I completely agree. In fact, I feel that most of the characters in this episode didn't "feel true" and there were a lot of continuity errors that made me cringe. I was just providing some additional information that folks debating the clip didn't have so they could analyze it accordingly.
Star Trek Phase II: Our Shelved Episodes
- Thread starter USS Excelsior
- Start date
I can't agree with you. I really can't. It's a nasty dress down, really harsh, and it makes perfect sense - especially given context - that tears might be involved. Because young men aren't some homogenous group who all have the same reactions to the same stimuli. Just gonna throw that out there.
^Same here, which is why I thought that it was wrong to me. I would if I was in his shoes (I have a neurological condition that reacts to that, as well as trauma from the past) but I don't think that Kirk (at this point in his life) would.
IMO Kirk would be angry at himself for his failure, not crying over it.
I'd still like to see whatever footage still exists, and it doesn't need to be final, colour-corrected, full-orchestraed, THX sound FXed, final cut footage. We have many films on DVD out there which offer deleted scenes, short films, raw footage which are IMO treasures for the true film buffs.
Maurice, that's why I tried to put some context onto the scene.
Since hard drives are really expensive and fan films are on a budget, and it's been determined that TPM is beyond salvage, it's altogether possible there is no existing footage beyond what's posted. It wouldn't surprise me to find out that MS is on those same drives now and TPM is erased. (the director's family of the original MS and WWW was trying to get footage from them for posterity etc, to no avail. The guy who had the drives in storage actually moved out of state so - again - it's entirely possible that the drives have been recycled for new footage.)
Since hard drives are really expensive and fan films are on a budget, and it's been determined that TPM is beyond salvage, it's altogether possible there is no existing footage beyond what's posted. It wouldn't surprise me to find out that MS is on those same drives now and TPM is erased. (the director's family of the original MS and WWW was trying to get footage from them for posterity etc, to no avail. The guy who had the drives in storage actually moved out of state so - again - it's entirely possible that the drives have been recycled for new footage.)
well I can state that number of external drives, housings, and the TB needed per shoot was always a financial scramble at Phase II. That's what I'm going on. (I'm vaguely remembering 12 4TB drives...for three copies of the footage. Unlike film in "the old days", no one ever worried about using up extra space on HD. One director actually did 37 takes of one shot, and some directors, like David Gerrold, scripted bloopers for the fun of it.)
You could, I am sure, argue whether that is wise, prudent, etc, but that's the way it was. I can't say that's the way it is. But I can just picture the drives being re-used because of financial reasons or the storage reasons. (Why keep 12 drives in a closet with footage that is "trash"? I can think of reasons to keep them...but I can also picture someone deciding it's a waste of drives and storage space.)
You could, I am sure, argue whether that is wise, prudent, etc, but that's the way it was. I can't say that's the way it is. But I can just picture the drives being re-used because of financial reasons or the storage reasons. (Why keep 12 drives in a closet with footage that is "trash"? I can think of reasons to keep them...but I can also picture someone deciding it's a waste of drives and storage space.)
Shelved Episodes
Over in the topic about The Holiest thing there was some discussion about what happens re announcements and plans that get changed because "concrete never sets", but it seemed germane to raise it here, not so much because it's about Phase II, but because the topic here is shelved episodes.
As above, some projects get started then come to a halt, never to be completed. I'm not going to point any fingers, because I know how easy it is for a film to get stuck in neutral and how hard it can be to get them going again (helllllo Exeter), but I'm of the opinion that if people volunteer time and money to help you make a film, you really do owe them to finish it in some fashion if at all humanly possible...even if it's to rough cut together what was shot and share it only with them so they can see some fruits of their labor.
I've always been somewhat leery of announcing projects before they are in a stage where they're basically guaranteed to happen (difficult with crowd-sourced projects, I know), and, crowd-funding aside, I've never never understood creating anticipation for a non-commercial project years in advance of its planned completion, especially given how fast buzz can be created these days online. That too often leads to delays, disappointment, and "are we there yet?" cries from fans whose excitement turns to sour grapes.
YMMV.
I'm interested in what other people think on this matter.
