The Enterprise has a crew of 430, in the orginal pilot it was something like 200. So perhaps 200 is the minium number required to man necessary posts for 24. I.e 50 in 6hr shifts. or around 70 in 80hr shifts. The rest of the crew being scientists in various disciplines.
Which is a ton of people.
Whilst the 1701 had phaser crews in S1, they appeared to have been replaced in later seasons by direct fire control from the bridge.
It should have been direct fire control the whole time. How hard is it to move the "fire" button from the phaser room to the bridge?
Also, see my analysis where I establish that oral fire control would put one at a great disadvantage in an actual battle.
EXAMPLE BELOW: TWOK
Kirk - does not go by the book with Reliant. He get's fooled by a simple ruse. The more machine-like Saavik tells him what to do, but she gets shut down by Spock (bro's before ho's).
KIRK: This is damned peculiar. ...Yellow Alert.
SAAVIK: Energise defence fields.
---People on the bridge push buttons and we see gadgets activating. It takes about 6 seconds after Saavik gives the order for that order to be implemented.----
UHURA: I'm getting a voice message. They say their Chambers coil is overloading their Comm system.
KIRK: Spock?
SPOCK: Scanning. Their coil emissions are normal.
[Reliant bridge]
JOACHIM: They still haven't raised their shields.
KHAN: Raise ours.
JOACHIM: Their shields are going up
KHAN: Lock phasers on target.
JOACHIM: Locking phasers on target.
[Enterprise bridge]
SPOCK: They're locking phasers!
KIRK: Raise shields!
---Too late Kirk! You had ten seconds after Reliant started raising her shields to deliver this order. You had nearly 4 seconds after Reliant locked phasers!-----
If Data were in command and directly wired to the ship's control systems, this would have turned out differently. Remember First Contact?
DATA: Zero point six eight seconds, sir. For an android ...that is nearly an eternity.
Losing the first engagement with Khan put him at an advantage throughout the film. Capt. Data - hardwired into the ship would not have lost that engagement.
Everything in Trek seems to be semi-automated. Whether or not you need people depends on the needs of the plot.
What matters for my argument is that at NO time should we see people manually running out the guns (pulling up deck-grates etc.) on a Starship.
Doesn't matter. The old stuff has it and is thus Steampunk. The new stuff claims continuity with it and is implicated with it. And there is plenty of the new stuff which is Steampunk on its own.
At the point that an automated system empirically has a safety and overall performance record that matches or exceeds that of human operators, I have NO rational reason to say no.
EX: Elevators work fine without human operators. There was a time when elevators had pilots because they needed them and later, because it made old-timers feel good to have an authority figure with them pushing the buttons. Today, elevators are automated.
We're at the point with aircraft where they can fly themselves, but where the public isn't ready to hop into a pilotless plane yet. In 50 years, no one will care. And right now no one cares that planes without passengers don't have pilots (RC and automated drones) aboard.
Fortunately, computers can be programmed to learn, just like people. Computers can be programmed to make probabilistic guesses with limited info, just like people working from their gut instinct.
As an autonomous agent.
Behold! And Behold!
Can you operate your body? It's under mind control.
LOL, it would be more comfortable to maximize space. Those who have been in space modules on the ground and in micro-gravity report that the spaces are much bigger when you can access them more than just one location (i.e., the arbitrarily assigned floor).
This is the future. People have been off terra for hundreds of years. They've been in space for a while. They can handle it. They haven't just scooped your great grandmother off the deck of a sailing ship.
2.>Artifical gravity could in theroy fail. (the reason why we don't see it on the show that often is that it isn't feseable to do it on a TV budget)
Don't make me get Timo on this point. He is relentless on this one. Artificial gravity is the last system to fail.
And so what? When artificial gravity fails you float. BFD.
Whilst space is 3 dimensional you could in theory draw an imginary place running through the centre plane of our galaxy and use that as referrance for up being up and down being down. For all we know half the time the hips fly upside down so to speak. So if you are stadning on the ship looking out you wouldn't have the sense of flying upside down due to gravity pulling you up rather than down as would occur if you tried walking on a celling. As for exterior shots we are viewing through a camera (for lack of a better term) if that is also upside down we wouldn't see something as being upside down.
