Spoilers Star Trek: Picard 3x01 - "The Next Generation"

[cooleddie74]

As many criticisms as I've had of DSC since it first premiered the use of vulgarities in a couple of episodes is pretty close to if not at the bottom of my list. It's language. People still Grok Spock even though that word didn't exist before 1961 and these days most people don't use that word. But nobody is going to blow a gasket if you do.

I mean, the Tamarians literally use metaphor and mythological references to communicate with Picard and the Enterprise-D crew. And that episode about how beings communicate is lauded as one of the best in the entire franchise.

 

[fireproof78]

As many criticisms as I've had of DSC since it first premiered the use of vulgarities in a couple of episodes is pretty close to if not at the bottom of my list. It's language.

Same here. It's amazing to me how other franchises get excused but Star Trek is held to this near Shakespearean level standard that is just unfathomable, or nearly so. It puts TNG humans on a pedestal of nearly divine like qualities, and the fact that we are in an age where technology out paces much of what was imagined in the 80s and 90s doesn't seem to change the strong desire to cling to the fantasy.

 

[cooleddie74]

"Ooooh, Star Trek has lots of actors who've been in Shakespeare! So Trek needs to sound haughty and self-important!"

Yeah, no.

 

[Nerys Myk]

"Ooooh, Star Trek has lots of actors who've been in Shakespeare! So Trek needs to sound haughty and self-important!"

Yeah, no.

William Shakespeare and the gentle art of cursing

 

[Yistaan]

"Ooooh, Star Trek has lots of actors who've been in Shakespeare! So Trek needs to sound haughty and self-important!"

Yeah, no.

That other Star franchise, which is supposed to be barbaric, and always in a war, has run through just about every sci-fi trope and storyline under the sun and hasn't felt the need to resort to heavy foul language in either of its continuities (pre-Disney or post-Disney), unless you dig up some ultra obscure Legends book that no one's heard of or whatever.

Not even Andor went there (although there are reports they almost did). Luke could've told Rey to f--- off in the Last Jedi but even Rian Johnson didn't go there.

Which indicates it's not necessary in sci-fi storytelling especially when again, the Star Wars universe is supposed to be far more shady and morally barbaric than Star Trek's is (even the Jedi can be construed as being socially backwards with their forced mentally unhealthy rules). Which means that the only reason vulgarities are in Trek is for shock value, and the complaints are legit and while people may disagree, the ones bringing the complaints don't deserve to be labeled as wanting a self-important atmosphere.

 

[fireproof78]

Oh, please. STAR WARS used hell, and a shit slang in Andor. It almost had "fuck the Empire ".

Pearl clutching at its finest.

 

[SJGardner]

I fail to understand why swearing indicates a "shady and morally barbaric" character or why the usage of any swear words requires the justification that they illustrate a gritty, violent, barbaric and uncivilized setting or a negative character. Or any justification at all. Ordinary people swear all the time for the widest of reasons, even professionals when they're working, it's not the end of the world. Why would people using the oh-so-dreaded f-word on occasion irrevocably taint the Star Trek universe and destroy any claim to the Federation being an utopian future?

 

[Nerys Myk]

Oh, please. STAR WARS used hell, and a shit slang in Andor. It almost had "fuck the Empire ".

Pearl clutching at its finest.

What sort of poodoo is that?

 

[cooleddie74]

The newest background character Sh'At-Piles would find no issue with his universe.

 

[Yistaan]

Ordinary people swear all the time for the widest of reasons, even professionals when they're working, it's not the end of the world.

I mean, going by the news these days, the polarized language, the attempt to overturn an American election just 3 years ago, the wars going on now that all started with hasty words and lacking professionalism, I find that's a very interesting statement. Because if the world does indeed end in some nuclear cataclysm or whatever, you can bet that vulgar worded and vulgar minded people led up to it.

In Trek's world, they avoided that presumably by acting by a set of ethical standards that teaches us how to aspire to, and that starts with language, manners, etc. I don't see what's complicated about that.

 

[Nerys Myk]

I mean, going by the news these days, the polarized language, the attempt to overturn an American election just 3 years ago, the wars going on now that all started with hasty words and lacking professionalism, I find that's a very interesting statement. Because if the world does indeed end in some nuclear cataclysm or whatever, you can bet that vulgar worded and vulgar minded people led up to it.