Over in the topic about The Holiest thing there was some discussion about what happens re announcements and plans that get changed because "concrete never sets", but it seemed germane to raise it here, not so much because it's about Phase II, but because the topic here is shelved episodes.
As above, some projects get started then come to a halt, never to be completed. I'm not going to point any fingers, because I know how easy it is for a film to get stuck in neutral and how hard it can be to get them going again (helllllo Exeter), but I'm of the opinion that if people volunteer time and money to help you make a film, you really do owe them to finish it in some fashion if at all humanly possible...even if it's to rough cut together what was shot and share it only with them so they can see some fruits of their labor.
I've always been somewhat leery of announcing projects before they are in a stage where they're basically guaranteed to happen (difficult with crowd-sourced projects, I know), and, crowd-funding aside, I've never never understood creating anticipation for a non-commercial project years in advance of its planned completion, especially given how fast buzz can be created these days online. That too often leads to delays, disappointment, and "are we there yet?" cries from fans whose excitement turns to sour grapes.
YMMV.
I'm interested in what other people think on this matter.
I think the point about owing to people who volunteer to see what their work looks like is well taken.
Sadly even when we have labeled clips as rough or sound not final, some people still are extremely critical of it. Which is why We have not of late released any "rough" clips recently, we let our finished product speak for itself. Unless Greg has anything to say
I think people would actually get a kick out of Spock on the bridge talking on the intercom with Spock in Sickbay and Spock in Engineering (he's standing in the background in those sets when Spock on the bridge is talking to McCoy and Scotty - I suggested we film a bunch of footage of Spock running through the corridors to connect them) but, in all honesty, there are gaping holes in the story that aren't filmed. That's why it was shelved. Not because it's not pretty enough. (qualifier - speaking from my knowledge when I was part of Phase II. If something has changed in the reason to shelve it, I'll let Greg add that.)
You remind me of seeing the trailer for "Ironman 3" in theaters when I knew the person doing the costumes, and knew for a fact that they hadn't started filming yet. When I asked him how the heck they had a trailer he said "watch it - it's all VFX and shots from older movies". So, you can make a trailer when you can't make an episode or film...
Re: Shelved Episodes
I'm not sure you're interested in what I think on this matter....but here goes (with as much tact as I can muster).
I DO believe that if people volunteer time and money you DO owe them to provide whatever you can in the vein of "Finished product". Even if it's "here's a copy of the dailies to everyone who worked on this episode/project" and high quality versions to the actors so they can add to their reel.
People that donate their vacation time, sweat equity, etc are doing it for the love of the project. They deserve to at least be able to see a "souvenir" of why they did it.
I know that Phase II, in particular, will probably have their stock answer "fans are complaining we are taking too long in post for the episodes we ARE finishing and you want us to devote time and energy into stuff we aren't finishing? That will only delay the stuff you actually want!!" And it's a valid argument for any production still producing episodes.
Except it's not. There are always people in a production that aren't actually part of post that would volunteer to make sure footage gets shared with at least the cast and crew that worked on it. For example, John Carrigan took it upon himself to fund and finish the "No Win Scenario" vignette that was shelved. I know another production company offered to pay the cost of finishing the "Back to the Wild Wild West" episode in honor of the deceased director, Mark Burchett. When that was rejected, an ill-fated effort was made to obtain a copy of the footage of both that and the original "Mind Sifter" so a fitting tribute could be done for Mark's work for his family and "studio family" in his native area. Now, clearly, there is every reason in the universe not to want competing footage from two versions of one episode to be out and about in the world - but we're only talking about a rough edit and bts stuff provided to the cast and crew who worked on it (done by a trusted person). I do believe they are owed at least that much - and I am just using P2 as an example, my opinion applies to any and all such shelved or never to be finished projects.
I do think that if the rough footage from The Protracted Man, Mind-Sifter I, Buck Rogers Begins, The Night of the Golden Spikes (BTWWW) etc were handed to the cast and crews of those projects it would be nearly impossible to keep it to them. Yes, we want to think everyone is noble. But no doubt, someone would share stuff they wanted to brag about on YouTube or Vimeo and the production in question (in this case CEC) would be spinning their wheels and wasting time both trying to get it pulled down and in explaining various whys and whens for these dead projects (as Jamie indicated in his post) when that time and energy would best be spent on the current projects instead of countless "no, it's not being released and we know it looks and sounds crappy".