This makes no sense to me. Are you saying that they wouldn't be able to navigate if they didn't have a fixed line-of-sight to surrounding stars?
Kirk did do something, he ordered Yellow Alert. In ST termionology. this is more or less bring weapons and defenses to a state of readiness but to not activate them. So from Green to Red it might take a several seconds to fully go from green to red, however Yellow to Red might be a couple of seconds.
Now I admit it's been a while since I watched ST, but where did this 10 second time come from. Is that the length of the scene?
If it is your assuming a liner sequence of events, instead of a concurrent series events.
As has already been mentioned it is not steampunk but more akin to Zeerust.
No one is saying that automated systems aren't safe or less prone to mistakes than humans but if an automated system fails what happens then?
I would imagine in fifty years time we might have hypersonic jets capable of flying from London to Sydney in a few years.
So whilst people might be willing to accept automation on technology that has proven it'sself over several decades. It might not be the case with newer technology.
Whilst computers can be programmed to learn and make great tools. The best computer is still the human brain.
Yes very nice sat phones, what's the distance on them. Given that satelites can be anwhere from a few hundred to tens of thousands of Km in space.
And I said in THEORY artifical gravity could fail, I then went on to point out the reason we don't see it is due to budgetary reasons for a TV show. If cost wasn't an issue I suspect we might have seen it more often.
^No I remember the M5 doing that, I also recall a Human Commander deciding not to fire on the helpless Enterprise when the crew managed to disable the M5. The logical thing to do would have been to blow the Enterprise out of space. Which a cold logical computer would mostly likely have done. Fortunantly for Kirk and co, a Human decided not do.
From which perspective are trying to argue, YARN? From a fictional perspective, or from what you consider reality? It's already been pointed out to you that the needs of drama are different from what will happen in reality.
"Machines are logical" is one of the most misunderstood phrases of the technology era, considering that most people (ironically, thanks to Star Trek) don't really understand what "logical" means.^No I remember the M5 doing that, I also recall a Human Commander deciding not to fire on the helpless Enterprise when the crew managed to disable the M5. The logical thing to do would have been to blow the Enterprise out of space. Which a cold logical computer would mostly likely have done. Fortunantly for Kirk and co, a Human decided not do.
Machines are logical.
Humans are not logical.
Not following the logical course of action led to a good result once a fictional space drama.
Therefore, machines should not control spaceships.
...I want my roomba too do that now. Too bad my roommate and I only have cats."Machines are logical" is one of the most misunderstood phrases of the technology era, considering that most people (ironically, thanks to Star Trek) don't really understand what "logical" means.^No I remember the M5 doing that, I also recall a Human Commander deciding not to fire on the helpless Enterprise when the crew managed to disable the M5. The logical thing to do would have been to blow the Enterprise out of space. Which a cold logical computer would mostly likely have done. Fortunantly for Kirk and co, a Human decided not do.
Machines are logical.
Humans are not logical.
Not following the logical course of action led to a good result once a fictional space drama.
Therefore, machines should not control spaceships.
Spockly-logical is really a form of rigid empiricism and philosophical pragmatism. It's called "logical," but it's really just a form of rigid self-methodology applied to every possible aspect of life.
Machines are logical in the way that there is a limited number of ways they can evaluate a problem: if A then B; if Not-A then C; if Not-A and Not-D then E, and so on. The more number of choices you give it, the more the machine can be said to be "smart."
An artificial intelligence programmed to eliminate possible responses until it finds the best one (Siri, for example) can be said to be "logical" insofar as how it operates, but that has nothing to do with the decision it finally picks. You can PROGRAM a machine to exercise compassion if you assign a high enough logical value to actions that engender it. The interesting thing is to assign humanlike (or even animal-like) motives to a machine that is ultimately driven by logic anyway. In Wall-E, for example, you have one robot--Eve--that is programmed to do nothing else except find evidence of life and return it to the ship's computer for analysis. She is apparently pogramed with enough operational flexibility that she is willing to participate in a military coup de tat against the ship's equally single-minded autopilot if it means accomplishing that one simple task.
