STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS - Grading & Discussion [SPOILERS]
- Thread starter Agent Richard07
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I hear you. This was really symptomatic of a general tendency in STiD, in which I think there really was an attempt to raise the level of the writing from ST09 -- but it winds up consisting of half-measures at best* because they're simultaneously trying to preserve ST09's pulper-than-Flash Gordon-drinking-a-smoothie vibe. So there's a gesture here towards "yes, it's kind of weird that he was promoted to Captain so hastily," but it winds up being just a formality.
Same with the "intricate" plot that winds up just being hard to make any sense of, and the "topical" touches that wind up coming off as shallow, and the villains that show touches of personality and complex motivation but then lapse into B-movie mustache-twirlers. And I think that might be a big part of why the whole business comes off the worse when it puts itself in the same frame as an older film that succeeded at just simple, solid storytelling.
It's funny because Uhura, by dint of her relationship with Spock, is effectively the third leg of the NuTrek "triumvirate." Yet she doesn't really benefit from it very much. The scene with her deciding to be the bitchy girlfriend as they're about to go into action on Kronos was fucking ridiculous -- say what you will about the relative marginality of Nichols' Uhura, she was rarely shown behaving stupidly or immaturely and there was good reason for that.
What bothers me most about the movie, despite repeated attempts to paint me as malcontent, is the lack of characterization. Scotty is a comedic ham even at his most serious. Uhura is nothing more than Spock's girlfriend in this movie. Sulu is just polishing to get command of the ship (he probably will be off the ship before the end of the next movie). If JJ says "it's about the relationships" and then clearly spends time making an action film about the story, then it's a bait-and-switch.
If it is truly about the characters, then the relationship between Spock and Kirk should take center stage. I understand what they are trying to do in the movie, have Spock feel the love for Kirk missing in the last movie, but I don't see it. Kirk is loyal to Spock because he doesn't want to lose a crew member. He then hints at a more personal reason. It isn't earned in this movie. There is emotion in Kirk that is never explained. It comes off as a need to be liked by Spock. They are too busy blowing things up for it to make any sense. Kirk is not ready to command the Enterprise, something that was realized in the first draft of this script. He won't be a great person if this keeps up. He doesn't know the rules in order to know which ones should be broken. He acts on gut instinct alone, and that is a problem with me. Kirk was well-trained and his advantage over the rule book that was Spock, was his ability to size up a situation and take calculated risks. When all options were exhausted, then he went with his gut. They don't seem to be making Kirk very likable or competent.
But even if it's driven by the story, the story fails to engage. Outside of Admiral Marcus creating a super ship, there is nothing of note or makes any logical sense. It's all a bunch of tropes we have seen over and over again. Try to disarm the torpedo, have it almost explode, check. Our heroes can do anything, even when it appears logically unsound (Scotty approaching a high-security base with no one recognizing it, being able to get aboard a ship without realizing it, etc.), check.
And then the nods, ripoffs during the key moments of the movie. Spock is about to die (The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few), Kirk dies instead of Spock (KHAAAAAAN!!!), Khan's lack of a plan or reason why he is telling Kirk what he is doing (unless he can tell that Scotty is on the ship, will somehow get him on the Vengeance, and then he can blow up the Enterprise OR he plans to kill Kirk and crew without anyone becoming aware and they use the Enterprise to re-start his work in Eugenics OR he is just trying to get Kirk to hand over the torpedoes to him BUT he has to somehow know that Kirk will get the torpedoes or his 72 friends could end up on different ships in different corners of the universe (if not destroyed)).
The movie got worse with each time I watched it. It's crap and it's crap that looks pretty and moves fast so it's pleasing crap. Tropes and lack of character consistency. A story as flimsy as they come.
If it is truly about the characters, then the relationship between Spock and Kirk should take center stage. I understand what they are trying to do in the movie, have Spock feel the love for Kirk missing in the last movie, but I don't see it. Kirk is loyal to Spock because he doesn't want to lose a crew member. He then hints at a more personal reason. It isn't earned in this movie. There is emotion in Kirk that is never explained. It comes off as a need to be liked by Spock. They are too busy blowing things up for it to make any sense. Kirk is not ready to command the Enterprise, something that was realized in the first draft of this script. He won't be a great person if this keeps up. He doesn't know the rules in order to know which ones should be broken. He acts on gut instinct alone, and that is a problem with me. Kirk was well-trained and his advantage over the rule book that was Spock, was his ability to size up a situation and take calculated risks. When all options were exhausted, then he went with his gut. They don't seem to be making Kirk very likable or competent.
But even if it's driven by the story, the story fails to engage. Outside of Admiral Marcus creating a super ship, there is nothing of note or makes any logical sense. It's all a bunch of tropes we have seen over and over again. Try to disarm the torpedo, have it almost explode, check. Our heroes can do anything, even when it appears logically unsound (Scotty approaching a high-security base with no one recognizing it, being able to get aboard a ship without realizing it, etc.), check.
