Spoilers Star Trek: Discovery 3x07 - "Unification III"

[Yistaan]

Admiral Vance is testing the character of the crew. He told Saru to offer Tilly the position to see how the rest of the crew would react. Stamets reacted normally, in a very upset manner initially.

However, Vance's dismissive attitude towards Adira Tal is hurting him now. Adira told Stamets that she remembers from Admiral Tal's memories that Vance often uses this ploy to test the character of the crew. Note Stamets' sudden change of attitude and quickly letting the rest of the crew in on the plot, showcasing their "supportive" manner and foiling Vance's plan to try to get the crew to act like jerks.

 

[Tim Thomason]

Nevertheless, it does mean that there has always been a disproportionate tendency for Starfleet and the Federation to be overly human- and/or Earth-centric.

I never minded it, as it made sense for the 22nd, 23rd, and even 24th centuries to have a human-majority Starfleet. But everything we know about the 32nd century Starfleet (Earth is not a Federation member, there ought to be a large amount of hybridization going on per Enterprise, and Starfleet is hidden away with very little warp capability) points towards a Starfleet that should be human-minority.

It'd be okay if Vance was an exception, or better yet, Willa the exception. But Vance and Willa, and more than half the Captains we meet, all appear Human.

 

[fireproof78]

I'm sure they can, but I'm also sure they'd have an interesting conversation with their superiors if they put the last person they should have picked in a position they had nowhere near the right amount of experience to even properly understand, never mind carry out. Tilly making on the spot life or death decisions? Geordi, climb into that Jeffreys tube and sacrifice yourself for the rest of the ship. Captain's discretion is itself supposed to be steeped in experience and years of learning, it's not a carte blanche to do things however you fancy.

I see no reason why these conversations won't happen. It happened in ID with Kirk, and I have no doubt Tilly will face similar.

 

[Yistaan]

But Vance and Willa, and more than half the Captains we meet, all appear Human.

They're all changelings. The Dominion joined the Fed centuries ago. Have you ever seen Vance bleed?

They took a form the Discovery crew was comfortable with when their scans showed Discovery was mostly manned by humans

 

[TPezz]

Apparently nobody has heard of an Honorary Degree

 

[Irvy]

I see no reason why these conversations won't happen. It happened in ID with Kirk, and I have no doubt Tilly will face similar.

Try and imagine Tilly reading Riker's lines in the turbolift with Shelby after she went to Picard behind his back. The XO has to be the bad ass and deliver the bad news so that the captain doesn't have to. She's scared of a cat.

 

[Tim Thomason]

They're all changelings. The Dominion joined the Fed centuries ago. Have you ever seen Vance bleed?

They took a form the Discovery crew was comfortable with when their scans showed Discovery was mostly manned by humans

It's like that episode of TNG when Worf posed as the Captain to greet the Klingon sleeper ship. Vance and Willa and co. are all humanoid Klingons adopting fake names so as not to tip off the Discovery crew that the Klingons now are a majority of the Federation. They're not sure how well a ship renowned for fighting Klingons will react to that information.

 

[Yistaan]

Saru: This Vorta claims to be the follower of an Odo. Do you know what he's talking about?

Vance: Odo. Odo... Now, that's a name I've not heard in a long time. A long time.

Saru: Then you know him.

Vance: Well, of course I know him. He's me. I haven't gone by the name of Odo since... oh, before the Burn.

 

[fireproof78]

Try and imagine Tilly reading Riker's lines in the turbolift with Shelby after she went to Picard behind his back. The XO has to be the bad ass and deliver the bad news so that the captain doesn't have to. She's scared of a cat.

Nope. I have been in situations requiring cool head and have been scared of cats.

 

[Bad Thoughts]

No, but in the real world US Navy a captain can put an officer in a position of leadership at their discretion and that person becomes eligible to move up the chain at that point.

Captain's discretion is itself supposed to be steeped in experience and years of learning, it's not a carte blanche to do things however you fancy.

Tilly, though, is becoming the acting executive officer, and in most cases, the commanding officer would have discretion in such a matter. If this were real life, Saru would not be the sole voice for whom Burnham's permanent replacement would be. In the US Navy, the candidate XO on a ship would be expected to have training and some significant experience. The XO is also considered to be, in some cases, a training position in and of itself, a means of preparing someone to become CO of a ship. The experience that one gets within one's particular chain of command, one's department on the ship, counts more for getting that training than for getting that positions a XO. Like I keep reminding people, Tilly literally had command officers training. She was the youngest by far to go through it. It is totally a conceit that she would have such an opportunity, but Saru's decision is only the fruit of that conceit, not a new conceit. If we accept that she went through the training, then Tilly would indeed be on a list of possible candidate. She would probably be the lowest person on that list, but she would be on that list.

Someone upthread tried to compare her to a doctor just out of residency. That doctor may be very green and inexperienced, but s↕he would still outrank all the RNs in a hospital regardless of their experience. Tilly is in that same position. She may be the worst candidate, but by virtue of her training, she is still a candidate. I would hope that the writers are using the opportunity to challenge Tilly, illustrate the toughter sides of leadership, rather than paper over those aspects.

 

[Irvy]

Nope. I have been in situations requiring cool head and have been scared of cats.

And would you put you in charge of hundreds of lives and a monster of a ship that travels across the universe on mushrooms? Well, yes, you probably would, but that's the point, nobody else would.

It's like O'Brien explaining to Nog that by the time he defaulted to Captain, there'd be nobody left to give orders to. We're also completely glossing over the fact that Saru isn't even a Captain, nobody promoted him, he's a pretender. Vance must know that too. Given how he was pulling towards Burnham at the start of the episode, I think Vance is giving Saru some rope at the minute, but he thinks Burnham should be calling the shots already.