Single mindedness isn't a bad thing, and neither is logical thinking. Computers become interesting from a character standpoint when you allow them to take alternate and sometimes bizzare paths to carrying out what should be a perfectly simple program. It's like if you asked a 24th century Roomba to vacuum your house; you come back twenty minutes later and find the roomba sitting on the couch watching TV, having paid your children five dollars to vacuum the house for you.
Science fiction, when it is fresh, however, is not just mere fiction (i.e., fantasy), but a reasoned projection of the implications of the future of our advancements.
Science fiction, when it is fresh, however, is not just mere fiction (i.e., fantasy), but a reasoned projection of the implications of the future of our advancements.
Bzzt. Sometimes it's about the implications of current technology, or potential implications that were missed (such as The Difference Engine, an actual steampunk work). Sometimes it's not about us. And sometimes it's good despite totally screwing up the science. And sometimes it's not a reasonable projection, but one fueled by satire, or paranoia, or criticism. An unreasonable projection designed to stir or unnerve us.
Your definition of science-fiction is rigid and really only accomplishes an artificial aggrandizing of your arguments.
Verne and Wells don't continue to define the genre,
much like how the Constitution isn't the sole document the United States is built around (if we only used the Constitution, this country would be too ill-defined to function).
Having crap science doesn't make something science fantasy. It just makes it a scifi story with crap science.
Sci fi is NOT a genre about futurism, period.
It's about using the consequences of technology on the human condition to tell a story.
Like I said, that can happen in stories set in times other than the future, something you've failed to address.
I could write a scifi story about Leonardo friggin DaVanci or a caveman, and it would definitley be scifi unless you invent a new genre name to seperate my short story from what you rigidly define as scifi. "Oh no, that's speculative fantastic".
You've totally evaded my argument, and pasted this glib idea into my quoted post that I was somehow seperating the "sci" from the "fi".
And then a bunch of other writers came along and both expanded and redefined the genre a dozen different ways over the past century with a dozen sub-genres and categories and trends along the way.Science fiction, when it is fresh, however, is not just mere fiction (i.e., fantasy), but a reasoned projection of the implications of the future of our advancements.
Bzzt. Sometimes it's about the implications of current technology, or potential implications that were missed (such as The Difference Engine, an actual steampunk work). Sometimes it's not about us. And sometimes it's good despite totally screwing up the science. And sometimes it's not a reasonable projection, but one fueled by satire, or paranoia, or criticism. An unreasonable projection designed to stir or unnerve us.
Your definition of science-fiction is rigid and really only accomplishes an artificial aggrandizing of your arguments.
Verne invented the genre. His vision for speculative science-based fiction. Wells showed up second wrote fantastic tales of adventure.
Both are considered fathers of the genre and both define two poles toward which fictional tales of the future can tend.
The thing you're not really getting is that it doesn't have to be REAL science to be considered science fiction. It can just as easily be some brand of bullshit "I made it up because it sounds cool" science that supposedly defies our puny understanding of modern physics and the universe as we know it. This is considered "soft sci-fi" because the science isn't meant to be realistic, it is only a backdrop for character and plot development.To say that science fiction has no necessary concern with either "science" or "fiction" is to tear the two terms which define the genre apart. You can do this, but if you do, you are doing something else.
No it isn't. It's an aspect of SPECULATIVE science fiction. Not all sci-fi is speculative, and not all speculative fiction is sci-fi.So yes, a concern with the implications of our future advancements (i.e., science) is a necessary aspect of science fiction.
And then a bunch of other writers came along and both expanded and redefined the genre a dozen different ways over the past century with a dozen sub-genres and categories and trends along the way.
In the end, the line between science fiction and fantasy isn't as clear as you would like to believe
and it has to be acknowledged that some fantasy is unusually scientific and some sci-fi is unusually fantastical.
And yet there is no such thing as "science fantasy."
Just soft/hard science fiction. If you ever doubt this, ask an editor of a major (or even a minor) publishing house if they would ever consider publishing a "science fantasy" novel. Their response will usually be something like "Don't you mean science fiction/fantasy?"
The thing you're not really getting is that it doesn't have to be REAL science to be considered science fiction.
No it isn't. It's an aspect of SPECULATIVE science fiction. Not all sci-fi is speculative, and not all speculative fiction is sci-fi.
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