Spoilers Star Trek: Picard 1x02 - "Maps and Legends"

[Doc Mugatu]

How about nuclear energy instead of nuclear weapons?

Look at the European green movement of the 80s and beyond, for example, that grew out of protest movements reacting to all the high profile nuclear incidents of the era, but especially Three Mile Island, Chernobyl and Fukuoka. Most incidents were thoroughly investigated and turned out to have been caused by human error or a natural vis maior, but these people didn't campaign for increased nuclear safety, they wanted nuclear energy banned outright. And in just a few years, they organized into political parties, sometimes even ending up in government. The German Green Party was polled as the strongest party after the Fukuoka Disaster and it's still just a few points behind the current government party. And while it didn't lead to a total nuclear power ban, the German government has permanently shut down eight nuclear reactors and pledged to phase nuclear energy out completely by 2022. And they weren't the only country to stop building new nuclear plants altogether since the eighties.

Except nuclear power IS still researched. Nuclear power plants ARE still being built. Thirdly, again, you cited several events not just one. I would also say a major difference is that any reduction was reasoned and deliberated over time. Not knee-jerk to one incident. Some physicists thought cranking up the Hadron Collider could create a Black Hole that could destroy the Earth yet we hit the "ON" button anyway.

 

[Racefuel]

It gives you the feeling that other Federation species had similar stories though...and there’s genetic engineering and there’s genetic engineering. We see the Doctor do a little in Voyager, and there’s the hairbrush saves the day episode with Pulaski I forget the name of.

Are we talking about the genetic modification of Torres and Paris's kid? Or did I miss something where The Doctor legitimately followed through with the genetic tampering?

 

[jaime]

Yes, I love being contrarian. That makes me feel all warm and fuzz inside...

Fear is a very complicated emotion and isn't rational. I don't expect rational reactions to fears: Anxiety comes from that fear response, which means individuals will look more positively or negatively depending on how pervasive something may occur to them.

“It’s part of the complicated nature of fear,” Bader said. “When people respond to how much they fear something, part of it is them responding to, ‘How horrible would this thing be if it happened to me?’ and part of it is, ‘How likely is it to happen to me?”

While I have not been successful in finding real world examples, I don't really need it. I know the nature of fear, of human response, and how Trek has treated technology in the past. So, I would expect the behavior from Trek humans, and it is understandable to me.

I don't need it to be understandable to anyone else. But, I would appreciate it if there was not accusation of me just being "contrarian" just because I'm not willing to write a paper for a discussion forum, when research and study is part of my day to day work.

This place is more fun with mini essays.

Maybe that’s just me...

 

[jaime]

Are we talking about the genetic modification of Torres and Paris's kid? Or did I miss something where The Doctor legitimately followed through with the genetic tampering?

Yup. He was happy to tweak a bit, but not a lot.

Then there’s Crushers genetronic replicator.

 

[cooleddie74]

The Denobulans are supposed to have avoided all the bloodshed and warfare associated with genetic engineering run amok but the experiences of Phlox's people may be the minority in both the Coalition of Planets and the Federation that followed.

 

[SJGardner]

It gives you the feeling that other Federation species had similar stories though...and there’s genetic engineering and there’s genetic engineering. We see the Doctor do a little in Voyager, and there’s the hairbrush saves the day episode with Pulaski I forget the name of.

It looks like healing genetic defects or DNA damage (from Pulaski's rapid aging in Unnatural Selection or radiation, etc) is mostly okay, but full-on gene editing to add new beneficial traits is just unacceptable.
But now that we mentioned it, that episode contradicts this whole policy all by itself, because genetically engineered superhumans is exactly what those scientists were creating, apparently entirely legally.

 

[jaime]

The Denobulans are supposed to have avoided all the bloodshed and warfare associated with genetic engineering run amok but the experiences of Phlox's people may be the minority in both the Coalition of Planets and the Federation that followed.

It may even be the case that humanities ban wouldn’t have extended to the whole federation, but then soong happened and not knowing why (answer: the race from TNG The Chase) engineering in one species could affect another, they just banned it. Especially when it turned out some species could interbreed relatively successfully (to our knowledge Vulcan, Human, Klingon, Romulan and Betazoid Gametes are compatible. Cardassian and Bajoran also. Klingon and Trill apparently need help.)

 

[jaime]

It looks like healing genetic defects or DNA damage (from Pulaski's rapid aging in Unnatural Selection or radiation, etc) is mostly okay, but full-on gene editing to add new beneficial traits is just unacceptable.
But now that we mentioned it, that episode contradicts this whole policy all by itself, because genetically engineered superhumans is exactly what those scientists were creating, apparently entirely legally.

That one has always been the outlier. It can be rationalised, but so much of it gives me a headache. At least in part because I dislike Pulaski intently. I saw the ‘Klingon tea ceremony’ and ‘falsifying medical reports to the bridge’ in an episode the other day, and found her irritating all over again. I don’t even think much of the acting.

 

[fireproof78]

This place is more fun with mini essays.

Maybe that’s just me...

I think that I'll pass. I can be prolific in my writing but it gets ignored so I feel no reason to continue on.

