,. especially when Flint values his seclusion and left Earth and telling our heroes how a savage race it is? (shades of Q in TNG, almost.)
Flint's background is not fully explained - just a mystical being who has the ability to regenerate vital organs. He's not a time lord, but enough exposition is given to roll with it. Does it matter if he came from Mesopotamia, New Jersey, HocusPocusFocus LXXIII, or anywhere else? Not for the point or confines of this story, no.
The goal is to explore the human condition, ironically via Rayna (yes, we all know what inspired Rayna Kapec's name). "Stop, I choose!!" is a monumental moment.
The reason, a trope, that Kirk and crew are forced to stay with Flint is impeccably well scripted and eschews the sort of cliché you'd more often see.
One small thing - Rayna can't die. Just replace the burnt out fuse and microchip and she'll be back to where she was, so do a chkdsk and clean up those last few minutes of corrupted data or she'll go into a logic loop. Usually, Kirk nags computers to self-destruct but never loves 'em to death!! Indeed, his passionate demand of "Childhood must end, love me!!" (which borders irony of another sort) really shows how smitten Kirk had become, which ties into McCoy's speech at the end. Needed, because otherwise Kirk's passion would be narratively hollow.
As with so much of this story, even the idea of doing it with a robot would come across juvenile or silly. This story makes it possible to really believe the situation, which is the most bizarre element of them all.
Flint using Kirk to train her to have emotions like love is really... nasty. McCoy rightly snaps over the nastiness Flint was to do on them even though they are far removed from the humanity Flint knew of centuries prior. Again, this episode's script is fantastic where it needs to be. Especially as the crux of the story is Flint using Kirk to make a... sex doll that's more lifelike than anything ever seen before. The episode is an interesting statement on loneliness on top of everything else. And so maturely handled.
That said, how come M4's phaser deactivation field is arbitrary as the weapons are useless at the start of the episode but Spock fires without a concern? (Power saving mode, perhaps, to use it only when there's threat and Kirk would have triggered it. Spock was... just out of range, it seems, and M4 was close to our trio at the start.)
The ending is a little tidy as Spock has a newfound ability to make people forget things, but McCoy getting to say how Flint - removed from Earth - is now slowly aging. Sorta like a reverse Superman, where Jor El comes to Earth and becomes powerful, but if that was a form of inspiration, it sure as heck wasn't noticed.
Rayna surely was an influence for Lal (from "The Offspring" (TNG).)
The story's plot was thin, but the mature and visceral flavor of the episode, and phenomenal acting definitely, make up for any shortcomings, noting that it's borderline plot magic that Flint can miniaturize the whole ship and crew, to freeze them for a couple thousand years, but he is one paranoid dude - it's a subtle undercurrent running throughout and intelligently applied in script. So much of this episode hits the spot.
Fred Freiberger shook up TOS's format, certainly. Clunkers did exist, but this episode is nothing of the sort.
9.5/10
Disclaimer: I came to the latest page and thought I saw the F-word (eh, "Flint"). I will post my ruminations first and then track back and backtrack.
It's interesting that the episode starts out with a discrepancy over ship sensors vs local sensors via tricorder. The way the episode passes it off via Flint's seclusion is nicely handled, though I'm a little surprised that Spock of all people would forget about the "1 life form reading" and not 2. Then again, he did partake in the century-old booze, which might wordlessly explain that off as well.
The mystery of Flint is really nicely handled. I've always liked the episode, but had forgotten so many details that it felt like I was watching it again for the very first time.
I did find it amusing that Flint would have a big castle structure, with rooms containing fake rock adornments. The dude has some artistry, certainly, and yet the whole of the set design for his rooms still works.
Star Trek invented the idea of the flat screen television as Rayna is watching Kirk, and later Rayna and Flint both watching him.
Spock does hypothesize numerous things-- first off, this is a GREAT Spock episode. He correctly surmises they are being watched, which doesn't faze Kirk. This renders later scenes where Spock makes more guesses and tells Jim to not enter the storage room more palpable. Of course, we then see how there's an implied 15 Rayna models laid out, which is creepy as all heck, regardless if you the viewer remembered that sliver of dialogue about the lifeform count.
