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Spoilers Star Trek: Strange New Worlds - Pike series and novel continuity

I can't believe I forgot to mention it in this thread months ago; episode 2.05 finally brought T'Khut, sister planet of Vulcan, to canon! What a wonderful tribute by Timothy Peel to D.C. Fontana and Diane Duane's works.

Huh? T'Khut (originally spelled "T'Kuht") was introduced in The Vulcan Academy Murders by Jean Lorrah. Duane got it from there (and changed the spelling). I don't think Fontana had anything to do with it, unless you're counting "Yesteryear" putting a large moon in Vulcan's sky 6 years before TMP did (a decision probably made by the background artist and director rather than Fontana).
 
Well, when my wi-fi was out last week, I passed some of the time by reviewing a few of my Trek novels and checking how much of them was still reconcilable with canon in light of SNW.

A fair amount of The Captain's Oath has been contradicted already. I established that Kirk didn't meet Pike, Spock, or Uhura before taking command of the Enterprise. I clearly referred to the Farragut as a Constitution-class ship and said that most of Kirk's formative years in Starfleet had been in service aboard ships of that class. I implied that Dr. Boyce had retired not long before Pike turned over command to Kirk. Maybe one or two other details. Maybe you could gloss over those bits and assume the rest still works, although SNW's time frame is only a couple of years shy of overlapping with the book, so I expect more contradictions to accumulate.

Christopher--I don't care how much the TV programs contradict your books, I love them (and many of the books anyway). I'm with Nimoy on this one: canon doesn't matter so much to me. When I'm reading a book, that's what Star Trek is offering me today. I can either go with it and enjoy it or spend the whole time complaining about how it doesn't fit canon.

But I have to shamefully (?) admit I have not yet seen an episode of Discovery or Strange New Worlds (I haven't been brave enough to watch it). I know it's weird. I love TOS too much, I guess.
 
Huh? T'Khut (originally spelled "T'Kuht") was introduced in The Vulcan Academy Murders by Jean Lorrah. Duane got it from there (and changed the spelling). I don't think Fontana had anything to do with it, unless you're counting "Yesteryear" putting a large moon in Vulcan's sky 6 years before TMP did (a decision probably made by the background artist and director rather than Fontana).
There was a fanzine publisher in the 70's called T'Khutian Press, I'm guessing Jean Lorrah (who wrote Trek fanfic as well as pro) was referencing that.
 
Christopher--I don't care how much the TV programs contradict your books, I love them (and many of the books anyway). I'm with Nimoy on this one: canon doesn't matter so much to me. When I'm reading a book, that's what Star Trek is offering me today. I can either go with it and enjoy it or spend the whole time complaining about how it doesn't fit canon.

Thank you, but there's no need to say this. None of this is a value judgment. There's no "right" or "wrong" when comparing different works of make-believe; this is just an exploration of how their creators imagine things differently. Trek tie-in writers have always interpreted the same characters, species, and events in multiple contradictory ways; historically, that's more the norm than the exception. For instance, The Captain's Oath was at least the fourth distinct version of how Kirk took command of the Enterprise, after the Gold Key comics version, the first annual of DC's TOS Volume 1, and Enterprise: The First Adventure. And my version of the end of the 5-year mission in Forgotten History was at least the seventh, I think, and there have been a couple more since.

Exploring variations on a common theme is one of the most fundamental elements of art, a way for individual creators to express their own styles and visions as distinct from one another. Discussing the differences between different interpretations is not a controversy or a question of right or wrong, it's simply an exploration of how different artists imagine things differently. As Trek teaches us, diversity is a thing to celebrate, not be troubled by.
 
According to Fanlore, "T'Khut" was coined by fan publisher/artist/editor/etc. Gordon Carleton. Vulcan's sibling planet/planetoid (definitely NOT a moon!) was unnamed in "Yesteryear" and TMP. Duane, Fontana and other pro Star Trek writers got the name from fandom.
 
There was a fanzine publisher in the 70's called T'Khutian Press, I'm guessing Jean Lorrah (who wrote Trek fanfic as well as pro) was referencing that.

According to Fanlore, "T'Khut" was coined by fan publisher/artist/editor/etc. Gordon Carleton. Vulcan's sibling planet/planetoid (definitely NOT a moon!) was unnamed in "Yesteryear" and TMP. Duane, Fontana and other pro Star Trek writers got the name from fandom.
I guess I should reword my statement more precisely (after some more research).

