Spoilers Star Trek: Picard 1x10 - "Et in Arcadia Ego, Part 2"

Discussion in 'Star Trek: Picard' started by Commander Richard, Mar 25, 2020.

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Rate the episode...

  1. 10 - I'm sending the writers orchids!

    31.9%
  2. 9

    26.2%
  3. 8

    15.7%
  4. 7

    7.7%
  5. 6

    5.1%
  6. 5

    2.2%
  7. 4

    4.5%
  8. 3

    2.9%
  9. 2

    1.6%
  10. 1 - Crash and burn!

    2.2%
  1. TimeIsAPredator

    TimeIsAPredator Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Mar 15, 2020
    His great nightmare was the Borg stripping his humanity and now he is a sort of robot. If they dont make something of that mindfuck its a joke
     
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  2. Gonzo

    Gonzo Guest

    Well its a bit of a grey area right now.

    The other synths like Sutra do have some synthetic parts but supposedly Picard is the same as Soji who is all flesh and blood, thing is if that is the case then Soji doesn't really qualify as a synth at all.

    We don't actually know what Soji or Picard are at this point.

    We know Altan is human at the one end of the scale and Data (RIP) is full android at the other end.

    Exactly where Picard and Soji belong on that scale has not really been clearly established as yet.

    There must be multiple disciplines involved in their creation, including:

    Cybernetics obviously although how much is involved in Soji and Picards case is anyone's guess at this point.
    Medicine - Pretty much essential, especially in the areas of the brain, skeleton and central nervous system.
    Genetic Engineering as I don't see how they can create a body and tailor it without DNA modification, we know it isn't a cloned body or VAT grown as it was supposed to be for Altan, based on his DNA and not suitable for Picard.

    Plus whatever they use to transfer the mind state across to the new body, if they copy the mind state rather than transfer it that opens a whole new can of worms.

    The brain is the sticking point for me, designing a positronic brain that functions the same or probably better than an organic one is one thing (Soong Senior did that decades ago), creating a new organic universal brain from scratch that ties in to a central nervous system is quite something else.

    Hopefully in S2 we will find out exactly what Picard is when he does.
     
  3. Thomas Elliot

    Thomas Elliot Commander Red Shirt

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    I was thinking it would be more of a focus as well. He had like what, two spells and that's it? It didn't really affect it, and if they're going to introduce him having a disease like this I would have liked to have seen it treated a little more seriously and have his illness carry some weight, rather than just have it as an excuse advocate for lifting the synth ban and have a melodramatic death finale that lasts for 5 minutes.

    And why didn't they refer to it as Irumodic Syndrome?u

    To be fair, they probably feel they have to pull out all the stops to get people talking about it. Look at the other science-fiction television they have to compete with. Westworld which also deals significantly with AI is so much more complex and yet it premiered four years ago. So having a lot of so many melodramtic moments, fan service, forced action sequences, cute F-bombs (this ain't your grandpa's Star Trek!) gets people talking, and if not, at least feels closer on the surface to modern shows.

    To be fair "normal people" can enter into one night stands. However, it's very much in the heteronormative Hollywood cliche tradition, where the man and the woman have to get romantically involved. It becomes even more cliched when nothing really changes between Agnes and Rios, even after she's revealed to be a murderer. They even share a happy ending kiss at the end.

    That's the writing challenge, and involves taking risks. I would be far more interested in a former Starfleet Captain Picard who's very slowly losing his mental faculties yet is struggling to fight it as best he can, especially in light of Starfleet and the Federation losing its core values and beliefs. Why would they take a "senile old man" seriously, former Captain or not? I think it would send a strong message that older people, and even those suffering from disease or disabilities can still be viable citizens and contributors to society. That struggle itself is a good representation of humanity. The concept was done in Still Alice (2014) and I can easily see something similar incorporated into Picard's story.



    That makes it far too simple. Does he have to die in this season? Do they have to find a miracle cure? In the first season too?
    They could have ignored the Irumodic Syndrome completely since they didn't actually name it. They just mentioned some incurable disease. Or reintroduce it in season 2. Or have him dealing with it throughout the series. Or have him looking for a cure. Or have that be an element in season 2, that with the synth ban lifted can they find a cure for his disease?


    I still haven't seen all of Star Trek III. But if you believe Spock's resurrection is "wonky," how is that justification to repeat something similar, with even lesser weight and impact?

    It feels very much like the "reset button" of TNG. Especially how neatly so many things get solved in the finale. It doesn't need to be "old business" before "new business." This is an era of serialized storytelling where things occur more naturally over the course of several seasons.
     
    Last edited: Apr 19, 2020
  4. Thomas Elliot

    Thomas Elliot Commander Red Shirt

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    Exactly. You wouldn't to have a character saying over and over "I'm dying." That would be cheap, and I doubt most accomplished writers would have anything comparable to that. Instead you realistically depict someone who has a disease that they have to live with. Even people I know who have/had terminal or potentially terminal health issues aren't saying "I'm dying" all the time.

    Yeah, but the young people today, they like to hook up, you know?
    Agnes needed a quickie to get her mind off of being a murderer. Totally relatable.
    But the writers seemed to also want to do the opposites attract thing. Rios is the handsome, daring, Han Solo-type Agnes is the cringey, awkward geek. Awww, aren't they cute together! Totally opposite but cute!
    So I can kind of see why the writers wanted someone as awkward as Agnes to be seen as sexually appealing to the badboy. Here they're playing against the stereotype of the type of woman the badboy would typically find sexually attractive.

