Spoilers Star Trek: Picard General Discussion Thread

[Commander Troi]

This is a fan edit someone did of 10 minutes from Nemesis with the Riker/Troi wedding (and deleted portions added in) followed by a scene that was cut entirely with Picard and Data talking about both the passage of time and the future. Forget the rest of the movie. These 10 minutes here feel very much like a prequel to Picard, especially Season 3.

I think the timing works well to post this since everyone's back now.

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That was a beautiful scene! And you're right, a perfect prequel to the themes of PIC.

I will never not laugh at "Irving Berlin." THUD

This cuts closer to home for me personally because I work with kids who sometimes feel violence is the only answer. They feel they have no other choice to be heard. Telling them that things will become better is a hollow platitude. Acknowledging the emotion and creating choice, even if it is just as simple as reaching out to myself, or another mental health professional, a peer, or someone, as long as they have choice makes violence less likely. It makes community more likely. It builds honesty, acceptance and cooperation, rather than isolation and being told "You're not good enough to be in this group. You're not smart enough, clean enough, healthy enough. You don't belong in utopia."

We need the ideal, but more than that we need people who are wiling to say "You're accepted here, warts and all. Pain and all. " Don't tell me about utopia; tell me how I can live with myself today. Will you take my hand?

Yes. Thank you. You made me cry.

This is how we build a future worth leaving behind: one heart, one hand, one life at a time.

The older I get, the more I (sadly) realize I can't save the world. But I can be kind, right here, right now. I can be accepting. I can be loving. Utopia is built in every moment.

 

[Unicron]

Romulans had infiltrated the Federation before with a Vulcan Ambassador of all things. So, yeah, I don't see this as a stretch.

The FASA Trekverse had the intelligence arms of all the major powers doing reconnaissance and espionage regularly, with varying degrees of success. Starfleet Intelligence had two programs for collecting data on the Klingon and Romulan fleets (Operation Dixie and Operation Gray Ghost, respectively), but a Klingon mole practically ruined much of Dixie and almost killed off all of the agents. And on one occasion, the Orions managed to penetrate Memory Alpha and steal an ancient Romulan prototype battleship from the war, which Starfleet had captured and stored before the Romulans could put it into service. It was mothballed at MA in the belief that one day its offensive power might be needed and Starfleet could make use of it. The Orions want to sell it on the galactic black market, and the players have to reclaim or destroy it before that happens.

 

[SJGardner]

This is how we build a future worth leaving behind: one heart, one hand, one life at a time.

The older I get, the more I (sadly) realize I can't save the world. But I can be kind, right here, right now. I can be accepting. I can be loving. Utopia is built in every moment.

100%. And in a world where the people in power are taking every opportunity to make life for people like me more difficult every day and people filled with hatred feel more empowered than ever to shout their hatred into the open with impunity, I myself have come to realize that I can't just excise myself from the world and wait for this rotten system to right itself. I need to live and I need to live every single day, and nothing helps me go through it as much as the individual kindness of people who make me feel accepted, seen and heard. And likewise, I need to become that bringer of individual kindness for other people who need it themselves. When one lives in a part of the world where the system itself doesn't recognize their truth, nothing is more important than the people around them giving that acceptance.

 

[thribs]

How can she be a Commodore, she never went to Starfleet Academy.

Depends if Bajor joined Starfleet and their militia was combined with Starfleet. She would get the equivalent rank.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Depends if Bajor joined Starfleet and their militia was combined with Starfleet. She would get the equivalent rank.

The wink is there for a reason.

 

[Agony_Boothb]

SPOILERS

There's a very strong dystopian theme running through all the modern Trek, with multiple plots involving infiltration, destabilisation, corruption, and factionalism within the Federation or, more specifically, Starfleet.

I have also noticed that the returning characters are also more narrow minded selfish and self-interested, concerned with protecting their own families above all else. Rafi's decision to place duty above self-interest is portrayed as stark and binary - she cannot support her family by doing her duty. Riker has similarly abandoned his family to (selfishly since he is running away) perform his duty.

