Spoilers Star Trek: Picard 1x08 - "Broken Pieces"

[Thomas Elliot]

But it isn't, Narek is a member at least. It may just be happenstance that that group of inductees was all female.

That's an odd happenstance considering it's a work of fiction. Usually there's a reason for something like that, especially since we just got introduced to an all-female Romulan group, the Qowat Milat. For the audience it might unintentionally signal that there's a connection between the Zhat Vash and the Qowat Milat, it's the same group, or that only women are allowed to receive the vision. I got confused for a moment thinking that the Qowat Milat and the Zhat Vash were the same.
It would be just as conspicuous if Commodore Oh was a male, and it was only men receiving this vision, the implication being that maybe women aren't tough enough to bear the admonition, or maybe there's some sort of sex segregation among the higher ranks of the Zhat Vash, or in Romulan society in general. Or maybe the writer's are just carelessly writing the scene in a very male-centric way.

 

[NCC-73515]

She knew of him. We don't know that she would be able to recognize him if he had normal skin coloration.

Actually, I didn't immediately recognize him in Independence Day, so if he looks like that... XD

 

[Midquest]

That's an odd happenstance considering it's a work of fiction.

According to Chabon, Romulan society is matriarchal, which would explain the two rival sects we've encountered.
Also, @NCC-73515 We seem to have some avatar synergy happening.

 

[NCC-73515]

According to Chabon, Romulan society is matriarchal, which would explain the two rival sects we've encountered.

Then why were all praetors we've seen male?

 

[Grendelsbayne]

The same reason people would kick up a fuss if they were exclusively male in a series made in 2020?

Would they really? Especially considering the same show already has the Qowat Milat, anyway?

In any case this remains an idiotically false complaint as Narek still exists. And the Zhat Vash who lost his helment in episode 1 was a man, and so was the Zhat Vash they tried to interrogate in episode 3.

Was there a reason why Oh's Zhat Vash squad that subjected themselves to the vision were all women?

It was a small group. It could easily have been pure coincidence that that particular batch of recruits were all women. Or the Zhat Vash believe in segregating ceremonies, that would hardly be culturally unprecedented.

Also, it seems a little impractical to create this organization of the Zhat Vash and the initiation involves having something put into your head that will drive most people to insanity. What if nobody survived Oh's vision subjection? Or what if they slowly went mad and jeopardized the mission along the way?

It also seems unavoidable. Hard to convince people to be this extreme without showing them the 'evidence'. This is presumably why the Zhat Vash is still relatively small despite being so old.

And they're putting a lot of stock in this experience from an unknown alien culture. How do they know it's not psychological warfare? Disinformation? The result of a diseased mind? A disease itself that seeks to drive everyone mad? A trap of some kind. I think it would have made more sense if the vision was at least purely Romulan or Vulcan in origin so there would be some degree of trust in it, rather than risking your sanity and life just to perpetuate this thing. How many other cultures are out there that have their own myths and prophecies? Earth alone has too many, but the entire galaxy? Universe? Kirk and them thought they encountered God, seemed like God, but then it turned out to be fake. Kahless returned but that was fake. Cardassians, and Klingons found the origin of all humanoid life and they dismissed it outright.

I disagree. Not all people have to react the same. These particular people chose to believe in the alien prophecy/whatever it turns out to be. They would hardly be the first people in the franchise to do so.

So then she has to find another group of people willing to dedicate their lives to some cult-like cause, and also be willing to risk insanity and/or death by some crazy test.
Death and gore in PIC has been criticized, and it's been defended by arguing that it's depicting the real result of violence. And yet I don't get that so much from the show.
Oh and the Zhat Vash has a test that drive their members insane to the point of suicide. They still subject them, and they go along with it. Narissa kills all the xBs like a GTA character shooting random people. The kill count goes up but we as viewers don't care because we don't know the xBs. They're just bodies to fall.

