Spoilers Star Trek: Picard 1x09 - "Et in Arcadia Ego, Part 1"

[fireproof78]

Wasn't the entire series filmed before the decision to do Season 2 was made?

My guess is the series will end with Picard in an ambiguous place, terminal yet not dead. Often times with aged actors (IE SPS), even without the current situation, they don't want to leave loose ends left untied should he shuffle loose the mortal coil

I don't know. But, I get tired of the "They're going to kill him!" guesswork just because the actor is older. There is zero story need for Picard to die in this series and I think the story is lesser with him dying.

 

[cooleddie74]

Admiral McCoy wasn't killed off. Just saying.

 

[fireproof78]

Admiral McCoy wasn't killed off. Just saying.

Neither was Scotty.

 

[cooleddie74]

And both were played by elderly actors portraying even more elderly characters. No need to kill either.

And need I remind us that Spock Prime was only killed off in the Kelvin Timeline because Leonard Nimoy died in real life? Were Nimoy still around in 2016 he may well have been offered some speaking part in Star Trek Beyond.

 

[JD]

I'm almost positive they're not going to kill Picard. I really can't see them killing off the title character after only one season.
I'm about 60% sure that the new android is going to be used to bring back Data in a more human looking body, so Brent Spiner doesn't have to deal with the makeup and contacts.
And if Data does come back, then we better get at least one appearance by Geordi, so we can get a Data/Geordi reunion.

I'd like to think the final episode will feature Picard literally on his deathbed with all of his crew/loved ones surrounding him, including Wesley. Then in a flash Q appears to say "Goodbye, mon capitan."

That would be the best way to bring Q onto the show.

 

[Dukhat]

Except they practically hit us over the head with a shovel about his Irumodic syndrome being terminal. Why do that unless he isn’t going to be around long?

 

[Yistaan]

And both were played by elderly actors portraying even more elderly characters. No need to kill either.

And need I remind us that Spock Prime was only killed off in the Kelvin Timeline because Leonard Nimoy died in real life? Were Nimoy still around in 2016 he may well have been offered some speaking part in Star Trek Beyond.

I think outright killing the character even after Nimoy's death was a mistake. They had the perfect exit for Spock in the Kelvin movies anyway. All they needed to be told was that Ambassador Spock found a way back to the Prime Universe and decided to go home, and the Kelvin universe residents won't ever see him again. That's it.

 

[fireproof78]

Except they practically hit us over the head with a shovel about his Irumodic syndrome being terminal. Why do that unless he isn’t going to be around long?

Even if he isn't "Going to be around long" there is no need in this story for him to die. To my mind, it pretty much renders his mission a bit pointless. Go out, relearn things you need to learn, and then die. It's not interesting, it's not inspirational and it feels very much like giving up.

Mileage will definitely vary on this one.

 

[cooleddie74]

"How did he get home?"

"He was Ambassador Spock. He always beat the odds and found a way to win."

 

[Anduinel]

Except they practically hit us over the head with a shovel about his Irumodic syndrome being terminal. Why do that unless he isn’t going to be around long?

If nothing else, it's a good bit of plot to have in the toolkit if Sir Patrick decides he doesn't want to commit to another season.

 

[cooleddie74]

It does give him an exit policy if his own health as an actor declines in the foreseeable future and continuing to act in an action-heavy regular series in which he's the lead becomes too burdensome. I still don't want it to happen.

 

[Kevman7987]

"How did he get home?"

Obviously a space wizard did it.

 

[Gonzo]

While I am on board with it happening eventually if that is how Patrick Stewart wants to leave the franchise I don't think we are there yet.

He could die in this seasons finale which forces Agnes into saving him the only way she can by transferring him into the synth body, keeping his outward appearance the same with no one the wiser.

The others would work it out pretty quickly though, especially Raffi.

Other than that the only way to do it would be to recast the character with a younger actor but I can't see them doing that.

 

[Guy Gardener]

They could recast with an older actor.

 

[Sci]

Sounds like the Picard show is doing its job. The showrunners wanted to target this "us vs them" mentality that's increasingly prevalent in our society and address it head on.

This.

I'm sorry, but the presence of other Romulan states is interesting texture, but it's not important info to the story being told. Not at all.