That's a stretch.

 

[fireproof78]

Vulgarity led to war?

 

[SJGardner]

I mean, going by the news these days, the polarized language, the attempt to overturn an American election just 3 years ago, the wars going on now that all started with hasty words and lacking professionalism, I find that's a very interesting statement. Because if the world does indeed end in some nuclear cataclysm or whatever, you can bet that vulgar worded and vulgar minded people led up to it.

Don't mix hate speech and swearing. There is no correlation between the two and there never has been. It has been my personal experience that most people who want to throw me in a prison or flat-out exterminate me for what I am are always sugarcoating it with polite words and mild "concern" for the safety of children, the safety of women, appealing to family and tradition and all that buzz. And I hate that I have to resort to a reductio ad Hitlerum but history can attest to that most Nazis have been nothing but unfailingly polite and articulate because they prided themselves on being a civilized master race.

 

[fireproof78]

to that most Nazis have been nothing but unfailingly polite and articulate because they prided themselves on being a civilized master race.

Maybe that's why the elitist attitude of TNG is so off putting. Politeness veiling contempt.

 

[Yistaan]

Don't mix hate speech and swearing. There is no correlation between the two and there never has been. It has been my personal experience that most people who want to throw me in a prison or flat-out exterminate me for what I am are always sugarcoating it with polite words and mild "concern" for the safety of children, the safety of women, appealing to family and tradition and all that buzz. And I hate that I have to resort to a reductio ad Hitlerum but history can attest to that most Nazis have been nothing but unfailingly polite and articulate because they prided themselves on being a civilized master race.

I'm disabled (hearing loss) and an Asian and I HAVE had hate thrown at me mixed with vulgarities. So that it hasn't happened to you or that it's not documented in World War 2 shouldn't cause you to belittle the experiences of marginalized groups who have had that mixed in. I'm surprised I have to say this,

 

[cooleddie74]

Maybe that's why the elitist attitude of TNG is so off putting. Politeness veiling contempt.

Which reaches its peak in "Who Watches the Watchers?" I know that the Mintakans were holding Federation citizens hostage but the sneering, condescending attitude of Picard to those people always makes me cringe a little.

 

[fireproof78]

Which reaches its peak in "Who Watches the Watchers?" I know that the Mintakans were holding Federation citizens hostage but the sneering, condescending attitude of Picard to those people always makes me cringe a little.

It still blows my mind that in a franchise espousing ecumenicalism and diversity and acceptance still espouse elitist contempt for regular humans. It makes it very difficult to believe in a positive future when people who simply like different Treks can't respect one another...

Vulgarity has nothing to do with it.

 

[cooleddie74]

"You still hold religious beliefs. Thankfully we in the Federation overcame that superstitious bullshit many centuries ago. Now please heed our advice."

Except plenty of Federation societies still have spiritual and religious beliefs systems. And some of your advice sucks, Jean-Luc.

 

[Nerys Myk]

I'm disabled (hearing loss) and an Asian and I HAVE had hate thrown at me mixed with vulgarities. So that it hasn't happened to you or that it's not documented in World War 2 shouldn't cause you to belittle the experiences of marginalized groups who have had that mixed in. I'm surprised I have to say this,

Well, they didn't say that or do that.

 

[SJGardner]

I'm disabled (hearing loss) and an Asian and I HAVE had hate thrown at me mixed with vulgarities. So that it hasn't happened to you or that it's not documented in World War 2 shouldn't cause you to belittle the experiences of marginalized groups who have had that mixed in. I'm surprised I have to say this,

What I'm saying is that it's not the "ugliness" of the swearwords themselves that determines whether it's hate speech or not. People don't become hateful and aren't incited to violence because they hear others talk about marginalized groups using "fuck" and "shit." Swearing is not violent. Hate speech itself is.

ETA: And I'm not talking about slurs. That's a completely different and absolutely abhorrent practice that has no place in public speech. But luckily, the only time we heard the n-word for example, it was in a 20th century context in an episode about racism. Not in the everyday speech of Federation citizens.