Not blind. We all just observe our world differently, doesn't have to be good or bad.
"Star Trek: Picard" Scores at Saturn Awards!
- Thread starter Danja
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Not blind. We all just observe our world differently, doesn't have to be good or bad.
I think PIC Season 1 and PIC Season 3 were two different approaches on how to continue Picard's story. I also think TMP and TWOK were two different approaches on how to follow-up on TOS. And guess what? I like all of them for different reasons.
But the main difference between PIC S1 and PIC S3 was that S1 only really continued Picard's story mainly. While S3 continued TNG as a whole. S1 was at the pool and dipped back into TNG/DS9/VOY with one toe to test the water. S3 jumped all the way back in.
But the main difference between PIC S1 and PIC S3 was that S1 only really continued Picard's story mainly. While S3 continued TNG as a whole. S1 was at the pool and dipped back into TNG/DS9/VOY with one toe to test the water. S3 jumped all the way back in.
Fascinating.
I confess I've never watched Breaking Bad, but I'm under the impression that Mad Men was much more episodic than most modern streaming serialized shows (which are so heavily serialized that it can be hard for individual episodes to stand out as distinct from others).
See, I disagree here.
The Picard we meet at the start of PIC S1 is in a terrible state of mind precisely because he has been wallowing in the past and refusing to live in the present. He has, in his own words, been waiting to die rather than living. It is only by letting go of the past that he is actually able to come to terms with the traumas he experienced in the 2380s (and Data's death in 2379), and thereby lead the Federation to redemption.
So for Picard to all but turn to the camera and say, "The past mattered, goddamnit!"? Then PIC S3 as a narrative is essentially endorsing the same self-destructive wallowing that PIC S1 depicted as something Picard needed to move beyond.
The problem with this framing is that fascism almost always uses nostalgia for the past, for a lost "golden age" for the in-group it venerates (a "golden age" which of course never actually existed) to rationalize its political program of violence and authoritarianism.
I mean, it's right there in the name: "Make America Great Again." It wallows in an imagined past rather than embracing the future.
Now, to be clear, I am not saying that PIC S3 is Trumpist propaganda. Nor am I saying that nostalgia automatically leads to fascism. But I do think that an unhealthy fixation on the past is something that can combine with other unhealthy mindsets to lead someone down the path of fascism.
Sure, and if "the past matters" were as far as it goes, that would be fine. PIC S1 in fact gets the balance correct -- the past matters and we need to remember it, but also we can't wallow in our past. Picard in "Remembrance" has spent 15 years wallowing in Starfleet's mistakes and in his own mistakes instead of actually living his life. Once he starts living again, he is able to come to terms with his past, take responsibility for his mistakes, and lead the Federation into redemption.
Again, it's the way PIC S3 is so fixated on trying to recapture bygone glory days. It's the way PIC as a narrative abandoned almost all of the new relationships in Picard's life in S1 and S2 in order to make room for the TNG cast. It's the way the season codes younger generations in a negative light. From the moment a bartender whom the narrative wants us to think is obnoxious calls the Enterprise-D model fat, to Shaw being coded by the narrative as an asshole for not wanting to let Picard and Riker give him false orders, to the way the Titan's doctor is portrayed as an incompetent jerk who underestimates Beverly, to the way Jack is kind of an asshole, to the way the younger generation all become brainwashed zombies at the end -- and then it caps it all off with, "The past mattered." Well no shit the past mattered, but you can say the past mattered without painting the present as awful.
Sure, but the problem is that you can do a stealth remake with new characters when you're doing the first entry of a new story. But both The Rise of Skywalker and PIC S3 were very self-consciously the end of their new stories, and PIC S3's decision to abandon the darker, more cerebral themes and characters of PIC S1 that made it so unique to the ST franchise had a definite parallel to TROS's undermining of the themes and plot developments of The Last Jedi.
I'm a fan of both Mad Men and Breaking Bad (as well as its spinoff Better Call Saul).
Mad Men had broad season-long arcs but each episode had its own story with its own beginning, middle, and end, that advanced the arc of the season. The season also had an arc with its own beginning, middle, and end on a larger scale that would advance the entire series through its story. The show was working on different levels at the same time.