 

[Doc Mugatu]

Yes, I love being contrarian. That makes me feel all warm and fuzz inside...

Okay.

Fear is a very complicated emotion and isn't rational.

Actually, that is really, REALLY wrong. Fear can be both rational and irrational.

While I have not been successful in finding real world examples,...

That should serve as a clue that perhaps you should rethink your position. No shame in that.

I don't need it to be understandable to anyone else.

Well, if you feel strong enough to go on and on against someone's position it is kind of incumbent upon you, for the sake of a sincere civil discourse, to be understandable and cite a few examples that support your POV. You have steadfastly refused. Despite that I again agree say I am more than willing to let it go at "agree to disagree." Yet, you keep going which further proves my points.

 

[fireproof78]

Okay.



Actually, that is really, REALLY wrong. Fear can be both rational and irrational.



That should serve as a clue that perhaps you should rethink your position. No shame in that.



Well, if you feel strong enough to go on and on against someone's position it is kind of incumbent upon you, for the sake of a sincere civil discourse, to be understandable and cite a few examples that support your POV. You have steadfastly refused. Despite that I again agree say I am more than willing to let it go at "agree to disagree." Yet, you keep going which further proves my points.

We cannot just discuss ideas without citation? Fear is a part of the human experience. The Federation's overreaction makes sense to me.

That's my position in a nutshell. Feel free to agree to disagree that I think the Federation overreacted and yet I still understand where they are coming from.

 

[SJGardner]

Except nuclear power IS still researched. Nuclear power plants ARE still being built. Thirdly, again, you cited several events not just one. I would also say a major difference is that any reduction was reasoned and deliberated over time. Not knee-jerk to one incident. Some physicists thought cranking up the Hadron Collider could create a Black Hole that could destroy the Earth yet we hit the "ON" button anyway.

The episode, if I remember correctly, only said they were banned as a result of the attack. It didn't say anything about how much later the ban was enacted and what exactly led up to it. It could very well be that the official investigation couldn't conclude that the synths didn't go haywire on their own, and decided to enact the ban after months of investigating and campaigning and perhaps in response to public outcry.

Fiction, by its nature, won't follow the scripts of real life, because there's simply no time to portray every single step in real time. If it's only a part of the backstory, saying synths were banned in the wake of the Utopia Planitia bombing gives the viewers enough information to get the idea. Seeing the strength of political movements rapidly rising after devastating incidents, all the surveillance- and travel-related legislation enacted after 9/11, the travel bans enacted all across the world in the wake of the migration crisis of the mid-10s, we don't need to see one specific blanket ban of one specific technology caused by one specific incident, because it's perfectly plausible the Federation could react that way.

 

[Doc Mugatu]

Yep, the spatial torpedoes can be seen as low-yield fusion warheads and thus weren't considered to be nuclear.

Which brings to mind the federation ban on stealth technology in TNG yet embracing it during the war in DS9.

 

[fireproof78]

Only through an agreement with the Romulan Empire.

 

[Racefuel]

Which brings to mind the federation ban on stealth technology in TNG yet embracing it during the war in DS9.

They had special arrangements with the Romulans. The Defiant had it only on a limited basis and at first only with a Romulan officer aboard and even then only in the Gamma quadrant.

Additionally once the Romulans were in the war all bets were off.

Edit: SNIPED AGAIN

 

[Lord Garth]

Which brings to mind the federation ban on stealth technology in TNG yet embracing it during the war in DS9.

It's amazing how quickly someone can change their position when it benefits them.

My favorite one is when Picard dresses down Worf for killing Duras. Fast-forward almost a decade later and Sisko basically tells Worf to kill Gowron, just without putting into those exact words so he could cover his ass if need be.

 

[cooleddie74]

I could see the Earth Starfleet of the 2150s not considering spatial torpedoes to be nuclear weaponry. A low yield combined with a different warhead design from those weapons used in World War III plus a lot of self-denial about their nature could lead to them not being considered nuclear weapons.

This is just a century or less after the bloodiest war in Earth's history. A lot of people probably didn't want to even think about nuclear weapons much less continue to manufacture smaller and less powerful versions of the technology.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

The Federation is surrounded by empires. If it intervened on behalf of every subject world, it would be constantly at war with all of its neighbors, and wouldn't survive long. It has to choose its wars.

Plus, the Prime Directive prohibited the Federation from interfering in the Cardassian occupation of Bajor anyway.

 

[Noname Given]

The Denobulans are supposed to have avoided all the bloodshed and warfare associated with genetic engineering run amok but the experiences of Phlox's people may be the minority in both the Coalition of Planets and the Federation that followed.

But that's because Phlox stated his race never researched or tried to modify it's genome to 'be superior' -- all their research was related to correcting genetic deformities and illnesses.

 

[Tarek71]

There is plenty of paranoia about robots. I can easily see how there would be fears, bans and overreactions to the creation of augmented beings who far exceed human capacities in many ways. I dont think a ban on genetic enhancements would be enforceable in a world like Trek. I think DS9 got it right that you would have people getting them done illicitly. And not everyone would agree with the slippery slope of superior ability leads to superior ambition which leads to dictatorship.