Should a shut down production release this kind of stuff to the general public I think there would be an almost universal "that is awesome!" kind of response from the public, if only for support and nostalgia reasons.
So..in short, I think it would cause issues for currently running production companies, but I think all projects need to be shared with the folks who even donated one afternoon of their time and love - and certainly with those who invested tens of thousands of dollars. It's literally all they get for their sweat equity, sleepless nights and stomach cramps from bad local food.
Over in the topic about The Holiest thing there was some discussion about what happens re announcements and plans that get changed because "concrete never sets", but it seemed germane to raise it here, not so much because it's about Phase II, but because the topic here is shelved episodes.
As above, some projects get started then come to a halt, never to be completed. I'm not going to point any fingers, because I know how easy it is for a film to get stuck in neutral and how hard it can be to get them going again (helllllo Exeter), but I'm of the opinion that if people volunteer time and money to help you make a film, you really do owe them to finish it in some fashion if at all humanly possible...even if it's to rough cut together what was shot and share it only with them so they can see some fruits of their labor.
I've always been somewhat leery of announcing projects before they are in a stage where they're basically guaranteed to happen (difficult with crowd-sourced projects, I know), and, crowd-funding aside, I've never never understood creating anticipation for a non-commercial project years in advance of its planned completion, especially given how fast buzz can be created these days online. That too often leads to delays, disappointment, and "are we there yet?" cries from fans whose excitement turns to sour grapes.
YMMV.
I'm interested in what other people think on this matter.
I'm not sure you're interested in what I think on this matter....but here goes (with as much tact as I can muster).
I DO believe that if people volunteer time and money you DO owe them to provide whatever you can in the vein of "Finished product". Even if it's "here's a copy of the dailies to everyone who worked on this episode/project" and high quality versions to the actors so they can add to their reel.
People that donate their vacation time, sweat equity, etc are doing it for the love of the project. They deserve to at least be able to see a "souvenir" of why they did it.
I know that Phase II, in particular, will probably have their stock answer "fans are complaining we are taking too long in post for the episodes we ARE finishing and you want us to devote time and energy into stuff we aren't finishing? That will only delay the stuff you actually want!!" And it's a valid argument for any production still producing episodes.
Except it's not. There are always people in a production that aren't actually part of post that would volunteer to make sure footage gets shared with at least the cast and crew that worked on it. For example, John Carrigan took it upon himself to fund and finish the "No Win Scenario" vignette that was shelved. I know another production company offered to pay the cost of finishing the "Back to the Wild Wild West" episode in honor of the deceased director, Mark Burchett. When that was rejected, an ill-fated effort was made to obtain a copy of the footage of both that and the original "Mind Sifter" so a fitting tribute could be done for Mark's work for his family and "studio family" in his native area. Now, clearly, there is every reason in the universe not to want competing footage from two versions of one episode to be out and about in the world - but we're only talking about a rough edit and bts stuff provided to the cast and crew who worked on it (done by a trusted person). I do believe they are owed at least that much - and I am just using P2 as an example, my opinion applies to any and all such shelved or never to be finished projects.
I do think that if the rough footage from The Protracted Man, Mind-Sifter I, Buck Rogers Begins, The Night of the Golden Spikes (BTWWW) etc were handed to the cast and crews of those projects it would be nearly impossible to keep it to them. Yes, we want to think everyone is noble. But no doubt, someone would share stuff they wanted to brag about on YouTube or Vimeo and the production in question (in this case CEC) would be spinning their wheels and wasting time both trying to get it pulled down and in explaining various whys and whens for these dead projects (as Jamie indicated in his post) when that time and energy would best be spent on the current projects instead of countless "no, it's not being released and we know it looks and sounds crappy".
Should a shut down production release this kind of stuff to the general public I think there would be an almost universal "that is awesome!" kind of response from the public, if only for support and nostalgia reasons.
So..in short, I think it would cause issues for currently running production companies, but I think all projects need to be shared with the folks who even donated one afternoon of their time and love - and certainly with those who invested tens of thousands of dollars. It's literally all they get for their sweat equity, sleepless nights and stomach cramps from bad local food.
