Wasn't that the supposition of my question: what if they joined the Dominion (not defeated by them)?
Star Trek morality test - best and worst episodes
- Thread starter Charles Phipps
- Start date
Well, in that case, I think the Federation would have been permitted to keep its fleet, at least initially. But there's no way to know if they'd have been allowed to do so longterm.
--Sran
I think that was a point. The Dominion pretends to ally with locals then slowly removes their allies weapons and rights once they're finished.
It happens a lot with imperial societies.
The Cardassians think they're getting stuff out of the deal but they're not.
Depends. The AQ is still a long ways off. The pros of leaving the Cardys and Breen in charge is they don't have to worry about stretching their resources.
The Cons are that typical occupying forces forment tons of chaos and dissension. You need to change the hearts and minds of your enemies, and you can't do that when your troops are raping people.
Now The Breen never exhibited the clusterf**k political intrigue the Cardassians did, but did engage in slave labor.
At the end of the day, it'd probably be best to leave the control up to the Vorta and Jem'hadar, with the Breen being given a substantial place in things.
The "Dear Doctor" episode was an odd piece of pseudo scientific reasoning.
The basic idea was that if an alien culture has a certain disease that is killing the entire population, (maybe it's a genetic disease) then it was meant to be, an evolutionary dead end. Decision--do nothing and don't interfere.
If I'm not mistaken the Doctor actually had the cure to the alien's illness, but argued not to use it.
But if a disease is killing a Federation culture, then it's a disease that you must find a cure for to stop it before it does more damage. Decision- find a cure and when you do, use it.
Conclusion (for Federation cultures) - it was a disease and diseases have cures and the first step is to find a cure and use it. WTF ?/
The danger of mixing weird science with some concept of non interference --very weird conclusions.
The basic idea was that if an alien culture has a certain disease that is killing the entire population, (maybe it's a genetic disease) then it was meant to be, an evolutionary dead end. Decision--do nothing and don't interfere.
If I'm not mistaken the Doctor actually had the cure to the alien's illness, but argued not to use it.
But if a disease is killing a Federation culture, then it's a disease that you must find a cure for to stop it before it does more damage. Decision- find a cure and when you do, use it.
Conclusion (for Federation cultures) - it was a disease and diseases have cures and the first step is to find a cure and use it. WTF ?/
The danger of mixing weird science with some concept of non interference --very weird conclusions.
I think the problems with "Dear Doctor" can be summarized as following:
1. Star Trek is about the diversity of lifeforms. This is about making a monoculture.
2. Star Trek is about the value of all-life both animal and sentient: This chooses smart people over stupid people.
3. The PD is about a living culture: You can't have a living culture when one is dead.
4. Archer and Phlox aren't so much monsters as acting grossly out of character since both have shown a desire to help pre-warp cultures in far less dire straights.
5. Cultural contamination isn't an issue anymore when the Ferengi already have visited regularly.
6. If the primitives evolving with the other advanced race, what would stop them from doing so without them?
7. If you substituted the closest RL parallel, it would be Native Americans dying out for Europeans to take their place (rather than the high tech vs. low tech depicted in the show)--which is so incredibly offensive I can't even begin to analyze that.
8. How is it that Vulcans can mate with Humans and Humans with Klingons but these guys can't mate with people on their planet? You know, another acceptable alternative.
(You guys can get a natural immunity by cross breeding!)
9. Archer says we didn't come out here to play God. He's saying that...in a STARSHIP. Which is about as close to God as you can get.
10. It implies inaction is somehow less of an infraction than action itself.
It just feels very Anti-Roddenberry all round since the message of the episode boils down to.
"The superior race should inherit the Earth."
1. Star Trek is about the diversity of lifeforms. This is about making a monoculture.
2. Star Trek is about the value of all-life both animal and sentient: This chooses smart people over stupid people.
3. The PD is about a living culture: You can't have a living culture when one is dead.
4. Archer and Phlox aren't so much monsters as acting grossly out of character since both have shown a desire to help pre-warp cultures in far less dire straights.
5. Cultural contamination isn't an issue anymore when the Ferengi already have visited regularly.
6. If the primitives evolving with the other advanced race, what would stop them from doing so without them?
7. If you substituted the closest RL parallel, it would be Native Americans dying out for Europeans to take their place (rather than the high tech vs. low tech depicted in the show)--which is so incredibly offensive I can't even begin to analyze that.
8. How is it that Vulcans can mate with Humans and Humans with Klingons but these guys can't mate with people on their planet? You know, another acceptable alternative.
(You guys can get a natural immunity by cross breeding!)
9. Archer says we didn't come out here to play God. He's saying that...in a STARSHIP. Which is about as close to God as you can get.
10. It implies inaction is somehow less of an infraction than action itself.
It just feels very Anti-Roddenberry all round since the message of the episode boils down to.
"The superior race should inherit the Earth."
While the advanced species might be currently suppressing the primitives, there was no dialog as to the advanced attempting to kill off the primitive.
So why the need for one of them to die off, for the other to prosper?
The Xindi apparently made it work.