Breaking Bad and Better Call Saul had one episode lead into another lead into another. No end until the series ends. At the end of the season, there would be a huge page-turners that would make you want to watch the next episode right away. Great for binging the entire series after the fact, excruciating while waiting between seasons as they were airing.
I think Better Call Saul is the best prequel ever made. As you know, I usually don't do prequels (early-DSC and the film Prometheus are the only other exceptions), but BCS is a master-class on how to do it, and I actually like it better than Breaking Bad. Much like I think '00s Battlestar Galactica is a master-class on how to do a reboot.
EDITED TO ADD: I don't know how much you'd like Breaking Bad. Only because, based on our past interactions, you don't strike me as someone interested in watching a show about bad guys versus worse guys fighting it out in a drug war, with the protagonist becoming worse and worse over time, and seeing how that effects things around him.
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Please bear in mind I like Picard Season 1 and Season 3 equally, before you respond.
Relative to Picard and Riker, I can see him being younger. But, I'm in my 40s, he's in his 50s, so he never registered to me while watching as "younger" because I don't normally think of 50-somethings as young.
I thought of him as "He's our Styles! He's our Estaban! All rolled into one!" That was my first impression. Then he became more than that. By the end of the season, I felt sad that they killed him off. Something I never would've thought I'd feel at the beginning. Which makes me interested to see how they'd bring him back if they do Legacy.
And you've been a manager in a theater. I have no idea if you still are, but I remember that you were. I have a hard time believing you never once thought "Those damn kids!" whether you had to deal with teenage employees who weren't doing their job (it's been known to happen in retail), or whether you had to deal with a loud, obnoxious crowd of kids in the theater, causing a ruckus. Said ruckus doesn't happen all the time, but I've seen it occasionally (including once last summer). You've thought that at least once. There's no way you haven't.
I also think it's unrealistic that so much of the Titan crew is under 25, but that's not something I'm going to beat up the season about. In fact, if anything, if the Enterprise-G crew is mostly under 25, then it means the crew of Legacy would be mostly under 25. And just to be totally clear, I like the crew from what I've seen of them.
In the Real World present, ask me about that in November, if you know what I mean. If Biden wins, I'll think the present could use some work but is still overall okay. If Trump wins, then I'll think the present is fucked up. There's no other way to say it than to say it.
I think the main difference between us is I didn't mind different approaches on how to follow-up stories. I went into PIC Season 3 knowing it would be 10 episodes, then it would be done. It's a reunion, I treated it as such. I went to my 20-year high school reunion in 2017 and treated it the same. It just didn't bother me the way it seems to bother you.
If, as @Citiprime said, PIC Season 3 had the entire TNG crew back together and on the Enterprise-D from the beginning, then I'd completely agree with you. But they didn't. It didn't happen until the end of Episode 9. There was enough difference between TNG and PIC Season 3 that I was fine with it. If it had been like The X-Files Seasons 10 and 11 (the two revival seasons in the 2010s) where Mulder and Scully were back at it again the entire time as if it was the '90s, then it probably would've lost me, just like the revived X-Files lost me. Over there, while I watched all of Season 10, I stopped watching early on in Season 11. I didn't really feel like I was missing anything. Then I read it ended on another stupid cliffhanger, so I decided not to even bother with the rest.
I would've liked to have seen Rios, Jurati, Elnor, and Soji continue on to Season 3, but it wasn't a deal-breaker. I figure they'll all pop up again somewhere.
If you want to talk about fixation, I think you're a little guilty of it yourself. I never gave the bartender a second thought until you just mentioned it.
I never thought Shaw was an asshole for that. I thought he was an asshole for not calling Seven by her preferred name. That bothers me more. Shaw's an asshole in general, but there are people who are assholes in general.
Relative to Picard and Riker, I can see him being younger. But, I'm in my 40s, he's in his 50s, so he never registered to me while watching as "younger" because I don't normally think of 50-somethings as young.
I thought of him as "He's our Styles! He's our Estaban! All rolled into one!" That was my first impression. Then he became more than that. By the end of the season, I felt sad that they killed him off. Something I never would've thought I'd feel at the beginning. Which makes me interested to see how they'd bring him back if they do Legacy.
This is more fixation on your part to build up a case. I thought about this for a grand-total of one scene. And that "conflict" only lasted for one scene. Beverly had been retired for 20 years. It's natural for the Titan CMO to wonder if Crusher knows how to use their equipment. Once it was clear she did, that was the end of any conflict.
