Star Trek Picard is not Star Trek

[Lord Garth]

It does if he’s famous as Lincoln and the commandos are from a people renowned as masters of espionage, people who he was going to be “ass deep in for the rest of [his] life.” Picard literally saved the entire human race. Multiple times. How many times during the various series does the crew have to contend with entertaining an open mind because of the nature of the world they live in? Inane vloggers and pundits might have balked at the idea of Picard on mission after criticizing Starfleet, but Starfleet should have had a thicker skin.

"Starfleet likes team players, Starfleet likes the chain of command, and so do I." -- Sisko, "The Search, Part I" (DS9)

Try to look at it from their point of view: By speaking out against Starfleet like he did, Picard showed he's not a "team player". By presenting a mission to Clancy and asking to be put in charge of it and saying he'll take a demotion (you're not Kirk!) and being shocked that Clancy didn't say "yes" to it, he makes it look like he doesn't "like the chain of command". Finally, by threatening to resign 14 years earlier and following through with it when they called his bluff, he showed to them he thinks it's his way or the highway. Starfleet doesn't want someone who won't stick to the script.

"But what about Kirk?!" Kirk never publicly bashed Starfleet. Kirk never said "Do this or I'll resign!" Kirk wasn't a team player in TSFS but they couldn't imprison him or get rid of him in TVH after he just saved Earth and the Ambassador of Vulcan was batting for him. So, due to PR and political pressure, "because of certain mitigating circumstances", they demoted Kirk to Captain (to show that technically they took action against him for disobeying orders) and put him in command of the Enterprise-A where Starfleet knew he would be happy in his position and thus more likely to be a team player. But Kirk was still in Starfleet when he was demoted to Captain.

Picard wasn't even in Starfleet anymore when he went to Clancy and asked to be reinstated with a demotion to Captain to lead the mission. And the planet Picard saved at the end of the season isn't Earth, so John Q Public in the Federation isn't going to care as much about it. And Starfleet probably spun it so that Captain Riker and the Fleet saved the day. They let Picard take credit for "Fighting for Synth Rights", which is probably still controversial among the more conservative members of the Federation. I'm guessing the 2399 Federation is as polarized as the 2020 United States if they want to make it "more like today". So, even if Synths are no longer banned, he'll still face prejudice. "You're not the real Picard!"

After Kirk saved Earth, it was "Kirk's saved Earth twice now! Go Kirk!" Twice because the first time was TMP. Picard saved Earth too, from the Borg. But the question became "What have you done for me lately?" And lately Picard's actions and motivations haven't been in alignment with Starfleet Command's. If anything, they'll go through Riker. Clancy will tell Riker, "You fucking deal with Jean-Luc! I'm assigning you to work with him. If he contacts me, I'm sending him to you. I have more important things to deal with. Keep him out of my hair!"

 

[Gonzo]

Personally I don't blame Picard for the interview, it was a blatant setup by the interviewer as it was agreed by both parties that he wouldn't answer questions about it beforehand.

 

[DarthTimon]

It does if he’s famous as Lincoln and the commandos are from a people renowned as masters of espionage, people who he was going to be “ass deep in for the rest of [his] life.” Picard literally saved the entire human race. Multiple times. How many times during the various series does the crew have to contend with entertaining an open mind because of the nature of the world they live in? Inane vloggers and pundits might have balked at the idea of Picard on mission after criticizing Starfleet, but Starfleet should have had a thicker skin.

No one's history automatically grants them the privelige of getting a free pass at being reinstated *and* given a ship, least of all if they've just finished tearing their ols employers a new one, and especially if they can't offer supporting evidence to justify why.

 

[fireproof78]

No one's history automatically grants them the privelige of getting a free pass at being reinstated *and* given a ship, least of all if they've just finished tearing their ols employers a new one, and especially if they can't offer supporting evidence to justify why.

Exactly. The idea that Picard gets carte blanche to be a jerk and Starfleet just has to take it is probably the most asinine expectation.

 

[Arpy]

No one's history automatically grants them the privelige of getting a free pass at being reinstated *and* given a ship, least of all if they've just finished tearing their ols employers a new one, and especially if they can't offer supporting evidence to justify why.

