Spoilers Star Trek: Discovery 5x09 - "Lagrange Point"

[eschaton]

I don't have issue with it, Moll learned of who La'k was and his status, ergo targeting him over time and building a relationship with him. How would a "Outsider" even learn of such important details if it wasn't because of gossip.

I'm not sure how to interpret those scenes from Mirrors. It certainly seemed like Moll may have been playing La'k at the beginning, with it only becoming more legitimate later (why would she be hitting on an indistinguishable suit otherwise) but the intent of the writers is hard to grok.

That's how most of Discovery & other shows are structured.

This is true, but I can also expect better. I mean, over the past two years I've been writing my first novel (a fantasy story). I've dived deep into storytelling and structure, and as a writer now, and not just a fan, plot contrivances really irk me - particularly in cases where a character acts against their established characterization. Which I'd argue happens here a bit, because this is acting against the "character" of the Breen as a race. I also think that the narrative continually rewarding Moll stretches credulity, as she's not the sort of person who would fall upward like this.

I strongly prefer character-based writing, where the story begins with well-established characters whose path through the narrative is defined by their established personality traits, and who suffer real consequences from bad decisions.

I know Discovery isn't that kind of narrative, but now that I'm a writer, this sort of structure - where you decide what's going to happen first, then railroad the characters to get there - will never seem as compelling.

FWIW, I think Season 4 did a way, way better job with Ruon Tarka, so it's not that I'm a hater here.

 

[KamenRiderBlade]

Which I'd argue happens here a bit, because this is acting against the "character" of the Breen as a race.

That's stereo typing a "Entire Race", that's not great to do as a person or a writer.
If you want depth in your race, you need to break stereo types.

 

[eschaton]

That's stereo typing a "Entire Race", that's not great to do as a person or a writer.
If you want depth in your race, you need to break stereo types.

First, I kind of disagree with this. Characterization should not be one-dimensional, but real people are always going to be more multifaceted than characters, because real people have tons of character conflicts which, if put into fictional media, would needlessly muddle story and themes.

More importantly though, there's a difference between having deeper characterization and just changing characterization for a momentary plot point. Think about how often in early TNG they made Worf accidentally look like a wuss, since his role was often just to get the crap kicked out of him by the antagonist of the week to show how intimidating they were. He became a joke character to a large degree, until finally they began deepening and broadening his characterization, rather than just contradicting it.

 

[tomalak301]

Gave the episode a 7. It was decent and set up well for the finale, but I agree with a poster up thread saying that the finale better be kinda long. I wish this season had taken a more wonderous approach with the progenitors tech rather than all the Breen stuff, because we are at the final episode and I feel like they should have did a lot (Like let us go into the portal with Burnham) with the tech in this episode. Instead it's another fight on the breen ship/rescue mission. Discovery coming in with Guns blazing was cool though. Also like Rayner finally sitting in the Captain's chair, he's not Gene Kranz (Ed Harris). That "Failure is not an option" line was a little eye-rolling.

 

[Captrek]

I think the "tech" is the Progenitors themselves, hidden away in their pocket dimension.

How would you reconcile that with the alternate timeline we glimpsed where the Breen were able to launch a devastating attack on the UFP after getting the tech?

 

[Visitor1982]

Gave it an 8, one of the better episodes this season.

Still annoyed at these silly emotional moments, like Burnham and Book, dressed as Breen, talking about their feelings again whilst on a highly dangerous away mission... It just doesn't make any sense.

I had hoped for an episode this season that would actually deal with the Progenitors and the scientists itself, maybe through flashbacks or something, but that seems unlikely now. A shame.

 

[Captrek]

If they value those structures of power & prestige, I wouldn't be surprised if they take the "Wife of the Scion" position seriously. Especially if it comes to "Imperial Lineage".

Or they’re confident that L’ak will be resurrected and want to be on his good side when that happens. They’re listening to Moll during L’ak’s temporary incapacitation because that’s what L’ak would want.

Of course, these same people had an Erigah on L’ak, so I’m not sure why the change of heart.

 

[Lord Garth]

I have a really bad cold right now, so I'm going to keep this short.