So, if the loss of Romulus had not only destabilized the Empire but fragmented it into multiple states, with multiple degrees of resources and different agendas, it wouldn't be important to elaborate on that?

It would be important to elaborate upon that if the story you're telling is per se the story of how the Romulan people survived the supernova.

It's not. This is the story of how Jean-Luc Picard found himself again after his greatest failure. That intersects with the Romulan Free State and the Borg Artifact, and calling it the Free State instead of the Star Empire is interesting texture that makes it clear the Romulans have had a major collective trauma. But it's not actually a vital detail for the story being told -- Star Trek: Picard would work just as well if the Artifact had been controlled by the Star Empire the whole time. And the presence of other Romulan states is totally unnecessary to this story.

Because it would seem like a good focal point to me, both as an important reaction to the crisis as well as one reason the Federation might have chosen to abandon the rescue operation. Because in this context, they're dealing with political chaos on top of every logistical strain as well.

What you're describing here is a different story than is being told in PIC.

I'm not saying it's a level of detail that's essential to the series, just one avenue that could be explored. And I think some fans would be right to criticize it being glossed over.

They would be right to criticize it being glossed over if the story of PIC was per se the story of what happened to the Romulans. It is not. The amount of world-building detail we have gotten onscreen is perfectly appropriate to the actual story being told.

If you want PIC to be telling a different story, well, okay, but that's an entirely different question from what level of detail is appropriate to the story it is telling.

I'm not yet convinced that Sutra is evil in the same sense Lore was, myself; I think we need a bit more context in the last episode. That being said, though, I think her extremism and apparent "cornered" perspective isn't really developed properly to seem plausible either. If Sutra is genuinely a student of Vulcan history and philosophies, and might have reason to respect a pacifist like Surak, then she must accept the logic that extremism is often (though not always) a faulty perspective even when it has some measure of justification.

If Rios provides the disturbing context behind the actions of his captain, that he was basically blackmailed into the murders by Oh (who would have destroyed the whole ship otherwise) and that he felt so guilty he killed himself afterward (in front of Rios, no less), then it's clearly not a case of organics just killing for no reason. There's little doubt that Vandermeer committed a serious crime, but not one he wanted to do. He was left, in a sense, cornered.

And if the android community is well aware of Data's history and his relationships with friends like Picard and the Enterprise crew, then logically they should be able to see the benefits inherent when different groups and races actually cooperate.

I think the problem here is that you're expecting Sutra to be thinking logically. She is incapable of that; she is traumatized and in fear of both her own death and the extermination of her people.

I have to say I'm a little bit disappointed by the different planets in PIC. They did a bang-up job in depicting future Earth.

But the Romulan refugee planet, Freecloud, Riker & Troi's planet, and now the Android Hippie planet - they all feel like very standard "planet-of-the-weeks" from late 80s TNG.

I mean, we really only got to see a small slice of each planet. We saw a commercial district in Stardust City on Freecloud, a single house in a rural community on Nepenthe, and a single housing complex on Coppelius. I don't think we're necessarily supposed to take this as a "planet of hats" kind of situation. But also, PIC isn't a story about exploration, so we're not necessarily gonna see everything that every planet featured on the show has to offer.

This week's Ready Room interview with Isa Briones shed some light on Sutra's motivations. Wil and Isa likened her to a "newly minted cultist"...somebody who's led a very sheltered life, is narrowly focused on her cause, and sees herself as the hero of her story. I'm surprised how quick Star Trek fans are to paint a character with the "evil" brush because they do the wrong thing. That's not what Trek's about.

Yep.

And hell, I'm not saying that Sutra is not on the verge of becoming evil. She clearly is. She's done a terribly evil thing in allowing Nareck to kill Saga, and she's gonna have to pay for that if she's to be redeemed. But I'm not quite willing to write her off just yet.

The "us vs. them" mentality can lead to incredibly harmful, toxic behavior. I think an illustrative example is the viciousness we see online between followers of different Democratic candidates for their party's nomination for U.S. President. There's this weird assumption some make that you must not support their community's liberation and equality if you support another's -- that you're a misogynist if you support Bernie Sanders, for instance, or that you don't care about poor people or working-class people if you support Elizabeth Warren. That kind of mental blinder, that "if you're not with us, you're against us and you're evil" mentality is real, and it's toxic. The examples I cited haven't led anyone to violence (that I'm aware of), but it certainly points to the ways in which that kind of Manichean thinking has the potential to lead someone to demonize those who are different from them as being a threat to their lives and communities, even when they're not.

