Star Trek morality test - best and worst episodes

[I am not Spock]

I'd also add The Offspring for TNG. About the morality of forcibly stripping away someone's child, when he's been a perfectly model parent. And about an android's rights: do they have the right to create a child. Excellent outing

 

[sonak]

Spectre Of The Gun

From the first time I saw this episode before I understood the nuances of morality etc, I knew that it was established that the UFP did not barge its way in and force contact with cultures who did not desire contact. Unless...

And the part that really pisses me off is that frankly there has to my recollection never been a compelling reason given why Starfleet Command ordered Kirk to force contact with the Melkotians. Neither in the episode itself nor later on in expanded universe materials.

It was a bullshit action for no reason at all.

Didn't they force contact in The Corbomite Maneuver and A Taste of Armageddon?

There are a host of episodes of TOS where the Federation and Starfleet appear to be forcing Kirk to go somewhere and break the prime directive. There are also some episodes where Kirk himself decides to break the prime directive for no apparent reason or a bad reason.

Upon further viewings, you can start to see Kirk & the Federation as the bad guy.

I know we debate and debate and debate Kirk and the PD, and I can see the arguments saying how Kirk is all right in the case of The Apple (I think they're wrong but...) but here? How..HOW can you not say that Kirk, upon his own authority, destroying those computers and changing the entire political relationship of those two planets is not a violation?

The PD does apply to post-warp societies. It's not just about contamination, it's also about interfering in the politics of other worlds.

the TOS PD was much more flexible and defensible a concept than the TNG PD. The TNG PD became fundamentalist nonsense, that if applied literally, would mean that the Federation would have to be isolationist to adhere to it.

 

[Anwar]

The PD applies to unwarranted or unwanted intervention. If Starfleet is dragged into situations against their will by the locals, or if they are asked formally for aid, then the PD no longer applies.

 

[Dale Sams]

The PD applies to unwarranted or unwanted intervention. If Starfleet is dragged into situations against their will by the locals, or if they are asked formally for aid, then the PD no longer applies.

Uhhh...no. Kirk and company were dragged in chains in Bread and Circuses and it still applied. Just because 400 people are threatened doesn't give Kirk the right to change the status quo between billions of people. Not to mention Kirk was warned off. Just because Ambassador Ironside tells him to proceed doesn't justify bringing two planets to Defcon 1.

 

[JarodRussell]

I great the impression the Dominion is a very "carrot and stick" form of government. The Vorta are designed to be pleasant and avuncular even if they're plotting genocide. The Jem'hadar are extreme professionals at all times.

Under the Dominion, unless they murdered all humans everywhere, everything would be relatively okay as long as you were alright with having no say in anything you did for the rest of your lives or children's lives.

And of course no freedom of speech, no free press, no fair legal system, and such.

 

[Wynterhawk]

I think someone mentioned "Devil in the Dark", but I'd like to agree with that one.

 

[TheRoyalFamily]

The PD applies to unwarranted or unwanted intervention. If Starfleet is dragged into situations against their will by the locals, or if they are asked formally for aid, then the PD no longer applies.

Not really. Gowron requested aid during the civil war, under the terms of the alliance, and still Starfleet refused, citing the PD.

Of course, Picard has a notoriously broad view of what the PD forbids him to do.

 

[Bad Thoughts]

Of course, Picard has a notoriously broad view of what the PD forbids him to do.

Am I missing something? I just viewed the section in which Gowron's ship is attacked in orbit, and Picard makes no reference to the Prime Directive. He only states non-involvement in internal affairs. I thought that the Prime Directive referred only to primitive (pre-warp) societies. The question of Federation involvement in the domestic affairs of other governments need no be reflected in it. Was something retconned?

 

[Anwar]

The PD applies to unwarranted or unwanted intervention. If Starfleet is dragged into situations against their will by the locals, or if they are asked formally for aid, then the PD no longer applies.

Not really. Gowron requested aid during the civil war, under the terms of the alliance, and still Starfleet refused, citing the PD.

Of course, Picard has a notoriously broad view of what the PD forbids him to do.

Gowron was not recognized by everyone in the empire as the legitimate leader of the Klingon Empire. Yes, Picard arbitrated for him but that Duras had enough supporters to challenge him in such a way shows that this wasn't what all the Klingons thought. If the Feds helped out someone who was not recognized at the legitimate leader by the people and more or less "installed" him it would ultimately damage Gowron's position and be seen as the Feds interfering in an internal dispute that the Klingon people did not wholly want them interfering in.

 

[Charles Phipps]

And of course no freedom of speech, no free press, no fair legal system, and such.

Like I said, the Cardassians thought they were the smart ones until they were ordered to die by the millions.