Jack Crusher's not an asshole. He's a loveable rouge who gets a bit moody. Given his life circumstances, I don't blame him. I liked him from the first scene he was in.
If that's how they were in their normal state, I'd agree with you. But clearly the Borg had assimilated them. Could they have come up with a better way to do it? Sure. But it wasn't a deal-breaker. Not for me, anyway.
And you've been a manager in a theater. I have no idea if you still are, but I remember that you were. I have a hard time believing you never once thought "Those damn kids!" whether you had to deal with teenage employees who weren't doing their job (it's been known to happen in retail), or whether you had to deal with a loud, obnoxious crowd of kids in the theater, causing a ruckus. Said ruckus doesn't happen all the time, but I've seen it occasionally (including once last summer). You've thought that at least once. There's no way you haven't.
I also think it's unrealistic that so much of the Titan crew is under 25, but that's not something I'm going to beat up the season about. In fact, if anything, if the Enterprise-G crew is mostly under 25, then it means the crew of Legacy would be mostly under 25. And just to be totally clear, I like the crew from what I've seen of them.
Depends on the present. I think in PIC's present, 2401 doesn't look that bad. It's got some problems, but that's any time.
In the Real World present, ask me about that in November, if you know what I mean. If Biden wins, I'll think the present could use some work but is still overall okay. If Trump wins, then I'll think the present is fucked up. There's no other way to say it than to say it.
I've seen all the Sequel Trilogy films once, just like I've seen all the Star Wars films once. So, I'm not as familiar with them as most people here. But I remember liking all three of the Sequel Trilogy films about the same. They were okay. I do agree that the Sequel Trilogy of Star Wars is their equivalent of Picard.
I think the main difference between us is I didn't mind different approaches on how to follow-up stories. I went into PIC Season 3 knowing it would be 10 episodes, then it would be done. It's a reunion, I treated it as such. I went to my 20-year high school reunion in 2017 and treated it the same. It just didn't bother me the way it seems to bother you.
If, as @Citiprime said, PIC Season 3 had the entire TNG crew back together and on the Enterprise-D from the beginning, then I'd completely agree with you. But they didn't. It didn't happen until the end of Episode 9. There was enough difference between TNG and PIC Season 3 that I was fine with it. If it had been like The X-Files Seasons 10 and 11 (the two revival seasons in the 2010s) where Mulder and Scully were back at it again the entire time as if it was the '90s, then it probably would've lost me, just like the revived X-Files lost me. Over there, while I watched all of Season 10, I stopped watching early on in Season 11. I didn't really feel like I was missing anything. Then I read it ended on another stupid cliffhanger, so I decided not to even bother with the rest.
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Jack is sn asshole. He's s criminal with no consequence, and accepted without question.
It's s rough intro that gets slightly better towards the middle then falls off.
But, other than that, the Borg plot is better than First Contact since it can be reversed. So, the younger generation is not completely useless.
I have read a fair chunk of this thread, and I only have one thing to say.
I am happy that a STAR TREK series won so many awards in one sitting. That only helps the franchise, and I think the one thing we can all agree on is we want the franchise to continue. This helps it to do so.
For context on my thinking... I loved PICARD season 3. It had its flaws, but it worked well. But because of its first two seasons (particularly season 2), it ranks very low on the list of ST shows. (For me, only TAS and DISCO rank lower, and I put DISCO dead last.)
Having said that, given my feelings of DISCO... in a theoretical scenario, had DISCO won so many awards over another I love, like SNW, I would still applaud and be happy for it, because ANY series in the franchise getting that much love, accolades, and attention only helps the whole.
I have spoken.
I am happy that a STAR TREK series won so many awards in one sitting. That only helps the franchise, and I think the one thing we can all agree on is we want the franchise to continue. This helps it to do so.
For context on my thinking... I loved PICARD season 3. It had its flaws, but it worked well. But because of its first two seasons (particularly season 2), it ranks very low on the list of ST shows. (For me, only TAS and DISCO rank lower, and I put DISCO dead last.)
Having said that, given my feelings of DISCO... in a theoretical scenario, had DISCO won so many awards over another I love, like SNW, I would still applaud and be happy for it, because ANY series in the franchise getting that much love, accolades, and attention only helps the whole.