Probably, since that graphic is likely intended to represented spore drive technology. I doubt they are going to throw spore drive tech into the final episode with no buildup whatsoever.

I sincerely doubt the orchids are meant to have any relationship to spore drive technology. They don't even appear to be capable of FTL travel themselves; they look like a very basic planetary defense technology and nothing else. If they were related to spore-drive tech, the Synths would just spore-a-port their entire community to another planet before the Romulans arrived.

However, had they gone in a spore drive/Control direction, I personally would not have been upset. Picard mind melded with Sarek, therefore should have some awareness of these plot elements. Plus, the parallel between Sarek's Bendii syndrome and Picard's Irumodic syndrome could have been explored.

One of the reasons I wish DIS had not established Michael's Vulcan guardians to be Sarek and Amanda is that I think it adds weird and unnecessary subtexts to episodes like "Sarek" and "Unification, Part II," wherein supposedly Picard knows everything about Sarek but says nothing to him or to Spock about the disappearance of Michael.

My headcanon is that Sarek's memory of Michael had already been destroyed by the Bendii Syndrome, and so when Picard melded with him, he didn't retain any knowledge of Michael's life, or of the fate of the USS Discovery, or of the existence of Section 31.

Is her sister's name "Kama"?

If you check out the names of the Synths -- Rune, Codex, Arcana, Saga, Sutra -- there's a distinct pattern. They all seem to be naming themselves after things related to information or the transmission of information. I noticed this when I watched the episode, and Chabon confirmed it on Instagram. He said they did this in honor of the impetus behind the names of Data and Lore -- naming themselves after information and the transmission of information.

No, my green friend, the Admonition is purported to be built by the alliance of synths and intended to be understood by synths, not poor meatsacks like you and me. Or at least me.

Or at least, that's why Sutra believes.

Of course, something else to consider that I haven't seen anyone bring up (though I've skipped a lot of pages): Who's to say that Sutra is not herself mentally compromised by the Admonition? If the Admonition can so badly damage or compel irrational behavior from organics, who's to say that its effect on a Synthetic mind is not akin to that of a computer virus, re-writing their code?

Sutra and Jurati may both have been the victims of what amounts to mind control during their murders.

It’s not that she’s evil for sake of being evil. Star Trek is really good at creating villains that think they are doing good. They don’t want to do the evil thing, they just don’t have any choice. Trek had Thanos-types, before it was cool. Just no one powerful enough to snap their fingers and wipe all life away. She is evil, don’t even question it. Once she figured out that if she calls this one long distance number, these new friends will come and kill all living things, she immediately put her plan in action. She even killed her own kind for this plan. If she’s not evil I don’t know what your definition for evil is.

I would define evil as the valuation of power above all other considerations, particularly moral considerations.

Sutra does not strike me as that kind of person... yet. We'll see what happens in Part II.

Is Jurati evil?

Sutra killed as part of killing trillions
Jurati killed as part of preventing killing trillions

Sutra thinks of herself as acting to prevent both the genocide of her existing Synth community, and as acting to protect the untold billions of Synths yet to be created.

Yes, she is wrong to do this. But acting from blind, irrational fear does not automatically make you evil. She may yet walk through that door, or be revealed to have walked through that door. But maybe we should stop this "Othering" of Sutra ourselves, eh?

Both are working to avoid an extermination of "my kind." That seems natural, self-defense to me.

Evil is more like enjoying hurting and harming for its own sake. The Romulan sister-agent seemed like that, though overall she was trying to avoid her kind getting slaughtered.

Everybody's working off a message they think is full and true, but all (Agnes, Oh, Sutra) might be wrong.

Maybe the message will be to be careful doing what you think is right.

The funny thing is, in a way, both Sutra and the Zhat Vash are right. The Zhat Vash were right to decide that the only way to be certain no Synth would ever summon the super-synths is to exterminate synthetic life before it develops that capacity. Sutra is right that there's a significant number of organics who want them to be exterminated and that the only way she can be sure her community is safe is if the Super-Synths are summoned.