The bad guys killing indiscriminately is old news, even in Trek. I remember all the dead redshirts from TOS, goldshirts on TNG and those battle scenes of Klingons killing random people on DS9, etc. Thanks to Seven, the XBs were mourned significantly more than most deaths of unknown characters on the previous shows.

 

[Midquest]

Then why were all praetors we've seen male?

Ret-con? That's a question I wondered myself.

 

[SolarisOne]

Ret-con? That's a question I wondered myself.

It's actually quite the way they were portrayed in the Rihannsu novels.

 

[Midquest]

It's actually quite the way they were portrayed in the Rihannsu novels.

Oh, interesting. I never got into many of the novels, but I've considered starting. I've always liked the Romulans, but I love them after Picard. Is Rihannsu a good place to start?

 

[Turtletrekker]

Oh, interesting. I never got into many of the novels, but I've considered starting. I've always liked the Romulans, but I love them after Picard. Is Rihannsu a good place to start?

They are very good but are not a good fit into the current canon. At the time they were considered definitive.

 

[Thomas Elliot]

It was a small group. It could easily have been pure coincidence that that particular batch of recruits were all women.

If there's no particular significance then why portray only women in the ceremony? That's my point.
It's like trying to explain why there are no Asians in the original trilogy of Star Wars films. I'm sure someone can come up with an in-universe explanation but I don't think people are going to buy it.

Or the Zhat Vash believe in segregating ceremonies, that would hardly be culturally unprecedented.

It wouldn't be culturally unprecedented but it doesn't answer my question. Midquest's post seems to explain it though.

It also seems unavoidable. Hard to convince people to be this extreme without showing them the 'evidence'. This is presumably why the Zhat Vash is still relatively small despite being so old.

Not really. There's no evidence of God/Allah being real, yet people have no problem with going to extreme's for their belief. Yet here we have recruits who are knowingly exposing themselves to something they might not survive, already proving their devotion to doing something extreme.
And Oh was able to show Jurati the vision without Jurati killing herself. Why not do the less insane version of that vision to her recruits? Save some lives in the process?

I disagree. Not all people have to react the same. These particular people chose to believe in the alien prophecy/whatever it turns out to be. They would hardly be the first people in the franchise to do so.

Not all people react the same but you'd think that someone would raise a hand and say, "hey, what if this were all a trick?" Especially considering how suspicious and duplicitous Romulans were portrayed prior to this.
I can imagine if this was a group of "The End is Nigh" types with cardboard signs and cups for change, but considering they have access to technology, history, education, other cultures, etc, it's hard to believe they're would be some dissent among them. Even Jurati

The bad guys killing indiscriminately is old news, even in Trek. I remember all the dead redshirts from TOS, goldshirts on TNG and those battle scenes of Klingons killing random people on DS9, etc.

Yeah, just because old Trek used to do it, doesn't mean it's a good portrayal. If women in Starfleet were still wearing skirts and not allowed to be Captains, I wouldn't point to TOS and say, "hey, that's how it's always been done."

Thanks to Seven, the XBs were mourned significantly more than most deaths of unknown characters on the previous shows.

I didn't get that impression at all. What were the XBs names? Who were they? It didn't have too much meaning because they were nameless characters just to demonstrate how bad the bad guy is.

 

[Thomas Elliot]

So Chabon wanted to now portray Romulan society as matriarchal but the origins of that depiction came before in earlier Star Trek novels?

 

[Grendelsbayne]

If there's no particular significance then why portray only women in the ceremony? That's my point.
It's like trying to explain why there are no Asians in the original trilogy of Star Wars films. I'm sure someone can come up with an in-universe explanation but I don't think people are going to buy it.

Why not? It's a handful of people. Only three of them are important to the story, who the rest are literally doesn't matter. And we'd already seen multiple men in the organization. There is no reason whatsoever to read anything into it at all.

Not really. There's no evidence of God/Allah being real, yet people have no problem with going to extreme's for their belief. Yet here we have recruits who are knowingly exposing themselves to something they might not survive, already proving their devotion to doing something extreme.
And Oh was able to show Jurati the vision without Jurati killing herself. Why not do the less insane version of that vision to her recruits? Save some lives in the process?

