I agree that it's not nearly as binary as I presented it. Fair point.
Spoilers Star Trek: Discovery 2x13 - "Such Sweet Sorrow"
- Thread starter Commander Richard
- Start date
I agree that it's not nearly as binary as I presented it. Fair point.
I agree.
I'll be open to whatever direction ends up being the "path taken..." and judge it on its own merits...but it definitely isn't my first choice, and I'll be disappointed if they go there.
I've always felt this way about "eras" or "timeframes." It's largely inconsequential. Lots of fans get hung up on it though.
Oh yeah if they do it, I'll happily give them the chance to do it well. If we get first-half-of-season-2 episodes in a new timeframe, well vive la new time frame. But it certainly isn't my first choice for the show.
^^^^
So true....
I'm not disappointed in the commentary for the episode, that was all expected.
But not one person made the 'ample nacelles' joke.
Last post on this before I sign off on this debate and wait for the second half of "Such Sweet Sorrow". Potentially we can keep going, but soon I have to look at and edit footage I shot over the weekend (for those who don't know, I'm a Videographer). And Thursday can turn out to prove me wrong on a lot of what I said. So arguing my position and getting it all out is one thing. But fighting tooth and nail for it right up until the minute of the Season Finale drops will be something else. It would make the potential egg on my face look a lot worse.
We all know Harberts/Berg, Kurtzman, and now Paradise have inherited Fuller's creation. So they had to decide what to do with it. Kurtzman seems like an interim showrunner. He wants to be the "Rick Berman" handling the Bigger Picture, not the "Michael Piller" handling the day-to-day. So, post-Fuller, we really have Harbert/Berg's vision of what they wanted to do and Michelle Paradise's vision of what she wants to do.
I don't know if Bryan Fuller wanted to include the Mirror Universe or if that's something Harberts/Berg added, or how far along they got in planning out the season before Fuller left, but if the Mycellial Network took them from the Mirror Universe to Nine Months Later, I think they wanted to show the range of what the Spore Drive can do by giving us examples of something we know. It can take us not only through Space, but also through Time (nine months later) and through Different Universes (The Mirror Universe). Time might've been Bryan Fuller's idea for how Discovery would've gotten to the TNG Era. Different Universes an "out" if, in the future, what he did with the Prime Timeline turned out to be unpopular and he could say the crew only thought they were in the Prime Timeline or come up with some roundabout PR bullshit excuse like "They end up in the Prime Timeline!" as a fail-safe.
If, emphasis on if, Fuller's intention was to spend one season in each of the timeframes, then Harberts & Berg probably felt that it wasn't enough to just go from the Klingon War to the Mirror Universe to "TNG" (quotations because I'm using it as a shorthand for TNG/DS9/VOY/Post-NEM/Picard). Also, once the Picard Series became a thing, presumably they didn't want DSC to go there because the Picard Series might have its own ideas about what they wanted to do with that timeframe that wouldn't have meshed with DSC's ideas. So they probably opted to skip out on going to "TNG".
I don't know at what point the Picard Series was thought up as a concept, but at the end of developing the story for the first season, Harberts & Berg had a choice of going to another time frame at the end of the Mirror Universe Arc or stay in the same timeframe. They probably decided there was more story to tell in the 23rd Century and decided to only jump nine months. Basically the same time period but just enough of a difference in the Klingon War that the crew would be wondering "What the Hell happened?" when they got back. And then there was the finish, which was a rush.
So that brings us to Season 2. By now they've heard the complaints about Spock having a sister, Discovery having its Spore Drive, and why Kirk never mentioned or was involved in a Klingon War. I'll address each of these one-by-one but not in the order I mentioned:
First: Pike says the Enterprise was on a five-year mission far away and that's why he was never involved in The War. If the Enterprise can be "too far away", then so can the Farragut. One issue addressed. Whether or not it's to everyone's satisfaction is another story.
Second: Complaints about Spock having a sister. They came up with the Red Angel concept. Now they have time travel in play. Mysticism in play. And they can use "timey-wimey" to explain away Burnham and why she's never mentioned. I don't think why she's never mentioned had to be addressed but they felt it needed to be addressed, so I'm defending their position and not what I personally think. What I personally think is: he never mentioned her because it never came up.
