STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS - Grading & Discussion [SPOILERS]

[ConRefit79]

In the novel The Valiant, the Stargazer's captain and first officer were killed, and Picard took command. He kept it.

Ditto Dax on the USS Aventine in the post-series novels.

But... But.... But.... Enterprise's Captain, Captain Pike, was not killed. And Enterprise returned to Earth after the mission. Kirk was a cadet about to be reprimanded for cheating. Not to mention being a stowaway. But as long as he ends up Captain, it doesn't matter how he gets there.

Spoiler: SPOILER

Even in the new film, he ends up commanding Enterprise in the end. Despite the fact I've seen nothing that suggests he learned anything from what got him demoted in the first place. He simply saves Earth. Again..

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

IIRC, if an Admiral has command of a ship, they are still referred to as Admiral. Kirk actually demoted himself in rank. That's the difference. He expected to KEEP command of the Enterprise.

How do you demote yourself?

Kirk was Chief of Starfleet Operations. One of the top Admirals in Starfleet. I'd say that gives him the right.

 

[BillJ]

IIRC, if an Admiral has command of a ship, they are still referred to as Admiral. Kirk actually demoted himself in rank. That's the difference. He expected to KEEP command of the Enterprise.

How do you demote yourself?

Kirk was Chief of Starfleet Operations. One of the top Admirals in Starfleet. I'd say that gives him the right.

I really don't think the military works that way...

Which is why I'm not too hung-up on Kirk being a captain, because the shows and movies have used the "military" set-up as they see fit.

 

[Ryan8bit]

We don't know that for sure.

Yeah, I guess we don't.

How old do you think Picard is? He commanded the ship for twenty-two years.

How do you know he commanded it for 22 years?

Most of that stuff is fan speculation or the kind from the Okudas which has no actual basis in any script.

The most you can really gather is that he was captain when he had to deliver the news to Beverly and Wesley about Jack's death. Everything else is made up.

 

[Kemaiku]

Yeah, I guess we don't.

How old do you think Picard is? He commanded the ship for twenty-two years.

How do you know he commanded it for 22 years?

Most of that stuff is fan speculation or the kind from the Okudas which has no actual basis in any script.

The most you can really gather is that he was captain when he had to deliver the news to Beverly and Wesley about Jack's death. Everything else is made up.

The Battle mentions his command of the Stargazer lasting from 2333 to 2355.

 

[BillJ]

In MASH, Hawkeye and Trapper and BJ Honeycutt aren't going to be allowed to break the rules and piss off higher ups if they were following a true military structure they'd be in prison no matter how talented they are. Likewise, Klinger wouldn't be allowed to walk around in a dress for five years, they'd drop him in a psychiatric ward and forget about him.

In TNG, Riker wouldn't be allowed to turn down commands time and again no matter how badly he wanted to stay on the Enterprise. They also wouldn't allow a child on the bridge performing duties of more experienced, trained officers.

Any entertainment would fail miserably if we put in under the microscope we put Star Trek under.

 

[Ryan8bit]

The Battle mentions his command of the Stargazer lasting from 2333 to 2355.

Is that on a screen graphic then? Because it's not mentioned in dialog.

 

[Franklin]

^ Picard was born in 2305. As of the Stargazer incident (when he took command for the first time), I think he was 28.

Correct. The thing we don't know is if he was immediately promoted to captain as well, or was only promoted to commander, then captain after he proved his competency/excellence over a period of time. Doesn't really matter, though. He was put in full command of a starship at age 28 with all the responsibilities of a starship captain, and that's the point.

Tryla Scott was the youngest to attain the actual rank of captain in the old universe. (But I don't think her age when she got the rank was said on screen.)

The age thing is such an old chestnut, and there are nits to pick at both ends of the specturm. Kirk was feeling old at 53 in TWOK, and he was basically put out to pasture at 62 in TUC. However, Picard was already 59 when he took command of the Enterprise in 2364. It's hard to rationalize Kirk being old compared to that.

 

[Therin of Andor]

That doesn't make it right!

We're not going to be able to convince them. They enjoy the new films and are willing to accept its new creator's vision of Star Trek characters, settings and technology.

Is that any different to "willing to accept" episodes like "Spock's Brain", the interpretations of the K/S fanfic of the 70s and 80s, Gold Key's bizarro comics, the hundreds of licensed novels, Filmation's TAS, several companies' not-quite-Trek RPGs that tweaked ST into a "battle" because exploration was too boring, switching Saaviks in midstream, "Myriad Universe" novellas and comics, the fanfilms of the recent decade...?