I have spoken.
It's not that it's a "deal-breaker," it's that it contributes to the creation of a subtext. In spite of my criticism, I did enjoy S3 for the most part. But enjoying something doesn't mean agreeing with its subtexts.
Oh c'mon Lord Garth. Don't make this personal.
Looking at small elements and seeing how they contribute to a larger thematic element is just a basic practice in textual criticism.
And yes, I do contend that that scene is there for a reason. It's there to get you feeling a little defensive of the memory of the Enterprise-D, and then that pays off at the end of the season when the Enterprise-D returns. But in doing so, it also contributes to a subtext of contempt for or superiority over characters who are from a younger generation.
Which also contributes to creating a subtext of contempt for or superiority over younger generations.
He's at least twenty years younger than Riker -- he's definitely from a younger generation than the TNG crew, and therefore is part of the cohort of characters PIC S3 codes as deserving to be seen as inferior by the audience.
First off, it's not just about the conflict between the characters; it's also about the way later episodes depict the Titan CMO as being less competent than Beverly.
Secondly, yeah, it would be natural for Dr. Ohk to wonder if Beverly is up-to-date, but there was no reason for the writers to frame that as a conflict. They could just as easily have written Ohk as asking Beverly respectfully how up-to-date her medical knowledge was. Writing Ohk as treating Beverly disrespectfully was a choice, and so was writing her as subsequently not being as competent as Beverly.
Again, the effect of this is that it contributes to a subtext of contempt for or superiority over younger generations.
He's a cheeky asshole who constantly fucks over other people and gets away with it by being charming.
Which, again, contributes to a subtext of contempt for or superiority over younger generations. When you have A, and B, and C, and D, then all that combines to create a subtext of E, even if no one of those elements would have led to E by themselves.
Seriously, dude, let's not make this personal. We're analyzing a text to see what subtexts it possesses, and looking at how smaller elements add up together to create a larger effect is a standard part of textual criticism.
This element also contributes to a subtext of contempt for or superiority over younger generations. The audience is definitely supposed to have a feeling of, "Oh crap, we're on a relatively weaker ship with an asshole captain and an inexperienced crew."
And I certainly hope that if Legacy gets made, having a younger supporting cast will force it to become less nostalgia-focused than its tentative name would imply.
I agree! But PIC S3 gives us a present day that seems pretty decent, and then spends the entire season telling us how much the younger generations suck and how much better things were back in the Good Old Days of the 2360s.
I mean, sure. But part of the danger of Trumpism is that Trump and his worshippers are fixated on wanting to re-create a mythical Good Old Days when the "right kinds of people" reigned supreme.
It didn't happen until Episode 9, but Episodes 1-8 spend a lot of time making you wistful for Picard's time on the Enterprise-D.
Listen, I think there would have been a way to hit a lot of the same beats PIC S3 hits without coming across as wallowing in the past. More consistently depicting younger characters as likable, competent, and trustworthy would have been a good start. Spending less time with younger characters insulting the TNG characters for how they behaved on TNG. Keeping the original PIC cast and letting them build relationships with the TNG characters. Not abandoning the primary setting of PIC, La Sirena, midway through the season with no explanation. Even keeping the "young generations get brainwashed into Borg" angle but putting more emphasis on the idea that those young people's futures are being stolen -- have a scene where Geordi and Jean-Luc lament that their children may never achieve their dreams, may never build a better future, may never get the chance to grow beyond their parents. Just add some scenes that give a feeling of optimism for the future instead of nostalgia for the past.
Edited to add: Heck, it would have gone a long way if they had just changed the Thesis Statement scene a bit. Instead of having Picard all but turn to the audience and say, "The past mattered," they could have had Picard say, "This ship was it. This ship was where we built the future. And we are so lucky that we get to see that future come to shape." Just change the line so that the closing scenes of the entire series are about happiness over what is to come instead of sadness over what is over. End edit.
PIC S3 wasn't a bad season. It mostly exercised its creative goals successfully. I'm not gonna pretend I didn't love seeing the band get back together.
But Getting The Band Back Together was the fundamental creative goal of the season, and worshiping the TNG characters at the cost of coding younger characters as inferior was a consistent subtext of the entire season.[/quote]
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I appreciate that. And I also want to say that even when we disagree, I respect you and enjoy your posts.