A realistic, moral answer, of course, would be for both of them to abandon this Othering, this us-or-them mentality, and accept the risk that comes from trying to live in peace with your neighbors.

Ah, so we’re defending attempt at mass genocide, are we? She’s atleast 10 years old, don’t give her any excuses. She knows what she is doing. Evil is evil.

Recognizing a different motivation than "evil" is not defending her attempt at mass genocide.

I totally understand why that Israeli girl I went on a date with all those years ago feels the way she does about Palestinians. I understand being raised in constant fear of violence that cannot be predicted or controlled from a community you feel alienated from. That doesn't mean I condone her bigotry. But I understand it. And while I think she was a bigot, and that the things she was okay with were evil, I don't think she herself was evil.

But I also think we are all susceptible to the impulse to de-humanize and "Other"-ize people from communities we feel alienated from, and that we all subsequently have the capacity to favor or even actively participate in acts of mass violence against those communities. None of us are above that.

I'm not quite to the place of being willing to say Sutra is evil. I think she's traumatized and terrified and not thinking rationally. And I think she may well become evil yet. But we're not quite there yet either.

Don't get the "Rios is a hologram" nonsense at all. That being said, if holograms can't fool people under the sheets, what was the point of Quark's X-rated holosuites at all?

I mean, RealDolls don't fool anyone either, but they're still popular sex toys.

Obviously the Orchids are Mycelial based. Perhaps the Synth presence has been around a lot longer than Dr. Soong and has been watching ever since the days of the Discovery.

Why do we think one piece of organic technology must be related to another? Nothing about the orchids was mentioned to have anything to do with the Mycelial network. If they were, they could have an orchid engulf their housing development and spore-a-port away to another planet.

Mein Kampf has been reprinted a lot since the fall of Nazi Germany.

It's an accurate account of what happened.

No. It absolutely is not. I know you're trying to make a broader point and didn't mean this offensively, but it's really important to understand that Mein Kampf is a work of dishonest propaganda, not an "accurate account" of anything.

It's not in the elder Synth's interests to warn the Fleshies that all Syths must die, for thousands of years leading up to the genesis of new Synths.

Unless?

The elder Synths don't feel like you're a real Synth unless you've been hunted and persecuted by your creators?

Which meas that the elder Synths created and control the Zhat Vash.

The possibility that the Super-Synths are manipulating both the Zhat Vash and the modern Synths is very interesting!

It's a strange argument when someone cites Picard as a way to justify Picard. I don't hold to Kurtzman's portrayal of the Federation, or Ira Behr's for that matter.

That's a bit like saying you don't hold with Shakespeare's portrayal of the Kingdom of England in Henry V. Like, this is what England did: It invaded the Kingdom of France in a war of aggression to support Henry V's bid for the French crown. That's just a fact. You may or may not like it, but it's what is actually depicted in the actual work.

You may or may not like what the Federation did in PIC or in DS9, but it is what the Federation did. Headcanon does not override actual canon.

This entire thing about flip flopping and screwing the Romulans is such nonsense.

Right, because real politicians would never advocate for allowing massive numbers of people to die, or refuse to take necessary action to protect their own people, or refuse to help people in danger, or cut off important relationships for no good reason.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Sorry, by accurate all I meant was that a crazy guy said racist stuff, and this is the racist stuff that he said. Which is different from if the book was banned, abridged or censored.

 

[11Alive]

I'm almost positive they're not going to kill Picard. I really can't see them killing off the title character after only one season.

How about making it a mini-franchise that focuses on a single character each season? This season is Star Trek: Picard. Next season, based on Picard's "That's all on you now" line, it will be Star Trek: Annika. Then the third will be Star Trek: Riker.

 

[cooleddie74]

Star Trek: Brian Brophy!

 

[Spock Must Diet!]

How about making it a mini-franchise that focuses on a single character each season? This season is Star Trek: Picard. Next season, based on Picard's "That's all on you now" line, it will be Star Trek: Annika. Then the third will be Star Trek: Riker.

That's better than the marketing slogan, "Star Trek: Picard - now with 100% less Picard!"

 

[SolarisOne]

How about making it a mini-franchise that focuses on a single character each season? This season is Star Trek: Picard. Next season, based on Picard's "That's all on you now" line, it will be Star Trek: Annika. Then the third will be Star Trek: Riker.