According to Memory Alpha, D.C. Fontana proposed the binary planet idea because she and Gene Roddenberry were unable to get Vulcan animated with a moonless sky in "Yesteryear" in 1973. It seems that Gordon Carleton coined 'T'Kuht' in developing Fontana's concept for a 1975 fanzine preceding the co-founding of T'Kuhtian Press in 1977 alongside his wife Lori Chapek-Carleton. T'Kuht was picked up by The Vulcan Academy Murders by Jean Lorrah, to be eventually respelled 'T'Khut' by Diane Duane in 1988.

http://www.mediawestcon.org/tkuhtian.htm
 
I've always found it ironic that visual artists in film, TV, novel covers, comics, etc. are so enamored of depicting alien worlds with gigantic moons in their skies. Why? Because Earth's moon is the largest one in the Solar system relative to its primary, large enough that it could arguably be considered a companion planet in its own right. Aliens coming to Earth would probably look up in the sky and be amazed by how big our Moon is.
 
T'Kuht was picked up by The Vulcan Academy Murders by Jean Lorrah, to be eventually respelled 'T'Khut' by Diane Duane in 1988.
Which is of course purely a matter of Romanized orthography, as meaningless as keeping Ford's "Klingonaase," but changing the Romanized spelling to conform to Okrand's orthography (can somebody remind me what TrekLit opus that happened in?).
 
So do the original and Okrandized spellings of "Klingonaase." And to a hypothetical native Vulcan speaker, "T'Kuht" and "T'Khut" would either be equally correct (possibly owing to a regional difference in accents) or equally wrong (the native pronunciation being impossible to accurately Romanize).

I'm sure that many here are already aware that I spend my Saturdays docenting at the International Printing Museum. The Linotype machine was invented by a German immigrant watchmaker named Ottmar Mergenthaler. There is no "þ" phoneme ("soft-th") in High German; the "h" is, for a native English speaker's purposes, silent. I'm the only one in the whole Museum who consistently pronounces "Mergenthaler" correctly (clue: "Neanderthal" has the same problem for native English speakers who haven't taken German).
 
So do the original and Okrandized spellings of "Klingonaase."

Yes, which is the point. In neither case is it "purely" a matter of orthography, because in both cases the change in spelling would change the pronunciation as well.

Also, Okrand's explicit intent was that "Klingon" was an in-universe anglicized approximation of tlhIngan. T'Kuht/T'Khut is different, since it's probably just a case of Duane misremembering the previous spelling, or deciding her version looked better. She wasn't suggesting it was an alternate spelling; it was the spelling in her version of the universe, as distinct from Jean Lorrah's version.

(Then you have A. C. Crispin in Sarek calling it T'Rukh but mentioning that it had several different names, which I take as an oblique reference to the other names it's been given in various works.)


And to a hypothetical native Vulcan speaker, "T'Kuht" and "T'Khut" would either be equally correct (possibly owing to a regional difference in accents) or equally wrong (the native pronunciation being impossible to accurately Romanize).

Not necessarily; it could be that one is simply a typo, like the tendency of Americans to misspell "Gandhi" as "Ghandi," because they're unaware that the H isn't silent.

(I was just thinking earlier about how Japanese speakers must wince when they hear English speakers pronounce Tokyo as "To-ki-o" when it's actually To-o-kyo. I realized that was probably what the Sentai series Carranger was parodying when it had all aliens mispronounce "Chikyuu" (Earth) as "Chiikyu," doubling the length of the wrong vowel.)


(clue: "Neanderthal" has the same problem for native English speakers who haven't taken German).

I've sometimes seen it spelled "Neandertal" to clarify the pronunciation.
 
The Klingon language was referred to as "Klingonese" on screen before any Star Trek novel of any kind was ever published, in "The Trouble with Tribbles."
 
Yes, and Ford claimed that was a human mispronunciation of Klingonaase. Of course, why Korax would be mispronouncing it like a Human . . . maybe a universal translator error?
 
Of course, why Korax would be mispronouncing it like a Human . . . maybe a universal translator error?

If he's speaking English, he'd use the English word for the language. If he's being translated into English, the translator would use the English word for the language. It's not a "mispronunciation," it's a translation, because "-ese" is an English suffix to denote a language. A native speaker of Japanese speaking English would refer to their language as "Japanese" instead of "Nihongo," because that's the correct English word for it.

Ford asserted that the Klingonese suffix denoting language was "-aase," coincidentally resembling the English suffix; by contrast, Okrand posited that Klingons don't use a suffix but the standalone word Hol. But in both cases, the English word for the language is "Klingonese."
 
Ford asserted that the Klingonese suffix denoting language was "-aase"

Sort of.

Klingonaase is said to be - and I'm paraphrasing - "the tool for the manipulation of the klin principle", whatever that means.

It's also supposedly inaccurate and lazy to simply take a race name, slap the "ese" suffix on it, and call that the language. (That's what Dr. Emanuel Tagore says, anyway.)
 
hough, the last couple of times I saw either version of the episode, I couldn’t hear the “s” at all and it sounded like he was saying “Klingonii.”
. . . because Pataki, channeling his inner totally bombed Korax, slurred it into a drunken laugh. Which led to all manner of inaccurate magazine articles.

And yes, @Dr. San Guinary, that's exactly what Ford had, both places; I was oversimplifying.
 
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