Or, let the black plague completely eradicate all life in Europe, so that those nice folk in the near/middle east can then replace them.
And then there's Neanderthals and Homo Sapiens.
To be fair, there are indication that not all Trek species can inter-breed. There was initially doubt that Jadzia and Worf would be able to have children.
This script must have gone through 6 or 7 rewrites because Phlox actually goes out of his way to say the modern culture WASN'T suppressing them and they'd given them their own continent.
by your definition, just about any government other than an extreme, right-wing libertarian one would be an oppressive tyranny. Most democratic, "free" governments regulate economic activity, many (social democracies, especially) to a large extent, and many governments(conservative ones, especially) regulate social behavior and lifestyle choices.
So again, the question isn't "is there control?' it's about the amount and the intentions behind it. Otherwise, we're all prisoners to some extent.
I great the impression the Dominion is a very "carrot and stick" form of government. The Vorta are designed to be pleasant and avuncular even if they're plotting genocide. The Jem'hadar are extreme professionals at all times.
Under the Dominion, unless they murdered all humans everywhere, everything would be relatively okay as long as you were alright with having no say in anything you did for the rest of your lives or children's lives.
Under the Dominion, unless they murdered all humans everywhere, everything would be relatively okay as long as you were alright with having no say in anything you did for the rest of your lives or children's lives.
Spectre Of The Gun
From the first time I saw this episode before I understood the nuances of morality etc, I knew that it was established that the UFP did not barge its way in and force contact with cultures who did not desire contact. Unless...
And the part that really pisses me off is that frankly there has to my recollection never been a compelling reason given why Starfleet Command ordered Kirk to force contact with the Melkotians. Neither in the episode itself nor later on in expanded universe materials.
It was a bullshit action for no reason at all.
From the first time I saw this episode before I understood the nuances of morality etc, I knew that it was established that the UFP did not barge its way in and force contact with cultures who did not desire contact. Unless...
And the part that really pisses me off is that frankly there has to my recollection never been a compelling reason given why Starfleet Command ordered Kirk to force contact with the Melkotians. Neither in the episode itself nor later on in expanded universe materials.
It was a bullshit action for no reason at all.
There are a host of episodes of TOS where the Federation and Starfleet appear to be forcing Kirk to go somewhere and break the prime directive. There are also some episodes where Kirk himself decides to break the prime directive for no apparent reason or a bad reason.
Upon further viewings, you can start to see Kirk & the Federation as the bad guy.
I know we debate and debate and debate Kirk and the PD, and I can see the arguments saying how Kirk is all right in the case of The Apple (I think they're wrong but...) but here? How..HOW can you not say that Kirk, upon his own authority, destroying those computers and changing the entire political relationship of those two planets is not a violation?
The PD does apply to post-warp societies. It's not just about contamination, it's also about interfering in the politics of other worlds.
Prescisely. It's the reason why the Federation wasn't allowed to support Gowron's petition to lead the High Council in 2367. Starfleet considered the matter "an internal affair of the Klingon Empire," so Picard wasn't allowed to intervene once his duties as Arbiter of Succession were finished.
He was allowed to stop the Romulans from shipping supplies to the Duras sisters because they were interfering in Klingon politics, but that was as far as Starfleet allowed him to go.
--Sran
Privately, I think the PD is largely up to interpretation. The whole fact Starfleet wouldn't support Bajor against the Cardassians seems like [insert expletive].
Unlike when they instantly came to Cardassia's rescue with military force when the Klingons threatened to invade.
In fact they came to Cardassia's rescue twice.
RE; Dear Doctor--the more you analyze this episode the wronger it is.
I don't get the logic--just because a disease is genetic based, that means it was meant to be an evolutionary dead end and no one should bother finding a cure.
That sounds more like more like a philosophy than actual medical science.
Phlox said he already found a cure for the disease.
If you can find a disease for a cure, then it wasn't an evolutionary dead end.
What would Starfleet do if earth had an epidemic that was hard to cure? They'd find a cure and use it.
I think I would rather have a Crusher or Julian working on the case if it were my planet that had such a disease.
The only point I do get is the worry that the one culture was exploiting the other.
I'm sure that's the case, but can you really blame Starfleet for that? Even the Federation has to prioritize. Romulans mucking with the Klingon High Council is a bigger deal than Cardassians supplying arms to a Bajoran resistance movement.
I don't mean to suggest that giving up the wormhole wouldn't have been a big deal for Starfleet, but war against the combined forces of the Klingons (under the Duras sisters) and the Romulans would have been much more danagerous. Picard had the right idea when he argued for blocking Romulan supply lines. Sisko had the right idea, too. He just used a different approach in exposing the Cardassians involvement in the Circle.
--Sran
Weren't they asked for help, though? It's my understanding that if another goverment asks for Federation aid that they're allowed to step in and provide whatever asisstance they can. Dukat contacted Sisko to ask for help in getting the Detapa Council members to safety. I suppose Sisko could have said no, but that's not Starfleet's style.
--Sran
Mostly it annoyed because the Feddies were at war with the Cardassians at the time.
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