IDIC. Infinite Diversity in Infinite Combinations.

 

[BillJ]

The age thing is such an old chestnut, and there are nits to pick at both ends of the specturm. Kirk was feeling old at 53 in TWOK, and he was basically put out to pasture at 62 in TUC. However, Picard was already 59 when he took command of the Enterprise in 2364. It's hard to rationalize Kirk being old compared to that.

I think Starfleet forced Kirk out (just my speculation).

 

[ConRefit79]

Is that any different to "willing to accept" episodes like "Spock's Brain"....

"Spock's Brain" is a masterpiece.... /SARC

 

[marksound]

How do you demote yourself?

Kirk was Chief of Starfleet Operations. One of the top Admirals in Starfleet. I'd say that gives him the right.

I really don't think the military works that way...

Which is why I'm not too hung-up on Kirk being a captain, because the shows and movies have used the "military" set-up as they see fit.

If we're talking TMP, he went to Admiral Nogura (presumably his superior) and made his case for taking back the Enterprise. Kirk ultimately got Nogura's permission, if not his blessing.

If we're not talking TMP, I don't know what the hell we're talking about.

 

[Pauln6]

The classic example for me when it comes to quality of storytelling is acomparison of the quarantine scenes in Alien and Prometheus. One is low key, sensible and avoided because of the subtlety of the plot (Ash's agenda). The other is devoid of common sense (the ship is open to the atmosphere and they have no quarantine protocols at all) and results in an horrendous messy bloodfest that typifies a shambles of a plot.

I suppose it isn't about old and new, it's more about good and bad, sensible and silly. They all have a mix of both. No episode or movie is perfect but no reason why we can't postulate on tweaks that would have made it more to our tastes. I love TMP but I would have preferred it have more character moments for the supporting cast and I would have liked it if a landing party had needed to navigate its way through V'Ger rather than everything taking place on the ship.

NuKirk displays none of the qualities required to be a captain. In fact, he barely displays the qualities required of a junior officer. I'd have preferred a progression that was more sensible but I can see equally that they want to display the character's progression on screen so they want him to be a flawed captain on board the Enterprise as soon as possible.

 

[Ryan8bit]

Correct. The thing we don't know is if he was immediately promoted to captain as well, or was only promoted to commander, then captain after he proved his competency/excellence over a period of time.

Ugh, I think you guys all read memory alpha too much.

There really are no established dates for any of that stuff. It's all just conjecture on a single line of dialog where Q said that without ambition Picard never would have taken charge of "the Stargazer's bridge when its captain was killed." All this "2233" or 22 years stuff from all that I can tell is just made up.

 

[gornsky]

Spoiler: SPOILER

Even in the new film, he ends up commanding Enterprise in the end. Despite the fact I've seen nothing that suggests he learned anything from what got him demoted in the first place.

What? You must not have been paying attention. Did you go for a toilet break at any time? Ducked out for extra popcorn?

 

[ConRefit79]

What? You must not have been paying attention. Did you go for a toilet break at any time? Ducked out for extra popcorn?

It hasn't opened here.

Spoiler: SPOILERS

And because they decided to make their own Kahn film, I'm waiting to borrow it from the library. But from the Spoilers I've read here and elsewhere, it doesn't sound like he learns why he should not have revealed the ship to the primitive aliens at the start of the film. Even at the cost of Spock's life. I know Pike has a long talk with him. So what am I missing that says he agrees he screwed up?

 

[Roshi]

So you're text-book talking out of your ass.

 

[BillJ]

I think some people are desperate to hate this movie.

 

[ConRefit79]

So you're text-book talking out of your ass.

That doesn't answer the question. It's based on all the info I've collected. And I'm glad cause I won't pay to see another, IMO, Nemesis.

 

[BillJ]

So you're text-book talking out of your ass.

That doesn't answer the question. It's based on all the info I've collected. And I'm glad cause I won't pay to see another, IMO, Nemesis.

By your logic, Picard should've allow the Mintakans to skewer Troi and Palmer...

Putting the Prime Directive over the lives of the people under his command is a lesson Prime Kirk never seemed to learn.

It's your loss if you decide to not see it on the big-screen. As much as I hate Insurrection, I still regret not going to see it in the theater.