• A lot the scenes kept me in suspense.
• Good to have Saru back.
• Rayner finally sitting down!
• The portal might lead to what I've been speculating about in the "Calypso" thread.
• Seeing Burnham, Book, Adira, and Rhys in costume was a hoot.
• Now I'm starting to think there's a non-zero chance Saru will be killed off, but it looks so obvious that I don't think it'll happen.
• I agree with anyone who says the finale better be long.

That's it.

 

[trekfan_1]

Pet peeve for this episode. if I didn't know it was Burnham and company ((Adira) masquerading as Breen I would of beeen like "These are the shortest Breen I have ever seen!". I'm assuming male actors typically play them and men are generally taller. You would think other Breen would of caught on that something is afoot pretty early. But maybe I'm wrong, have we seen short Breen before? Like 5'2ish short? Not a biggie really just loses a tiny bit of verisimilitude for me.

 

[cooleddie74]

Another episode where I loved certain parts and found others dowright tedious and eyeroll-worthy. They're throwing everything at the wall to see what sticks in the mad rush to the series finale and too much isn't doing any sticking, but it wasn't a bad episode. Just frustrating that I veered back and forth between having a really good time and sighing.

 

[Yistaan]

Pet peeve for this episode. if I didn't know it was Burnham and company ((Adira) masquerading as Breen I would of beeen like "These are the shortest Breen I have ever seen!". I'm assuming male actors typically play them and men are generally taller. You would think other Breen would of caught on that something is afoot pretty early. But maybe I'm wrong, have we seen short Breen before? Like 5'2ish short? Not a biggie really just loses a tiny bit of verisimilitude for me.

Moll: Aren't you a bit short for a Breen?

 

[Ar-Pharazon]

How would you reconcile that with the alternate timeline we glimpsed where the Breen were able to launch a devastating attack on the UFP after getting the tech?

Do we know for 100% that they got the tech in that version? The Breen are just a-holes, they might have felt like a fight no matter what. We know Ruhn did at the library.

Moll: Aren't you a bit short for a Breen?

The same could have been said about Michael or Adria. You'd think a quasi-gelatinous species could make themselves all the same height.

 

[Yistaan]

You'd think a quasi-gelatinous species could make themselves all the same height.

Without spoiling too much, Morph on the X-Men 97 cartoon has been doing all of that and then some, and he's really showing why a changeling would actually be revered as a god in certain societies. It really shows you in theory what the Breen (and by extension the Founders) should be able to do.

 

[Tuskin38]

This may have been my favourite episode of the season

 

[eschaton]

Without spoiling too much, Morph on the X-Men 97 cartoon has been doing all of that and then some, and he's really showing why a changeling would actually be revered as a god in certain societies. It really shows you in theory what the Breen (and by extension the Founders) should be able to do.

Just because the Breen are gelatinous, it doesn't mean they're shapeshifters. Nothing established this season suggests they have any special powers whatsoever.

 

[Tuskin38]

Without spoiling too much, Morph on the X-Men 97 cartoon has been doing all of that and then some, and he's really showing why a changeling would actually be revered as a god in certain societies. It really shows you in theory what the Breen (and by extension the Founders) should be able to do.

Where are you getting the idea that the Breen can change their size and shape?
All we've seen is they can go from semi-solid to full solid.

 

[eschaton]

Where are you getting the idea that the Breen can change their size and shape?
All we've seen is they can go from semi-solid to full solid.

We haven't even seen that. We've just seen them go from translucent to opaque.

 

[evilchumlee]

This one was good for the most part. There's... ALOT that needs to happen in the next episode.

Let's see if Discovery can stick the landing. The season has been Discovery's best... I really hope they don't blow the finale. It doesn't have a great track record on finales.

 

[Yistaan]

Where are you getting the idea that the Breen can change their size and shape?
All we've seen is they can go from semi-solid to full solid.

We haven't even seen that. We've just seen them go from translucent to opaque.

Fair enough, in retrospect if L'ak could shapeshift he'd probably turn into someone better looking for Moll.

 

[Romulan_spy]

Without spoiling too much, Morph on the X-Men 97 cartoon has been doing all of that and then some, and he's really showing why a changeling would actually be revered as a god in certain societies. It really shows you in theory what the Breen (and by extension the Founders) should be able to do.

The Breen are not shapeshifters.