 

[Dale Sams]

Earlier I blasted Kirk for violating the PD in "A Taste of Armageddon"...I just reread the teaser transcript, and Ambassador Fox doesn't 'lightly suggest he has command of this mission'...he drags Kirk kicking and screaming into the situation. Fox says 'thousands of lives have been lost on this route in the last 20 years*,lives that could have been saved if we had a treaty port**...and we mean to have it"

It's Starfleet that is blasting away the Prime Directive, all Kirk is doing giving Starfleet what they wanted.

*Who knows why. Orion Pirates, dangerous anomalies.

** F**k those natives, right Starfleet?

 

[Belz...]

Did the Dominion dismantle Cardassia's ship?

They hadn't won yet.

 

[Belz...]

Under the Dominion, unless they murdered all humans everywhere, everything would be relatively okay as long as you were alright with having no say in anything you did for the rest of your lives or children's lives.

And that's totally not like slavery.

 

[Charles Phipps]

Under the Dominion, unless they murdered all humans everywhere, everything would be relatively okay as long as you were alright with having no say in anything you did for the rest of your lives or children's lives.

And that's totally not like slavery.

Yea.

I think it says something about how little we value freedom people need to equivocate my post with why that's bad.



It's a totalitarian government. The fact it makes really good ice cream and won't go on random massacres is not a reason to like it.

 

[Bad Thoughts]

Under the Dominion, unless they murdered all humans everywhere, everything would be relatively okay as long as you were alright with having no say in anything you did for the rest of your lives or children's lives.

And that's totally not like slavery.

No, oppression and slavery are different. Slaves can't speak freely, but they also can't determine their own movements or dispose of their own labor. Unless you can show that subjects of the dominion could not do these things, their enslavement was more euphamism. If there is any way it could be said that the dominiom practiced slavery, it was with the Jemhadar, who resemble Wolof slaves.

 

[Charles Phipps]

No, oppression and slavery are different. Slaves can't speak freely, but they also can't determine their own movements or dispose of their own labor. Unless you can show that subjects of the dominion could not do these things, their enslavement was more euphamism. If there is any way it could be said that the dominiom practiced slavery, it was with the Jemhadar, who resemble Wolof slaves.

When the government is the slavemasters, it's serfdom.

 

[Bad Thoughts]

In serfdom, the peasant is tied to the land or to the lord via the manor house. The government's role is secondary.

 

[Nightdiamond]

Weren't they asked for help, though? It's my understanding that if another goverment asks for Federation aid that they're allowed to step in and provide whatever asisstance they can. Dukat contacted Sisko to ask for help in getting the Detapa Council members to safety. I suppose Sisko could have said no, but that's not Starfleet's style.--Sran

That is true, but sometimes the whole thing seems unfair and uneven. If I'm not mistaken, Sisko went out of his way to contact Cardassia first, then reacted when Dukat asked for help.

They engaged the Klingons with force, sent ships, everything.

And Cardassia and the Federation had a pretty shaky relationship with Cardassia's plots and violating treaties between them.

When Gowron requested help from Picard based on their treaty, he flat out refused, (based on the internal affairs doctrine) but later he and Starfleet gave indirect military assistance.

The Bajorans were brutally oppressed by the Cardassians. One refugee said he resented the Federation because they stood by as innocent bystanders were massacred, knowing full well what was happening.

One real life example may be why the U.S or U.N will intervene in some affairs, but not take any action in others for examples like Darfar, Croatia, Libya or Syria.

What makes The Fed (or even US) decide to intervene militarily in some affairs, yet ignore or do little in others?

 

[Charles Phipps]

In serfdom, the peasant is tied to the land or to the lord via the manor house. The government's role is secondary.

No, the lord IS the government. Which is that you are the property thereof.

 

[Captain Clark Terrell]

What makes The Fed (or even US) decide to intervene militarily in some affairs, yet ignore or do little in others?

Don't have a great answer to that question. In the end, the Prime Directive seems like it's not any different from other rules in that it's open to interpretation. Every officer must decide how and when it actually applies, knowing that it's often easier to ask forgiveness than permission. Sisko's actions could have been interpreted as a violation of the PD: OTOH, the Klingons were stationed at DS9 just before they went into Cardassian space, so Sisko could have argued that they'd already dragged (albeit indirectly) Starfleet into the situation.

The discussion in the ward room is interesting. Dax doesn't say that they're violating the PD by warning Cardassia. She says, "The Klingons are still our allies. If we warned the Cardassians, we'd be betraying them."

O'Brien follows that with a comment about the Klingons being right. Whether that's because he actually believed it or because of his own hatred of Cardassians is something I don't know the answer to. Regardless, it's clear that no one sees helping Dukat as a violation of Federation rules. Like anything else in fiction, the PD is probably just another plot-device used to advance the story rather than being an actual rule.

--Sran