And then the nods, ripoffs during the key moments of the movie. Spock is about to die (The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few), Kirk dies instead of Spock (KHAAAAAAN!!!), Khan's lack of a plan or reason why he is telling Kirk what he is doing (unless he can tell that Scotty is on the ship, will somehow get him on the Vengeance, and then he can blow up the Enterprise OR he plans to kill Kirk and crew without anyone becoming aware and they use the Enterprise to re-start his work in Eugenics OR he is just trying to get Kirk to hand over the torpedoes to him BUT he has to somehow know that Kirk will get the torpedoes or his 72 friends could end up on different ships in different corners of the universe (if not destroyed)).
The movie got worse with each time I watched it. It's crap and it's crap that looks pretty and moves fast so it's pleasing crap. Tropes and lack of character consistency. A story as flimsy as they come.
Kirk likes Spock and wants to be his friend. What more explanation is necessary?
Why does Kirk like Spock in TOS? Or Bashir like O'Brien in DS9? Why do you like your best friend?
My friends and I have fun together. Kirk and Spock have continually been at odds. Because of that there has to be a moment of respect.
My friends have qualities that I admire. They've shown me trust, respect, and loyalty. They have shown how kind they can be to me and to others. They have been generous and helped me through difficult times. They rely on me, I rely on them. They find me to be generous and a "good friend." We "take care of each other." That is a big part of our relationship. We BS in the morning over coffee and cigarettes. That's bonding time. If we need anything, the others would be there for us.
We have talked about why we are friends. We have done things and explained that it is because we are friends. As we have grown closer, we have talked more openly about where we stand. There's open communication. There's shared experiences. There is reciprocal love.
I can pinpoint when we became close friends. It was around the time that one of us went through back surgery and I was kind, asking every day if there was something I could do. We had time together, but that's really when things hardened into a friendship. Before that, we drifted into each other, got mad at one-another, and we remained acquaintances.
Open communication, trust, generosity, time spent together, love--all of that is at the basis for our relationship.
What this has to do with Kirk and Spock I'll never know, except to say that Kirk has very limited contact with Spock and that contact has been contentious. Comradery can build when you face death together, but that can't be the sole unstated reason in a movie that promises to be about relationships.
EDIT: In TOS, the respect of differences, led to a friendship (Spock and Kirk playing chess in their first scene together, "Not Chess, Mister Spock, Poker"). As they went through trials (like Spock almost killing Kirk in Amok Time), there friendship deepened. It took them 15 years to get to the point that these two do in 6 months (one of them dying and doing everything they can to save one-another).
So I take it you believe Spock and McCoy in TOS genuinely were enemies? Kirk and Spock bicker like an old married couple in ID (limited contact? Spock's been his first officer for a year!), but both clearly hold affection for each other, as did Spock and McCoy in the classic show.
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Please don't do this, though:
It's playing the victim card, and not much better than the trick of beginning a post with "I'll probably get flamed for this, but... " in hopes of getting flamed.
Say whatever you want to say about the movie, and expect that others may hold differing opinions concerning the points you raise. That's the way it's supposed to work.
Please don't do this, though:
It's playing the victim card, and not much better than the trick of beginning a post with "I'll probably get flamed for this, but... " in hopes of getting flamed.
Say whatever you want to say about the movie, and expect that others may hold differing opinions concerning the points you raise. That's the way it's supposed to work.
They bicker. Kirk hits Spock on the shoulder--for no reason. That's all we know. We don't see anything. Bones had moments where he confessed to Kirk his appreciation of Spock--cared for him. But the touchstones of their relationship aren't there.
Spock's death scene tied the movie together--the differences between Kirk (lie and cheat out of death) and Spock (admit defeat, limit the damage, especially if it's only one person). It talked of their friendship, calling back to the cabin scene, it talked of their friendship long before he was killed off. The closest we get in this movie?
"Do you know why I went back for you?"
No, I don't. Spock goes after Kirk for reprogramming the simulator to beat the Kobiashi Maru. He argues with Spock until Spock takes his side. He gets booted off the ship because Spock feels he is a liability (a married couple?). Kirk emotionally compromised Spock, after arguing with him, to get command so he could go after Nero and not rejoin the rest of the fleet. Spock told him he was going with him to Nero's ship. He gets Spock to take command of the Red Matter ship. Kirk, then saves Spock's life. He complains that Spock wrote a report that contradicted the Captain's Log. He gets mad because Spock doesn't feel anything. He wants to "rip his bangs off." Kirk says that he did what Spock would do when he's explaining why he sacrificed his life. Then Spock goes ape and tries to kill Khan for killing Kirk.
Now, does that sound like they had any time to bond? Maybe, at the most, on Nero's ship. But there's nothing in what we see, except to assume that they bonded because we've seen Star Trek before, for why they have bonded. Instead of having Leonard Nimoy talking to Zachary Quinto in the final scenes of Star Trek, maybe they should've had a scene with Kirk expressing to Bones his feelings. Or maybe Spock starts to cry when all of this hits him and Kirk comforts him. Or maybe Kirk is the one crying, maybe realizing he's unprepared to be Captain.