I somewhat agree. Again no black or white hats here, but her sheer fucking hubris was not to put feelings aside for the job. She gets points from me for at least asking Oh if she knew anything, but 1) it seemed way to flimsy and trusting an inquiry and 2) was Oh her mistake to ever let rise that high in Starfleet at all?

 

[The Wormhole]

She didnt even keep enough tabs to know about the attack on Picard's home apparently

Why would she? The attack on Picard's home falls under the jurisdiction of French civilian authorities, and the CinC of Starfleet has no reason or obligation or even right to be poking in their affairs. Isn't that like accusing the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of negligence just because he's unaware of a home burglary in Hawaii?

And unless they have amnesia, they should know from his reports that the last time Picard had a neurological disorder and wild claims he saved everyone from the anomaly.

You do remember that AGT ended in a reset button with all those events erased from the timeline, right? If there is any record of the events, Picard would have made it to Temporal Investigations who would have classified it high enough that even the Starfleet CinC wouldn't know about it. So, now we're accusing Starfleet of not making decisions based on alternate timelines that they can't possibly know about? We seem to be taking the pro-Picard, anti-Clancy stance to ridiculous standards here.

2) She was wrong not to push for helping the Romulans. It wouldn’t have been easy, but that’s the job. She did a fine job explaining her thinking, but she should have taken on that fight — surplus ships to save 900 Million People.

Clancy herself had nothing to do with the decision to abandon the Romulan evacuation efforts. If we take the tie-in novel into account, she was only a Captain at the time Picard resigned, meaning he in fact outranked her then. Granted, that's not evident in the show, though it isn't reasonable to assume she's spent fourteen years at least as Starfleet's CinC. Hell, very rarely do the top ranking officers in any military or highest ranked executives in any civilian organization or business stay in the position longer than five years usually because the position is too stressful to maintain on a constant basis, and the majority of the people who attain those positions are usually a handful of years away from retiring anyway.

But even if we want to entertain a hypothetical scenario where Clancy was in fact Starfleet's CinC at the time, the decision to abandon the Romulan evacuation efforts would not have been hers to make, but rather that of the Federation government, possibly even the President themself. And once that is done Clancy or whoever was the CinC had no choice but to implement it or resign in protest. And the thing about people in such a position resigning in protest is you're just leaving the door open for a successor to be chosen who will implement the orders anyway. Indeed, such an individual will be specifically sought out to be the replacement.

 

[fireproof78]

Why would she? The attack on Picard's home falls under the jurisdiction of French civilian authorities, and the CinC of Starfleet has no reason or obligation or even right to be poking in their affairs. Isn't that like accusing the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of negligence just because he's unaware of a home burglary in Hawaii?

That asshole never even called me back...

So, now we're accusing Starfleet of not making decisions based on alternate timelines that they can't possibly know about? We seem to be taking the pro-Picard, anti-Clancy stance to ridiculous standards here.

That does appear to be the standard. Clancy is wrong and Starfleet is wrong and Picard can do no wrong. That is ten levels of BS.

 

[Nerys Myk]

The man is important

For some reason I heard that in the Companion's voice.

 

[Makarov]

You do remember that AGT ended in a reset button with all those events erased from the timeline, right? If there is any record of the events, Picard would have made it to Temporal Investigations who would have classified it high enough that even the Starfleet CinC wouldn't know about it.

It wasn't a secret. At the end of AGT he decided he didnt care about the ramifications and told them everything.

Clancy herself had nothing to do with the decision to abandon the Romulan evacuation efforts. If we take the tie-in novel into account...

In the novel, she didnt want a large scale Romulan rescue in the first place before Picard had even started.

 

[fireproof78]

It wasn't a secret. At the end of AGT he decided he didnt care about the ramifications and told them everything.

So, telling his shipmates is the same as telling Starfleet Command? I feel like that's a stretch.

 

[The Wormhole]

It wasn't a secret. At the end of AGT he decided he didnt care about the ramifications and told them everything.

We know he told the others on the senior staff, about what happened to them in the future, but we don't know if he told them anything about the anomaly or the threat to existence itself. And as already indicated above, that doesn't mean he made an official report about the matter, and if he did, it would have been to Temporal Investigations, not to Starfleet Command. And if such a report were made to the DTI, it would have been classified and no one from Starfleet would be able to see it.