It's easy to convince (some) christians to be crusaders. They already live in a world where 'God' is fundamentally beyond question. The only stumbling block is convincing them that crusading is God's will. As you said, this is an alien prophecy, not a native religion. So no, you can't just tell people second-hand and expect them to believe you. You have to show them the proof.

As for Oh, for all we know she's the first person in the Zhat Vash to ever have that capability so it would've been a tactic unavailable until now. And we don't know whether it really gives the full power of the vision or not, which would obviously be important to fanatics like the Zhat Vash. There is also the question of the typical traditionalist nature of extremist organizations, as well - highly probable that earlier generations of the Zhat Vash might not trust any new agents who didn't experience the full, traditional initiation.

Not all people react the same but you'd think that someone would raise a hand and say, "hey, what if this were all a trick?" Especially considering how suspicious and duplicitous Romulans were portrayed prior to this.
I can imagine if this was a group of "The End is Nigh" types with cardboard signs and cups for change, but considering they have access to technology, history, education, other cultures, etc, it's hard to believe they're would be some dissent among them. Even Jurati

You say that like we have definitive proof no one has ever dissented. We've seen less than half a dozen individuals. The ones who dissented presumably left the group. As Jurati is doing now. (Those stories Laris and Zhaban heard had to come from somewhere.) Or were probably killed, in some cases. This isn't really a hard thing to figure out.

Yeah, just because old Trek used to do it, doesn't mean it's a good portrayal. If women in Starfleet were still wearing skirts and not allowed to be Captains, I wouldn't point to TOS and say, "hey, that's how it's always been done."

Not just old Trek. Pretty much almost all stories everywhere (that involve multiple deaths, anyway).

I didn't get that impression at all. What were the XBs names? Who were they? It didn't have too much meaning because they were nameless characters just to demonstrate how bad the bad guy is.

They were representative of everything that had been done to all the ex-Borg. I don't have to know their individual names anymore than I have to know the individual victims' names from the Holocaust. Seven mourned for them, her people, openly and that gave them meaning - far more meaning than the named redshirts who died only for Captain Kirk to end the episode casually joking around with Spock and McCoy like nothing had happened.

 

[Thomas Elliot]

Why not? It's a handful of people. Only three of them are important to the story, who the rest are literally doesn't matter. And we'd already seen multiple men in the organization. There is no reason whatsoever to read anything into it at all.

Well apparently there is because Chabon has said that Romulan society is matriarchal. So that's probably the reason the scene was depicted that way.

It's easy to convince (some) christians to be crusaders. They already live in a world where 'God' is fundamentally beyond question. The only stumbling block is convincing them that crusading is God's will. As you said, this is an alien prophecy, not a native religion. So no, you can't just tell people second-hand and expect them to believe you. You have to show them the proof.

And what is this proof? It's a vision supposedly from some other alien civilization that they themselves never heard of or knew. How do they know they didn't stumble across some really potent space LSD?
And again, if they need this convincing to follow this path, how did they get recruits in the first place? As I said, they're already willing to sacrifice their own lives just to endure this vision. Seems like they already are true believers.

As for Oh, for all we know she's the first person in the Zhat Vash to ever have that capability so it would've been a tactic unavailable until now. And we don't know whether it really gives the full power of the vision or not, which would obviously be important to fanatics like the Zhat Vash.

If she's the first person to have that capability, because of her Vulcan mind meld powers, why didn't she do that for her sisters? It made for a cool, violent horror scene. Why would they need the full power of the vision to create fanatics. They already have people willingly join the Zhat Vash.
Jurati seemed pretty convinced without getting the full power of the vision, enough to kill Maddox. She didn't go through with it probably because she's not Romulan, not part of the Zhat Vash, loves synths, has a girl crush on Soji, and is friends with Picard's crew.
If you already dedicate your life to the Zhat Vash and are a Romulan nationalist, the half powered vision seems like it'd be enough to seal the deal.