But there's nothing.
There's nothing to indicate when or why they became friends in "Where No Man..." either, but we are clued in pretty quickly that they are friends. They were together for roughly a year in "Amok Time" when Kirk decides to risk his career and his one true love (commanding a starship) to take Spock to Vulcan. The characters may have well had a similar shaky early relationship in TOS that we simply weren't privy too.
You say there's nothing there that indicates a growing friendship and I disagree. There's Spock still wanting to serve with Kirk even after their early difficulties in Star Trek 2009, there's Kirk risking his command and saving Spock on Niburu, there's the excitement as they walk to Pike's office when discussing the possible five-year mission, there's Kirk still wanting Spock as his XO once he regained command.
Damning two films because they have different time limitations to tell a story vs. seventy-nine live-action episodes, twenty-two animated episodes and six movies seems incredibly silly to me.
Who needs to see anything when we can just be told!
Just realized, why I'm uncomfortable with nuTrek movies.
Kirk&Spock deep friendship was a cornerstone of TOS-show and TOS-movies. This friendship was explained and expressed by different ways: thoughtful scripts, sincere dialogs, chemistry between actors. People, who made TOS-shows, were more soulful, with deep understanding of friendship, love, humanity.
Now in nuTrek they can't feel and express it, they can only talk about it. May be, that's why nuTrek is more a parody than a real Star Trek movie. Cool, colorful, expensive parody.
It's really that destiny angle that harms it for me. They're told by Spock Prime that they're meant to be friends, so it's like "we're friends huh" "yeah". It already doesn't come off like genuine friendship to me, but with the whole destiny angle it only really drives home how false their friendship feels. It's like how the Star Wars prequels try to drive home that Anakin and Padme are in love, but I'm not getting any of that no matter how much they say "I'm so in love with you!".
I guess we must define humanity and friendship very differently if you can't find it in the new movies.
But of course, if you don't like something, you're not exactly likely to view any aspect of it in a positive light.
The friendship simply isn't well executed. They had two films, and it's still just "huh, we're supposed to be friends, right." Look at other films were two opposite strangers become good friends in just one or two films.
I think the filmmakers were just trying to stretch out the formula from the first film because of how popular that was among audiences. Instead of showing Kirk and Spock as they would likely interact after a whole year in space working together, they repeat the beats from the first film by having the two not understanding each other all that well, even though they're supposed to be "friends" by this point. It's kind of like CASINO ROYALE ending with Bond having fully formed into the character we've come to know in the series, only for the next film to tell us "oh no, his arc isn't quite finished yet" because the first one was so well received they want to recapture that. Thus we get STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS that ends the same way the last film ended.
What both of Abrams' films rely upon pretty heavily -- despite being very carefully crafted to convey as clearly as possible that this is not your father's Trek -- is prior knowledge of the characters and their relationship. Kirk and Spock are conceived and delivered (and in an unusual and somewhat painfully ham-handed way in ST09, we're explicitly told that they are) a destined dramatic unit in the same sense as Alfred and Bruce Wayne, or Sherlock Holmes and Watson.
Within those parameters, the relationship between Kirk and Spock actually does take center stage. Their arcs are the most clearly conceived and delivered elements of either film's stories: ST09 is about them learning about and accepting their shared "destinies" (ugh), STiD is about them learning to fully understand and accept their friendship.
But yes, it's quite true that we are told about more than we're shown the foundations of their relationship to a degree that's unusual even for a reboot; STiD in particular seems to rely on us reading an implied now-long-standing friendship into an onscreen relationship that doesn't really feel like longstanding friendship.
I think he's likable enough*, but I'm mystified from what we see of him why everyone seems to have so much faith in him as a leader of men (apart from the fact that we as the audience are meant to cut him a break because of course He's The Main Character). I think this is a flaw in the conception of the NuTrek crew as a whole: they've been thrown together like a superhero team with an inherent "right" to their positions, but as likeable as they are separately, they don't feel believable as a competent, disciplined crew of a ship.
* More than this, I think his relative rawness, lack of discipline and seat-of-the-pants style is actually a believable outcome of his changed backstory. It's just not believable that they keep putting him in command of their "flagship" with those qualities.
These are the biggest problems for me by far: the massive, sometimes seemingly deliberate illogic of the stories (and settings and character concepts), and the mistaking of clever reference and fan-service for good writing. I don't mind clever reference or fan-service, mind you, but they're not a substitute for a story that makes sense.
The keywords were: show friendship, express feelings, not just talk about it. They use old Spock with his words of "destiny" to establish relationships. This way is much easier than think about effective dialogs and actions.
Yes, totally agree.
But they did show Kirk and Spock's friendship in ID. You just aren't seeing it.
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