Re: Shelved Episodes
The only reasons I can see for making these pre-announcements are to drum up people and money. However, the actual reasons seem to be ego. I feel like (and I haven't done a formal study) there are at least two groups with planned fan films with posters and trailers which never produce a film for each group that does. OK, I really feel like there are FOUR for each actual release, but two seems easy to defend.
No. Some viewers treat fan films as if it were a polished product and discuss it as if the principles were paid thousands or millions to produce them. In a perfect world, only people who can enjoy fan films for the expressions of love that they are would watch them, but in the real world people who complain about Enterprise and Voyager also complain about Phase II and other fan films. People would point endlessly to the release for years before it faded. The release of a rough cut of Blood and Fire Part 2 was a huge mistake. The complaints drove me up the wall, and I just watch this stuff. I can't imagine being the producer enduring it.
... I've always been somewhat leery of announcing projects before they are in a stage where they're basically guaranteed to happen (difficult with crowd-sourced projects, I know), and, crowd-funding aside, I've never never understood creating anticipation for a non-commercial project years in advance of its planned completion, especially given how fast buzz can be created these days online. That too often leads to delays, disappointment, and "are we there yet?" cries from fans whose excitement turns to sour grapes.
YMMV.
I'm interested in what other people think on this matter.
The only reasons I can see for making these pre-announcements are to drum up people and money. However, the actual reasons seem to be ego. I feel like (and I haven't done a formal study) there are at least two groups with planned fan films with posters and trailers which never produce a film for each group that does. OK, I really feel like there are FOUR for each actual release, but two seems easy to defend.
No. Some viewers treat fan films as if it were a polished product and discuss it as if the principles were paid thousands or millions to produce them. In a perfect world, only people who can enjoy fan films for the expressions of love that they are would watch them, but in the real world people who complain about Enterprise and Voyager also complain about Phase II and other fan films. People would point endlessly to the release for years before it faded. The release of a rough cut of Blood and Fire Part 2 was a huge mistake. The complaints drove me up the wall, and I just watch this stuff. I can't imagine being the producer enduring it.
Re: Shelved Episodes
It's not easy... and I am just an Assistant to the Producers.... (among other things)
... I've always been somewhat leery of announcing projects before they are in a stage where they're basically guaranteed to happen (difficult with crowd-sourced projects, I know), and, crowd-funding aside, I've never never understood creating anticipation for a non-commercial project years in advance of its planned completion, especially given how fast buzz can be created these days online. That too often leads to delays, disappointment, and "are we there yet?" cries from fans whose excitement turns to sour grapes.
YMMV.
I'm interested in what other people think on this matter.
The only reasons I can see for making these pre-announcements are to drum up people and money. However, the actual reasons seem to be ego. I feel like (and I haven't done a formal study) there are at least two groups with planned fan films with posters and trailers which never produce a film for each group that does. OK, I really feel like there are FOUR for each actual release, but two seems easy to defend.
No. Some viewers treat fan films as if it were a polished product and discuss it as if the principles were paid thousands or millions to produce them. In a perfect world, only people who can enjoy fan films for the expressions of love that they are would watch them, but in the real world people who complain about Enterprise and Voyager also complain about Phase II and other fan films. People would point endlessly to the release for years before it faded. The release of a rough cut of Blood and Fire Part 2 was a huge mistake. The complaints drove me up the wall, and I just watch this stuff. I can't imagine being the producer enduring it.
It's not easy... and I am just an Assistant to the Producers.... (among other things)
Re: Shelved Episodes
So, was Back To the Wild Wild West abandoned?
Um, hello, what did I lead with?
So, was Back To the Wild Wild West abandoned?
I was told by the party that asked to purchase all my interest in the "Back to the Wild Wild West" project that James informed him that, under no circumstances in hell, would the project be continued and it was to be considered abandoned and dead. (which is why he was pulling his offer to purchase my interest in the project) I have no first-hand information, just this second hand information.
Several of us have formed another production company that will produce things to honor Mark, and will also give out grants to independent filmmakers. The first project is a series about people making a fan film...
Several of us have formed another production company that will produce things to honor Mark, and will also give out grants to independent filmmakers. The first project is a series about people making a fan film...