Third: Time travel can conveniently be used to explain away why the Spore Drive isn't used on ships after Discovery. On top of what Culber's precence in the Mycellial Network was doing to it. They used the echo of Culber in the Mycellial Network as a way to get them out of another criticism: that Discovery had fallen into The "Kill Your Gays" Trope. So, as far as Harberts & Berg wrote, the Spore Drive probably would've been dangerous to Mycellial Life and would've been lost. This is where it gets hairy. It's hard to say if the Spore Drive would've been responsible for time travel or the Red Angel in their version of the full DSC S2, but I'm leaning towards the Red Angel. Either way, the Spore Drive being lost from this time period is a way to get it out of the 23rd Century.
Then we get to Alex Kurtzman taking over before Michelle Paradise steps in. I think, and a lot of us think, he discarded or changed Berg & Harberts original plan for the second season. I think he's the one who came up with Control. Control would serve two purposes. First is to serve as the reason he'd want for why Discovery can't return to the 23rd Century once it leaves there, so this is his answer and his take on the previous showrunners' ideas and putting his own stamp on it. The second purpose is to have it interface with Airiam. He might've -- emphasis on might've -- decided to use Airiam's undeleted memories as the basis for what leads to the creation of Zora. If he was looking for a direction for the series to go, in the wake of Berg & Harberts being fired, he probably looked to "Calypso" for inspiration and his new guide. And you can't have Zora unless it's in a timeframe much later than the 23rd Century. And Control is the reason to keep them out of there.
Long story short: I don't necessarily think Kurtzman or Harberts & Berg intended to stick to Bryan Fuller's outline, so much as they just partially found their way back to it.
And IF Discovery leaves the 23rd Century, then they have the Section 31 Series, the Academy Series, and a Pike Series (if they make one and assuming it's not also the Academy Series) to continue what they developed there, along with whatever else they might come up with in the future. The groundwork for the CBSAA's 23rd Century has already been laid down. Michelle Paradise would get the honor of developing the groundwork for a whole other timeframe that takes place in a foreign time after everything else we've seen. Something that hasn't been done in Star Trek since 1987.
Done. The rest will have to wait until after Thursday, or someone else can pick up my end of the slack.
We all know Harberts/Berg, Kurtzman, and now Paradise have inherited Fuller's creation. So they had to decide what to do with it. Kurtzman seems like an interim showrunner. He wants to be the "Rick Berman" handling the Bigger Picture, not the "Michael Piller" handling the day-to-day. So, post-Fuller, we really have Harbert/Berg's vision of what they wanted to do and Michelle Paradise's vision of what she wants to do.
I don't know if Bryan Fuller wanted to include the Mirror Universe or if that's something Harberts/Berg added, or how far along they got in planning out the season before Fuller left, but if the Mycellial Network took them from the Mirror Universe to Nine Months Later, I think they wanted to show the range of what the Spore Drive can do by giving us examples of something we know. It can take us not only through Space, but also through Time (nine months later) and through Different Universes (The Mirror Universe). Time might've been Bryan Fuller's idea for how Discovery would've gotten to the TNG Era. Different Universes an "out" if, in the future, what he did with the Prime Timeline turned out to be unpopular and he could say the crew only thought they were in the Prime Timeline or come up with some roundabout PR bullshit excuse like "They end up in the Prime Timeline!" as a fail-safe.
If, emphasis on if, Fuller's intention was to spend one season in each of the timeframes, then Harberts & Berg probably felt that it wasn't enough to just go from the Klingon War to the Mirror Universe to "TNG" (quotations because I'm using it as a shorthand for TNG/DS9/VOY/Post-NEM/Picard). Also, once the Picard Series became a thing, presumably they didn't want DSC to go there because the Picard Series might have its own ideas about what they wanted to do with that timeframe that wouldn't have meshed with DSC's ideas. So they probably opted to skip out on going to "TNG".
I don't know at what point the Picard Series was thought up as a concept, but at the end of developing the story for the first season, Harberts & Berg had a choice of going to another time frame at the end of the Mirror Universe Arc or stay in the same timeframe. They probably decided there was more story to tell in the 23rd Century and decided to only jump nine months. Basically the same time period but just enough of a difference in the Klingon War that the crew would be wondering "What the Hell happened?" when they got back. And then there was the finish, which was a rush.