There is also the question of the typical traditionalist nature of extremist organizations, as well - highly probable that earlier generations of the Zhat Vash might not trust any new agents who didn't experience the full, traditional initiation.

Do extremist organizations typically want to keep their groups that small by recruiting people who will go mad? What if these useless nut jobs blab about the Zhat Vash or their mission? What if one of them snapped and killed Commodore Oh and then herself?

You say that like we have definitive proof no one has ever dissented. We've seen less than half a dozen individuals. The ones who dissented presumably left the group. As Jurati is doing now. (Those stories Laris and Zhaban heard had to come from somewhere.) Or were probably killed, in some cases. This isn't really a hard thing to figure out.

No, but it's hard to believe that this group has survived this long without ANYONE in the Federation knowing about it, but apparently the secret that drives you mad about synthetics is somehow passed along by drunken Tal Shiar.
If there were dissenters that left the group, they didn't tell anyone about it?

Not just old Trek. Pretty much almost all stories everywhere (that involve multiple deaths, anyway).

So indulging in cliche. I have a problem with how action and death are portrayed in most mainstream action-adventure shows/movies.

They were representative of everything that had been done to all the ex-Borg. I don't have to know their individual names anymore than I have to know the individual victims' names from the Holocaust.

We're talking about fiction not real-life history. Not putting a name or story to victims is a sure way to help desensitize people to violence, which is why law enforcement or FBI have recommended to the news media to give a greater focus on the individual victims of mass shootings and less time to the shooter.
Just seeing a # doesn't carry the same weight as putting a name to someone, finding out who they were, etc.

Seven mourned for them, her people, openly and that gave them meaning - far more meaning than the named redshirts who died only for Captain Kirk to end the episode casually joking around with Spock and McCoy like nothing had happened.

The way people get killed in PIC lends some validity to the criticisms of its depiction of violence. Elnor is depicted as a very sensitive individual, even hugging Seven when she arrived. Yet he has no problem decapitating people right after uttering his obligatory catchphrase, "Please friends, choose to live."

Captain Kirk casually joking around like nobody got killed? That's worthy of criticism as well, so I don't know how it counters my criticism.

 

[Grendelsbayne]

Well apparently there is because Chabon has said that Romulan society is matriarchal. So that's probably the reason the scene was depicted that way.

That's entirely fine with me. But if they weren't, the scene would still be entirely unremarkable in this respect.

And what is this proof? It's a vision supposedly from some other alien civilization that they themselves never heard of or knew. How do they know they didn't stumble across some really potent space LSD?
And again, if they need this convincing to follow this path, how did they get recruits in the first place? As I said, they're already willing to sacrifice their own lives just to endure this vision. Seems like they already are true believers.

The proof is convincing. That's really all that matters. Yes, maybe not to everyone. It doesn't have to be. And I would presume that people agree to be recruited because they hear from other people that there is clear proof and they will be allowed to see it. Hell, for all we know at this point, it may not actually be *required* to see the proof if you want to work for the Zhat Vash. It may simply be a choice people can make.

If she's the first person to have that capability, because of her Vulcan mind meld powers, why didn't she do that for her sisters? It made for a cool, violent horror scene. Why would they need the full power of the vision to create fanatics. They already have people willingly join the Zhat Vash.
Jurati seemed pretty convinced without getting the full power of the vision, enough to kill Maddox. She didn't go through with it probably because she's not Romulan, not part of the Zhat Vash, loves synths, has a girl crush on Soji, and is friends with Picard's crew.
If you already dedicate your life to the Zhat Vash and are a Romulan nationalist, the half powered vision seems like it'd be enough to seal the deal.

A more powerful vision = a more uncompromising fanatic. This is obviously something the Zhat Vash would value.

Also, Jurati seemed pretty convinced for a while. Until she wasn't anymore. Maybe if she'd seen the full vision she still would be.

Do extremist organizations typically want to keep their groups that small by recruiting people who will go mad? What if these useless nut jobs blab about the Zhat Vash or their mission? What if one of them snapped and killed Commodore Oh and then herself?