The key, key, key difference here is PS1's legacy body count was limited to minor recurring characters like Hugh and Icheb. By the time of TROS, Han and Luke had already been killed off, and Carrie Fisher had passed in real life. So it just wasn't possible to get the core original Star Wars cast back together at that point.
TROS also suffered from multiple course corrections and reshoots. If anything PS2 is the "TROS of PICARD".
PS3 is... the TNG films finally back on track decades later in a different format plus major time jump? Thankfully the entire cast was still working in real life, and all the characters still alive in universe (or brought back in a believable way).
At best... you can argue that PICARD is too guilty of the "film bloated into ten episodes" syndrome that also strikes some Star Wars and MCU projects on Disney+.
Elnor seemed to be effectively abandoned even in season 1. Maybe the actor just couldn't handle the role? In hindsight they really should have had Zhabin die on screen in 103 and then have Laris tag along.
Good lord was that a wasted opportunity. They could have had Mulder and Scully back with a much better plan that could then pass off to "the next generation". Chris Carter really was a one trick pony that kept blowing chance after chance...
I'm not talking about the return of legacy characters per se when I say PIC S3 is to PIC S1 as The Rise of Skywalker is to The Last Jedi. I'm referring to the way The Last Jedi and PIC S1 are both very moody, cerebral texts that challenge and interrogate their franchise and its previous installments, are both works that are a bit deconstructionist and try to add more depth and nuance to their franchises' lore. And I'm referring to the way both The Rise of Skywalker and PIC S3 are nostalgia-obsessed works that are less willing to challenge their respective franchises and actively try to backpeddle into mere escapism.
Both also undo really important choices that their prior installments made: TRoS contradicts TLJ's reveal that Rey is not from an influential family by establishing that she is a Palpatine, while PIC S3 brings Data back from the dead (again) instead of letting him have the final death that PIC S1 rightfully recognized was thematically important to bring closure to both Data and Picard's character arc. (The comparison here is, again, on the decision to contradict an emotionally painful but thematically important choice the prior installment had made, rather than on the particulars of what that decision is.)
Yeah, that comparison is also valid.
The resurrection of Data was in no way believable. And it was also a bad decision for pissing all over the beautiful death scene we got in S1.
I think the problem is that the writers never really sat down to figure out who Elnor is and what he wants outside of the context of his first episode.
That could have worked well. But I think I would have liked seeing Zhabon and Laris together as an adventuring team of married Romulans working for Picard. That would have let us side-step the uncomfortable question of, "Wait, does that mean Jean-Luc dumped Laris five minutes after hooking up with her to get with Beverly?" at the end of S3.
I'm sure there would've been more people over 25 had they (1) not been killed in the Frontier Day attack and/or (2) taken aboard the Intrepid.
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Since this seems to be in response to my post, let me clarify that I'm on 'your side' of this debate and I don't have pearls to clutch ,)
Apologies for any confusion, it was very much intended to be a tongue in cheek post "aimed at the imaginary audience", not anyone in particular. Unfortunately my favorite and most used emoji, laughing and crying, isn't available here.
In the Inhuman, Lyotard thinks the event not through the phrase “What is happening”, which presumes that all one has to do is await a form of information, as one does when watching television news. Rather the event arrives through a questioning, specifically the question “is it happening” (“arrive-t-il?”), which opens up the possibility that “nothing might happen”. This is the terror and pleasure found in Immanuel Kant’s account of the sublime in The Critique of Judgment, wherein one experiences a feeling that explodes one’s capacities for imagination and causes both pleasure and displeasure at once.
So…. this seems to have become a charged thing — I adored Season 3 of Picard, it was just my style and preference of Trek, and because I’m huge fan of 12 Monkeys and appreciate the pacing and its one of the things I appreciate Terry and his team brought to season 3.
Coming from a small fandom of 12 Monkeys, I’m baffled at this constant call of cult of Terry- but I guess things that work for a small fandom hit different for a bigger one.
Again, I just want to end to congratulate the crew for winning the awards.
Coming from a small fandom of 12 Monkeys, I’m baffled at this constant call of cult of Terry- but I guess things that work for a small fandom hit different for a bigger one.
Again, I just want to end to congratulate the crew for winning the awards.