The idealism of Roddenberry's left wing utopia has been deconstructed to a large degree. Even in a post scarcity society there is poverty, medical and mental health rationing, judgemental attitudes to mental health, and hoarding of technology.

It seems to me that the only currencies worth a damn should be knowledge and energy production. Why write the show in a way that involves hoarding so much more?

What possessed the writers to steer so far away from Roddenberry's vision? Was it just for the drama and they had no concept of what they were dismantling? Is it just reflective of how disgusting the human race is becoming but if so, surely we need the utopian ideal even more?

Suddenly Worf's laissez-faire approach to parenting is looking more and more the way to go but I am hoping that Troi is going to turn out as the blunt bad ass she should always have been to talk some sense to everyone and school the bad guys in why they should not mess with a daughter of the Fifth House, and heir to the sacred Chalice of Riix.

Nothing you have described here is remotely dystopian. Please look the word up and understand it's meaning yourself instead of parroting how it's used by The Fandom Menace.

The deconstruction of Roddenberry's utopian ideals began in TNG and cemented itself in DS9. Take off those rose tinted glasses,

 

[Racefuel]

Nothing you have described here is remotely dystopian. Please look the word up and understand it's meaning yourself instead of parroting how it's used by The Fandom Menace.

The deconstruction of Roddenberry's utopian ideals began in TNG and cemented itself in DS9. Take off those rose tinted glasses,

This, 100%.

Humans still being human, and exploring the human condition, is what made Star Trek ...Star Trek. Roddenberry's idea of a world without conflict and how there had to be no conflict between the crew is what lead to the excessively bland stories early on in TNG. Conflict is the seeds of drama and to pretend that humans wouldn't have conflict means they're no longer human.

Roddenberry had a lot of good ideas, and a lot of really unrealistic ones. What is funny is that for all his 24th century no conflict peace love joy ideas..he was a raging misogynist IRL and had some really dark corners.

 

[SJGardner]

Roddenberry had a lot of good ideas, a lot of really unrealistic ones. What is funny is that for all his 24th century no conflict peace love joy ideas..he was a raging misogynist IRL and had some really dark corners.

I recall a comment I've read a few years ago (I kind of remembered seeing it on here, but the only place I could find it now is under a reddit post lampooning the tendency of incels to call women 'females', where the inevitable comparison to the Ferengi came up at some point, with someone mentioning how Gene originally wanted to give them huge penises) about how Gene was sex-positive in a very old-fashioned and misogynistic way, which basically summed up his ideas for his utopian free-love future as:

1. Everyone should be having more sex.
1a. Specifically, they should be having more sex with me, Gene Roddenberry.

 

[Agony_Boothb]

This, 100%.

Humans still being human, and exploring the human condition, is what made Star Trek ...Star Trek. Roddenberry's idea of a world without conflict and how there had to be no conflict between the crew is what lead to the excessively bland stories early on in TNG. Conflict is the seeds of drama and to pretend that humans wouldn't have conflict means they're no longer human.

Roddenberry had a lot of good ideas, a lot of really unrealistic ones. What is funny is that for all his 24th century no conflict peace love joy ideas..he was a raging misogynist IRL and had some really dark corners.

Yeah 24th Century Humans had apparently risen above the petty conflicts of 20th and 21st century humans, yet he couldn't rise above his own petty needs to cheat on his wife repeatedly, lust after money and engage in rampant drug and alcohol abuse. People lift him up in this cult-like fashion as if he is some sage, saintly, guru when in fact he embodied some of humanities worst traits. Fans frequently ignore what a massive hypocrite Roddenberry was and how many of the best aspects of the franchise didn't even come from him. I respect Roddenberry for creating Star Trek, but i refuse to use 'Roddenberry's vision' as a barometer for what good Star Trek is.