Lots of extremist groups treat people as expendable, yes. And I'm sure somewhere in the long history of the Zhat Vash someone has gone mad and killed someone else - the group still lives on.

As for blabbing, I'm 100% sure a group like the Zhat Vash would generally do their best to keep leaks to a minimum and people who try to leave the organization likely have a habit of disappearing mysteriously. But like I already said, the stories clearly are out there and had to come from somewhere. What's more likely - that some people successfully got out at least long enough to tell on them or that the Zhat Vash just think it's funny spreading urban legends about themselves?

No, but it's hard to believe that this group has survived this long without ANYONE in the Federation knowing about it, but apparently the secret that drives you mad about synthetics is somehow passed along by drunken Tal Shiar.
If there were dissenters that left the group, they didn't tell anyone about it?

Again, this is assuming facts not in evidence. Picard, Jurati, the Admiral, etc, are not ALL people in the Federation. Did Luther Sloane know about the Zhat Vash? No evidence either way, so why couldn't he have?

So indulging in cliche. I have a problem with how action and death are portrayed in most mainstream action-adventure shows/movies.

There are limits to how many people can be effectively focused on in any given story. Any portrayal of multiple deaths is going to be lacking in some way or another.

We're talking about fiction not real-life history. Not putting a name or story to victims is a sure way to help desensitize people to violence, which is why law enforcement or FBI have recommended to the news media to give a greater focus on the individual victims of mass shootings and less time to the shooter.
Just seeing a # doesn't carry the same weight as putting a name to someone, finding out who they were, etc.

It's not the name that's the issue. It's the view of someone as a person. I didn't bring up the Holocaust to compare xBs to the mother of all real world tragedies, I brought it up because I've been to Kamp Amersfoort and stood in the 'shooting range' where the Nazis executed people for being Jewish. I could feel the horror and inhumanity of it just standing there on a bright, sunny day with literally no one else in sight and I never did learn the name of a single one of the people who died there, nor what they looked like, what their lives were like or anything else.

Seven's mourning humanizes the xB's because they are meaningful and valuable to her, which is generally the simplest and most effective way to humanize low impact side characters in any story. This is a much better approach then just giving them each a name and a scene to showcase their personality and hoping the audience gets attached to them because storytelling throughout history has automatically conditioned us to not get attached to low-impact side characters. Trying to sell every xB to the audience individually would take up multiple episodes and probably result in most of the audience still not getting attached to them because we know ahead of time that they're not really the important characters. By contrast, Seven is a character we're already heavily invested in so seeing the xB's through her eyes and feeling her pain at their deaths is actually effective.

The way people get killed in PIC lends some validity to the criticisms of its depiction of violence. Elnor is depicted as a very sensitive individual, even hugging Seven when she arrived. Yet he has no problem decapitating people right after uttering his obligatory catchphrase, "Please friends, choose to live."

Captain Kirk casually joking around like nobody got killed? That's worthy of criticism as well, so I don't know how it counters my criticism.

Elnor follows an alien philosophy. I have no more problem with him than with Worf.

But from a real-world 'is this how we should depict violence' standpoint, I have no problem with criticising his scenes. It's a logical complaint. What doesn't ring true for me is the idea that all of these scenes across different aspects of Picard are all the same. Elnor's approach to violence is not comparable in the slightest to the deaths of the xB's, nor to Maddox's death nor the story of the ibn Majid. It is arguably comparable to Dahj's death. There is more than one style of storytelling going on here.

 

[RJDiogenes]

Not seeing it. Why would they assume these people might resemble somebody else that they'd know?

I don't see any logical reason why he would ever have been officially briefed on Data, though.

Why would Data be such a big deal to your average starfleet officer. If Rios was the science officer; and an expert in cybernetics, maybe.

Okay! I surrender! Beautiful Flower is Data!

 

[Grendelsbayne]

Okay! I surrender! Beautiful Flower is Data!

I wouldn't go that far...