 

[Yistaan]

Although I agree this Tilly situation is unrealistic and absurd, I'm hoping at this point that as soon as possible (maybe even next week), Saru is put out of action and Tilly blows up the Emerald Chain or something so we can all stop arguing about her command ability and move on to other topics.

 

[Discofan]

That's not how it works in the military, or in the real world. No they don't owe her, she did her job/duty. That's how experience works, you work hard, and over time you learn and improve and get better. You don't do one good thing and get handed the diploma just because, gosh, we're just so gosh darn impressed that you did a thing and didn't give up halfway through.

Seriously, they had no idea what to do and time was running short. If not for her they all would have died on Terralysium.

 

[fireproof78]

And would you put you in charge of hundreds of lives and a monster of a ship that travels across the universe on mushrooms? Well, yes, you probably would, but that's the point, nobody else would.

It's like O'Brien explaining to Nog that by the time he defaulted to Captain, there'd be nobody left to give orders to. We're also completely glossing over the fact that Saru isn't even a Captain, nobody promoted him, he's a pretender. Vance must know that too. Given how he was pulling towards Burnham at the start of the episode, I think Vance is giving Saru some rope at the minute, but he thinks Burnham should be calling the shots already.

I don't know. We've seen Tilly step up when the chips are down but who knows. The point of a dramatic show is to involve drama so this at least is an interesting take. I'm not saying makes total sense but nor is it entirely unprecedented in the world of Trek or in the real world either. Though, real world logic rarely applies.

And, Saru is not a pretender. He was the executive officer, and, without a captain, would move up the chain of command, until relieved by a more senior officer. I may not know a whole about the military but I do know that much. And if Vance orders him to stand down as captain then Saru would do so.

She may be the worst candidate, but by virtue of her training, she is still a candidate. I would hope that the writers are using the opportunity to challenge Tilly, illustrate the toughter sides of leadership, rather than paper over those aspects.

Well put. I do hope that the dramatic potential is unpacked to explore leadership in such a way.

I get it that many don't like it, nor would it be my first choice (I prefer Nilsson). But, the point stands-Saru, as captain, is allowed to make that choice. It might backfire or it might work out. The point is that there is dramatic potential and that no real world naval review board is sitting there declaring to be heresy or unsound policy.

 

[Irvy]

Seriously, they had no idea what to do and time was running short. If not for her they all would have died on Terralysium.

That being true doesn't make her the right pick for XO, now. Especially since, since arriving through the wormhole, she's been the one who hasn't let go and blubbed it out yet. As Saru pointed out, her direction to go by the book and report Burnham to Vance wasn't Tilly-typical, she's behaving much more like Burnham, her idol/hero, and not her wonderful, ditzy, "I broke a Captain" Tilly. Putting her not only in the position of 2nd, he's putting her in that situation with Stamets, with everybody else in the ship. Now, maybe that's the idea, and Vance or even Culbert is pulling the strings to get Saru to overload Tilly's plate now and get her to release that stress in a safe way. That idea makes sense, that the "Just say yes" scene came after an unseen scene where Saru brought them up to speed with the plan.

 

[Irvy]

And, Saru is not a pretender.

Was he promoted to Captain by Starfleet? Or was he prepared to rock paper scissors it with Burnham in the ready room?

He wasn't even going to be Captain, they were on their way to Vulcan for their new captain when Pike commandeered them last season. Starfleet didn't want to promote him then.

 

[fireproof78]

Was he promoted to Captain by Starfleet? Or was he prepared to rock paper scissors it with Burnham in the ready room?

He wasn't even going to be Captain, they were on their way to Vulcan for their new captain when Pike commandeered them last season. Starfleet didn't want to promote him then.

He was still eligible to move up the chain. That's not a pretender. That's operating within the scope of his duty and authority.

 

[Irvy]

Actually, the more I think about it, the medical holo scanned Saru and pointed out that he was different from their modern Kelpians, I'm trying to remember exactly but it was something about his ganglia falling out. Among the last logs on file regarding Saru would have been Pike's concerns about Saru's out-of-character behaviour, and his tone when dealing with authority. He's an unknown quantity to them, a proto-Kelpian by their reckoning, liable to go feral at any time and starting shooting his regrowing spikes that are probably something similar to toe-nails. He's just one big transporter t-cell accident waiting to roam the halls devouring people.

 

[Yistaan]

Actually, the more I think about it, the medical holo scanned Saru and pointed out that he was different from their modern Kelpians, I'm trying to remember exactly but it was something about his ganglia falling out. Among the last logs on file regarding Saru would have been Pike's concerns about Saru's out-of-character behaviour, and his tone when dealing with authority. He's an unknown quantity to them, a proto-Kelpian by their reckoning, liable to go feral at any time and starting shooting his regrowing spikes that are probably something similar to toe-nails. He's just one big transporter t-cell accident waiting to roam the halls devouring people.

They totally forgot about feral Saru after last season. Would have been interesting if they continued that storyline.

Saru: Attention crew, I have decided on the most fitting way to choose a new first officer. I have deactivated the safety protocols on this new holodeck that has been installed. You all have been provided with a Klingon bat'leth. The remaining individual still standing will become my first officer.

 

[fireproof78]

They totally forgot about feral Saru after last season. Would have been interesting if they continued that storyline.

Saru: Attention crew, I have decided on the most fitting way to choose a new first officer. I have deactivated the safety protocols on this new holodeck that has been installed. You all have been provided with a Klingon bat'leth. The remaining individual still standing will become my first officer.

May the odds ever been in your favor. It is a good day to die. I just wanted to say good luck; we're all counting on you.