In the novel, she didnt want a large scale Romulan rescue in the first place before Picard had even started

Be that as it may, it doesn't change the fact that she was too low in the command hierarchy at the time to have a say in the matter, or that such a decision is made by the Federation government President, not a Starfleet officer.

 

[Arpy]

Be that as it may, it doesn't change the fact that she was too low in the command hierarchy at the time to have a say in the matter, or that such a decision is made by the Federation government President, not a Starfleet officer.

But she's arguing for it now? She's arguing Starfleet's position? "Because it was no longer Starfleet" or whatever the line was. The point is that Starfleet then and Clancy then and/or now held the position. Did they follow civilian orders? Sure, ones Starfleet and Starfleet Intelligence influenced. It wasn't only Clancy or Oh or brass. The dishonor rippled throughout Starfleet and the Federation far enough to damn the Romulans, regardless who was against that loss.

 

[DarthTimon]

I somewhat agree. Again no black or white hats here, but her sheer fucking hubris was not to put feelings aside for the job. She gets points from me for at least asking Oh if she knew anything, but 1) it seemed way to flimsy and trusting an inquiry and 2) was Oh her mistake to ever let rise that high in Starfleet at all?

Clancy did her job to the degree it needed to be done. Despite a lack of any evidence for Picard's claims, she took his concerns to the head of Starfleet Security. She wasn't to know Oh was a spy, that's the whole point of being an effective agent, and did everything she was reasonably required to under the circumstances.

 

[Agony_Boothb]

I somewhat agree. Again no black or white hats here, but her sheer fucking hubris was not to put feelings aside for the job. She gets points from me for at least asking Oh if she knew anything, but 1) it seemed way to flimsy and trusting an inquiry and 2) was Oh her mistake to ever let rise that high in Starfleet at all?

Picard didn't put his feelings aside when he arrogantly threatened Starfleet with his resignation when they wouldn't follow the policy he wanted. He was so full of himself that he thought Starfleet would bend the knee and enforce a policy that risked destabilising the federation. Nor was he unemotional when he criticised Starfleet and the federation on 24th century TV. Clancy was right to tell picard to fuck himself

 

[Arpy]

Picard didn't put his feelings aside when he arrogantly threatened Starfleet with his resignation when they wouldn't follow the policy he wanted. He was so full of himself that he thought Starfleet would bend the knee and enforce a policy that risked destabilising the federation. Nor was he unemotional when he criticised Starfleet and the federation on 24th century TV. Clancy was right to tell picard to fuck himself

Where you see arrogance I see desperation. It was all he had left. And, having saved the entire human race and Federation on more than one occasion, and all advanced biological life in the galaxy in this series, credit where due.

If Starfleet can’t take criticism for abandoning 900 Million People to their deaths, they can fuck off.

 

[fireproof78]

His arrogance is not just in his asking but also in his resignation in the first place.

He may have been right about saving people (though, Starfleet's record is surprisingly gray on this issue) but his whole approach was completely unprofessional. He was not willing to be even a little be compromising in terms of his demands. He just assumed Starfleet would kowtow-arrogant.

 

[cooleddie74]

"I'm the great Jean-Luc Picard! I've saved the Federation itself and more than once!"

"And?"

 

[fireproof78]

"Do what I say and damn the consequences" is not a convincing argument.

Sorry, Jean-Luc.

 

[Arpy]

"I'm the great Jean-Luc Picard! I've saved the Federation itself and more than once!"

"And?"

And despite getting “And?” from Starfleet, he went on to save all advanced biological life in the galaxy. By arguing that we’re all in this together.

 

[Makarov]

What do you even suggest Picard do other than resign? Carry out the order to let them all die? There's so much arguing against the guy trying to do the right thing, and FOR the character that wanted to let them all die.

Defending the federation for the synth ban and letting romulans die and then criticizing Picard? Might as well be defending the admiral from insurrection, Maddox dismantling Data, or Pressman making his best judgement to develop cloaking tech.

I get it everyone got a kick out of Clancy dropping the F on Picard even me, but what's wrong with liking a bad guy character and admitting that they are bad?