    However, I would have been more impressed if the Pisco-drinking, soccer playing Cristóbal Ríos wasn't also the Latin lover. Here they lean way too much into the stereotype.

    But we need some fan service. Without Brent Spiner reprising the role in a significant way you're not going to hook in the old fans. And one death wasn't enough to make waves, so they had to bring back an already dead Data to give him an even better death.

    I agree. The significance of death becomes less and less with this series. After what, 15 years of friendship Spock sacrifices himself for his best friend Kirk and the rest of his friends and crew. That carries some weight and has some impact. And it's at least two years later and another film before he's resurrected, and even then it comes at a great cost. Kirk loses ship, and more importantly, his son.

    Then in 2013 we get a new Kirk and new Spock, and they do the same, but twist-Kirk is the one who dies-and Spock rages out despite only being friends for what 4 years? And Kirk is brought back in the very same film!

    Now in PIC, Picard dies and people who've only known him for 10 episodes start bawling. But he's brought back not just in the same episode, but like 5 minutes later.

    If death and resurrection in Star Trek continue to progress as this rate the next major character will come back before they're killed.
     
    Last edited: Apr 19, 2020
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  5. fireproof78

    fireproof78 Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Yes, and makes sense for both character arcs. The only part that is rough is the "Khan" yell but that's 2 seconds I can skip over and still value that moment.
     
  6. Makarov

    Makarov Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Jurati and Rios hooking up is nothing new Riker and Troi were doing it all the time in TNG, with other people I mean
     
  7. TimeIsAPredator

    TimeIsAPredator Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    even on an asexual planet Riker found a woman to fall in love with
     
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  8. cooleddie74

    cooleddie74 Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Riker fell in love with a hologram. :p
     
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  9. Thomas Elliot

    Thomas Elliot Commander Red Shirt

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    That's true, and I think at times it was extremely forced back then. There's one episode, I think it was the "The Masterpiece Society" where Troi falls for the ambassador guy. It seemed unrealistic that Troi would fall for this guy that hard. Riker falls for an androgynous alien in "The Outcast." Really? The alien didn't seem anything at all like Riker's type.
     
  10. Makarov

    Makarov Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    They had to wrap their romance storylines up in 1 hour episodes so it's always hit it and quit it. The one that really bothered me was Picard romance with Nella Daren. They should have either continued that character or given it to Crusher because Picard sharing his Inner Light flute music was too good for a one off episode.
     
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  11. Thomas Elliot

    Thomas Elliot Commander Red Shirt

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    Yeah, I get that. When you have a week in between episodes, and on top of that, each episode is the first episode for someone out there, it's easily forgivable. It's on streaming watches back to back that it seems strange.

    I liked the fact that they at least referenced a previous episode and have it actually seem to permanently change the character. The reveal that he still plays the flute based on how significant that other life felt to him was great.

    But yes, it's a shame that Picard opens up to Daren, who was a strong character in of herself, and it was all set up to say Picard can't love a fellow officer, and then send her off. The ol' reset button. She really should have been a recurring character or at least have their relationship continue for a couple more episodes.

    I can't see Crusher in place of Daren in that episode. Wendy Hughes was perfect, and the little catty exchange between her and Crusher was perfect.
     
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  12. fireproof78

    fireproof78 Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    See, that was one of the few relationships I believed and totally believed why she left.
     
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  13. Makarov

    Makarov Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Picard feeling he couldn't order her into danger was kind of a stretch to me. He sends families into danger all the time whenever he takes the ship somewhere dangerous. Sends his best friends into danger on every mission.
     
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  14. F. King Daniel

    F. King Daniel Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Right there is where you badly misread the movies.
     
  15. fireproof78

    fireproof78 Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    It was far more personal in this instance and his judgement was compromised. Every person has blind spots in their judgement and that happens to be Picard's.
     
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  16. Nyotarules

    Nyotarules Vice Admiral Moderator

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    No, you bought what they were selling, I chose not to. There is no divine rule all movie plots must be acceptable to everyone who watches.
     
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  17. Tuskin38

    Tuskin38 Admiral Admiral

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  18. hbquikcomjamesl

    hbquikcomjamesl Commodore Commodore

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    That is the question.

    And if the former, has he been saved from annihilation, or has he been deprived of his opportunity to (paraphrasing Diane Duane in The Wounded Sky) leave the game, count his chips, and either sit out a round or two, or jump right back in? Or was it simply not yet his time?

    -- Yoda
     
  19. hbquikcomjamesl

    hbquikcomjamesl Commodore Commodore

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    That sounds kind of like damning with faint praise.

    ******

    Lost opportunity: instead of the USS Zheng He, Riker's flagship could have been the USS Lollipop. "It's a good ship."
     
    Last edited: Jun 9, 2021
  20. Oddish

    Oddish Commodore Fleet Captain

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    My take on the ending... I always have trouble when a perfect ending is messed with. I consider Men in Black 2 an abomination, not because it was inherently bad, but because it ruined MiB's wonderful ending and didn't give us a comparable or superior one in its place, just a weak one-liner by Will Smith. I still hold a grudge against the writers of DC for undoing Superman's heroic death, to the point that I refused to watch "Justice League" because it recreated that arc.

    So, I obviously am not wild about how Picard's heroic and touching death, and the reactions of all characters to it, was "undone". It would have been more satisfying to see that at the end of the final season, when Picard's time could truly reach its end. Data's necessary final scene (like it or not, Brent Spiner has aged quite a bit) would have had more than enough tears for the end of S1.