But seriously I think it's a theoretical possibility, but I find myself entirely undecided on what I think has the best odds of actually happening. Part of me actually enjoys the narrative potential of Beautiful Flower is Rios, but even I'm having difficulty trying to justify that one plot-wise in my head.

 

[Kpnuts]

Would they really? Especially considering the same show already has the Qowat Milat, anyway?

In any case this remains an idiotically false complaint as Narek still exists. And the Zhat Vash who lost his helment in episode 1 was a man, and so was the Zhat Vash they tried to interrogate in episode 3.

The fact is they made a choice to depict all the Zhat Vash in that scene as female, and I don't understand why. I mean, it's in no way a surprise, but it still made me roll my eyes. The Qowat Milat is another example of the pendulum swinging so completely the other way.

 

[Grendelsbayne]

The fact is they made a choice to depict all the Zhat Vash in that scene as female, and I don't understand why. I mean, it's in no way a surprise, but it still made me roll my eyes. The Qowat Milat is another example of the pendulum swinging so completely the other way.

 

[Thomas Elliot]

The fact is they made a choice to depict all the Zhat Vash in that scene as female, and I don't understand why. I mean, it's in no way a surprise, but it still made me roll my eyes. The Qowat Milat is another example of the pendulum swinging so completely the other way.

I get what you're saying. It doesn't seem like coincidence at all, but instead it's meant to reinforce the idea that Romulan society in live-action Trek is now supposed to have been matriarchal. And the reason for that is to come across as new and reflective of what modern audiences want or expect.
So Chabon is saying that Romulan society is matriarchal. To push that idea, we have Qowat Milat. To hammer it home we have Commodore Oh initiating a female-only group into viewing the admonition. And the more ruthless and aggresive one of the Romulan siblings being the sister, Narissa. Of Picard's Romulan housekeepers, a man and a woman, it's the woman who's the more assertive one.
Overall, the show seems to be aware of the current social climate and is intent on flipping gender roles. The women are depicted as more aggressive and assertive. The "good guys" that give Picard a rightful dressing down are all women, with the exception of Elnor who was raised by women and is the most sensitive of the male characters we've seen. In fact when Seven comes to the rescue, Elnor, who has no problem killing and decapitating people, runs to hug her like a child running to his mother, or a damsel-in-distress running into the arms of her prince. The "bad guy" who give Picard a wrongful dressing down is a male Romulan who is swiftly beheaded.

 

[Kpnuts]

I get what you're saying. It doesn't seem like coincidence at all, but instead to reinforce the idea that Romulan society in live-action Trek is now supposed to have been matriarchal. And the reason for that is to come across as new and reflective of what modern audiences want or expect.
So Chabon is saying that Romulan society is matriarchal. To push that idea, we have Qowat Milat. To hammer it home we have Commodore Oh initiating a female-only group into viewing the admonition. And the more ruthless and aggresive one of the Romulan siblings be the sister, Narissa. Picard's Romulan housekeepers, a man and a woman, it's the woman who's the more assertive one.
Overall though, the show seems to be aware of the current social climate and is intent on flipping gender roles.
The women are depicted as more aggressive and assertive. The "good guys" that give Picard a rightful dressing down are all women, with the exception of Elnor who was raised by women as is the most sensitive of the male characters we've seen. In fact when Seven comes to the rescue, Elnor, who just killed several men no problem, runs to hug her like a child running to his mother, or a male version of the damsel in distress. The "bad guy" who give Picard a wrongful dressing down is that one male Romulan who is swiftly beheaded.

Well said. At the end of the day, two wrongs don't make a right. Trek might have been male dominated in the past, but swinging the pendulum the other way now isn't the way to go about things. Discovery is even more guilty of this. Remember Connoly being condescending towards woman and getting blown up because of his carelessness? These shows would never show a female character being idiotic or careless like that.

I was extremely surprised Rios' former captain was male tbh. Before him the only male Starfleet officer we'd seen was the idiot receptionist who didn't recognise Picard.