 

[SJGardner]

Star Trek: The Next Generation was its worst when Picard was used as a transparent soapox for Gene's oh-so-eighties condescending pseudo-new-age posturing about how literally everything about contemporary America is worthless and barbaric, and it would only do us a lot of good if it were all cleansed in nuclear hellfire.

And yet, these neverending arrogant speeches about how the people of the 24th century are literally better and superior in every way to these barbarians whose only value for the evolved, civilized man (comparisons to colonial attitudes towards their subjects absolutely intended) is to serve as a grim reminder of the impurities of the human soul that were rightfully left behind, were somehow taken by a whole lot of fans as not only ideals to aspire to but actual factual descriptions of the entirety of 24th century civilization, despite the fact that these messages were quietly dismissed the moment Gene's influence on the production started waning, with some of Picard's (and others as well; see Riker's early claims about no one drinking alcohol in the future) claims being directly countered by the narrative within TNG itself.

 

[Pauln6]

Yeah 24th Century Humans had apparently risen above the petty conflicts of 20th and 21st century humans, yet he couldn't rise above his own petty needs to cheat on his wife repeatedly, lust after money and engage in rampant drug and alcohol abuse. People lift him up in this cult-like fashion as if he is some sage, saintly, guru when in fact he embodied some of humanities worst traits. Fans frequently ignore what a massive hypocrite Roddenberry was and how many of the best aspects of the franchise didn't even come from him. I respect Roddenberry for creating Star Trek, but i refuse to use 'Roddenberry's vision' as a barometer for what good Star Trek is.

Gawd yes it took 50 years for Trek to cast off its sexist shackles, although Roddenberry can't be held solely responsible for that and each series nudged a little bit closer, even if the pace was slower than other franchises. The Motion Picture isn't too bad, it just lacked a high-ranking female officer in a signficant role but the subsequent movies dialled that back quite a bit.

Even in TOS, there was plenty of evidence that there was conflict and intrigue going on in the Federation so maybe it was more than the main characters projected optimism in a way that they don't at the moment. There were definitely colonial overtones that were diluted later. Some of the best Trek is very preachy, such as Devil in the Dark or the Measure of a Man, but so is some of the worst. To this day, I can't work out if there was a moral to the Omega Glory beyond communisim's bad, 'nkay (despite demonstrating through words and deeds that the Yankees were actually worse - was THAT the moral? I'm still confused by it).

It may just be that they are trying out different tones for each show. I find the characters in Discovery to be optimistic but cloying and unprofessional. SNW seems to have more of the classic tone. Lower Decks is playful but surprisingly fathful. It may just be that peddling new galaxy level threats each season of Picard means going deeper and darker. I actually preferred the lower level stuff, like the Romulan archeology on the Borg Cube but this story does feel like it intends to give the classic characters a proper send off.

I enjoy all the shows and it's dumbing down the science or forgetting the parameters of their own fictional science that irritate me more than anything else but it does feel that the tone in Picard has shifted uncomfortably far from TNG. The torture scene for example - if the starfleet officers are Starfleet, why are they just accepting a prisoner being tortured but if they're infiltrators, why does Vadic shoot the guards? It's clear that a lot of stuff happened between scenes but I think perhaps watching the junior crew of the Cerritos use their brains to query authority has ruined me for plot holes such as this.

 

[Nerys Myk]

The Motion Picture isn't too bad, it just lacked a high-ranking female officer in a signficant role but the subsequent movies dialled that back quite a bit.

If Rand hadn't turned her into goop, there would have been.

can't work out if there was a moral to the Omega Glory beyond communisim's bad, 'nkay (despite demonstrating through words and deeds that the Yankees were actually worse - was THAT the moral? I'm still confused by it).