This episode is blessed with a lot of great handheld camera work, by the way.
M4, interesting name but it may have been a placeholder in the script never updated, doesn't detect iridium that McCoy does. No worries, M4 goes out with Flint supervising it (which folds into Spock's hypothesis that Flint is keeping them there for a reason) is another giveaway that something's amiss, and when McCoy sees the second batch, he accepts it at face value without testing, despite all of them not exactly trusting Flint.
I don't know who has the best dialogue in this. Either Spock does with the "defy the male logic" line, or McCoy in his impassioned speeches, of which the one to Spock at the end is one of the best. I'm going to say McCoy as he has two fantastic mic drops, complete with anvils adjacent. Then again, Spock asking Rayna how she will feel is a double triple drop with a piano on top in of its own.
A lot of the dialogue in this is absolutely poetic, in all the good ways.
All the acting in this is phenomenal, by the way.
Okay, how does Flint have a roaming camera hidden to capture artsy angles of Kirk and Rayna hitting first base,. especially when Flint values his seclusion and left Earth and telling our heroes how a savage race it is? (shades of Q in TNG, almost.)
Flint's background is not fully explained - just a mystical being who has the ability to regenerate vital organs. He's not a time lord, but enough exposition is given to roll with it. Does it matter if he came from Mesopotamia, New Jersey, HocusPocusFocus LXXIII, or anywhere else? Not for the point or confines of this story, no.
The goal is to explore the human condition, ironically via Rayna (yes, we all know what inspired Rayna Kapec's name). "Stop, I choose!!" is a monumental moment.
The reason, a trope, that Kirk and crew are forced to stay with Flint is impeccably well scripted and eschews the sort of cliché you'd more often see.
One small thing - Rayna can't die. Just replace the burnt out fuse and microchip and she'll be back to where she was, so do a chkdsk and clean up those last few minutes of corrupted data or she'll go into a logic loop. Usually, Kirk nags computers to self-destruct but never loves 'em to death!! Indeed, his passionate demand of "Childhood must end, love me!!" (which borders irony of another sort) really shows how smitten Kirk had become, which ties into McCoy's speech at the end. Needed, because otherwise Kirk's passion would be narratively hollow.
As with so much of this story, even the idea of doing it with a robot would come across juvenile or silly. This story makes it possible to really believe the situation, which is the most bizarre element of them all.
Flint using Kirk to train her to have emotions like love is really... nasty. McCoy rightly snaps over the nastiness Flint was to do on them even though they are far removed from the humanity Flint knew of centuries prior. Again, this episode's script is fantastic where it needs to be. Especially as the crux of the story is Flint using Kirk to make a... sex doll that's more lifelike than anything ever seen before. The episode is an interesting statement on loneliness on top of everything else. And so maturely handled.
That said, how come M4's phaser deactivation field is arbitrary as the weapons are useless at the start of the episode but Spock fires without a concern? (Power saving mode, perhaps, to use it only when there's threat and Kirk would have triggered it. Spock was... just out of range, it seems, and M4 was close to our trio at the start.)
The ending is a little tidy as Spock has a newfound ability to make people forget things, but McCoy getting to say how Flint - removed from Earth - is now slowly aging. Sorta like a reverse Superman, where Jor El comes to Earth and becomes powerful, but if that was a form of inspiration, it sure as heck wasn't noticed.
Rayna surely was an influence for Lal (from "The Offspring" (TNG).)
The story's plot was thin, but the mature and visceral flavor of the episode, and phenomenal acting definitely, make up for any shortcomings, noting that it's borderline plot magic that Flint can miniaturize the whole ship and crew, to freeze them for a couple thousand years, but he is one paranoid dude - it's a subtle undercurrent running throughout and intelligently applied in script. So much of this episode hits the spot.
Fred Freiberger shook up TOS's format, certainly. Clunkers did exist, but this episode is nothing of the sort.
9.5/10
I just assumed that Kirk was coming down with the plague that was burning through the Enterprise and thus wasn't thinking straight
It's very possible, especially as the script doesn't fully describe the effects of the plague.
No more stupid than the City at the Edge of Forever where he knows Edith Keeler must die?
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