Kirk's speech is the moral

This was not written for chiefs. (general consternation) Hear me! Hear this! Among my people, we carry many such words as this from many lands, many worlds. Many are equally good and are as well respected, but wherever we have gone, no words have said this thing of importance in quite this way. Look at these three words written larger than the rest, with a special pride never written before or since. Tall words proudly saying We the People. That which you call Ee'd Plebnista was not written for the chiefs or the kings or the warriors or the rich and powerful, but for all the people! Down the centuries, you have slurred the meaning of the words, 'We, the people of the United States, in order to form a more perfect union, establish justice, ensure domestic tranquillity, provide for the common defence, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this constitution.' These words and the words that follow were not written only for the Yangs, but for the Kohms as well!
CLOUD: The Kohms?
KIRK: They must apply to everyone or they mean nothing! Do you understand?

I enjoy all the shows and it's dumbing down the science or forgetting the parameters of their own fictional science that irritate me more than

So, you're saying it's Star Trek?

The torture scene for example - if the starfleet officers are Starfleet, why are they just accepting a prisoner being tortured but if they're infiltrators, why does Vadic shoot the guards?

I think they're all Changelings. Not sure why Vadic kills them. She's just crazy, I guess.

 

[fireproof78]

why does Vadic shoot the guards? I

She's fucking nuts.

 

[Racefuel]

The Motion Picture isn't too bad, it just lacked a high-ranking female officer in a signficant role but the subsequent movies dialled that back quite a bit.

TMP has a lot of sexist tropes, its still very fresh in my mind since I just watched the new Directors Cut on HBO last night.

Take Lieutenant Ilia. A devastatingly beautiful woman who the men fawn after and Gene has her mention explicitly a "oath of celebacy" being on record as if shes an unstoppable sex machine. Her only purpose is to offer a romantic tension with Decker and to die and then come back in a bizarre yet still sexy robodroid probe form who Decker manages to love back to being something kind of human.

Nurse Chapel is now a Doctor, but McCoy is wanting a new nurse because he thinks Chapel will now argue every diagnosis with him. Frankly Chapel is the only female character not treated in a sexist way. Uhura is more or less the same as she was in TOS..a talking computer station.

But yes..I guess it's better than silver bikini sexbots with bras that look like baked potato.

 

[SJGardner]

I think they're all Changelings. Not sure why Vadic kills them. She's just crazy, I guess.

She's fucking nuts.

She also shoots one of her underlings (whom she berates as ill-defined and unshaped) for complaining too much at the beginning of The Bounty, so she definitely has no qualms about hurting other Changelings.

 

[fireproof78]

But yes..I guess it's better than silver bikini sexbots with bras that look like baked potato.

Yes. Much.

 

[thribs]

TMP has a lot of sexist tropes, its still very fresh in my mind since I just watched the new Directors Cut on HBO last night.

Take Lieutenant Ilia. A devastatingly beautiful woman who the men fawn after and Gene has her mention explicitly a "oath of celebacy" being on record as if shes an unstoppable sex machine. Her only purpose is to offer a romantic tension with Decker and to die and then come back in a bizarre yet still sexy robodroid probe form who Decker manages to love back to being something kind of human.

Nurse Chapel is now a Doctor, but McCoy is wanting a new nurse because he thinks Chapel will now argue every diagnosis with him. Frankly Chapel is the only female character not treated in a sexist way. Uhura is more or less the same as she was in TOS..a talking computer station.

But yes..I guess it's better than silver bikini sexbots with bras that look like baked potato.

That's referring to her race, the Deltans who apparently cause other species to go mad if they have sex with them. It implies to the men as well.

 

[Racefuel]

That's referring to her race, the Deltans who apparently cause other species to go mad if they have sex with them. It implies to the men as well.

Yeah we know that now, I'm meaning at the context of the time.

 

[Nerys Myk]

That's referring to her race, the Deltans who apparently cause other species to go mad if they have sex with them. It implies to the men as well.

It's a prettied up version of Green Animal Women.

 

[Nerys Myk]

THEORY: I think the masked and robed Changelings on Vadic's ship might not be able to shapeshift. They are stuck in semi-liquid form which the masks and what ever they have under the robes keep together, Maybe a side-effect of the virus?