So that brings us to Season 2. By now they've heard the complaints about Spock having a sister, Discovery having its Spore Drive, and why Kirk never mentioned or was involved in a Klingon War. I'll address each of these one-by-one but not in the order I mentioned:
First: Pike says the Enterprise was on a five-year mission far away and that's why he was never involved in The War. If the Enterprise can be "too far away", then so can the Farragut. One issue addressed. Whether or not it's to everyone's satisfaction is another story.
Second: Complaints about Spock having a sister. They came up with the Red Angel concept. Now they have time travel in play. Mysticism in play. And they can use "timey-wimey" to explain away Burnham and why she's never mentioned. I don't think why she's never mentioned had to be addressed but they felt it needed to be addressed, so I'm defending their position and not what I personally think. What I personally think is: he never mentioned her because it never came up.
Third: Time travel can conveniently be used to explain away why the Spore Drive isn't used on ships after Discovery. On top of what Culber's precence in the Mycellial Network was doing to it. They used the echo of Culber in the Mycellial Network as a way to get them out of another criticism: that Discovery had fallen into The "Kill Your Gays" Trope. So, as far as Harberts & Berg wrote, the Spore Drive probably would've been dangerous to Mycellial Life and would've been lost. This is where it gets hairy. It's hard to say if the Spore Drive would've been responsible for time travel or the Red Angel in their version of the full DSC S2, but I'm leaning towards the Red Angel. Either way, the Spore Drive being lost from this time period is a way to get it out of the 23rd Century.
Then we get to Alex Kurtzman taking over before Michelle Paradise steps in. I think, and a lot of us think, he discarded or changed Berg & Harberts original plan for the second season. I think he's the one who came up with Control. Control would serve two purposes. First is to serve as the reason he'd want for why Discovery can't return to the 23rd Century once it leaves there, so this is his answer and his take on the previous showrunners' ideas and putting his own stamp on it. The second purpose is to have it interface with Airiam. He might've -- emphasis on might've -- decided to use Airiam's undeleted memories as the basis for what leads to the creation of Zora. If he was looking for a direction for the series to go, in the wake of Berg & Harberts being fired, he probably looked to "Calypso" for inspiration and his new guide. And you can't have Zora unless it's in a timeframe much later than the 23rd Century. And Control is the reason to keep them out of there.
Long story short: I don't necessarily think Kurtzman or Harberts & Berg intended to stick to Bryan Fuller's outline, so much as they just partially found their way back to it.
And IF Discovery leaves the 23rd Century, then they have the Section 31 Series, the Academy Series, and a Pike Series (if they make one and assuming it's not also the Academy Series) to continue what they developed there, along with whatever else they might come up with in the future. The groundwork for the CBSAA's 23rd Century has already been laid down. Michelle Paradise would get the honor of developing the groundwork for a whole other timeframe that takes place in a foreign time after everything else we've seen. Something that hasn't been done in Star Trek since 1987.
Done. The rest will have to wait until after Thursday, or someone else can pick up my end of the slack.
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I'm really not gatekeeping anything. If it came off that way, sincere apologies...it was meant as a discussion point aimed at one individual who I directed a reply to. I was simply stating my opinion that there are people who are genuinely trying hard, but just don't like the show at its core, and no matter what, if you really don't like the core elements of the show (characters, pacing, setting, themes, narrative choices, whatever it may be), the likelihood of you resonating with emotional character scenes is going to be pretty low. I think that's a fact. I don't see it as "gatekeeping." It wasn't meant to say "go away" or "you can't comment" to anyone else. It was, however, meant to generate some discussion around our self awareness and motivations. I didn't think that was off-limits. If my post was unclear or inaccurately reflected my intent due to poor phrasing, apologies.
My wife watches "This Is Us" and ends up in tears every episode. I generally sit in the corner of the room reading and trying not to laugh. Why? I don't like the show very much. It doesn't connect with me for whatever reason. Even if I try, it ain't gonna happen.
I think that's a fair discussion point to bring up, considering the polarized reaction the "farewell" scenes in DSC's latest episode have produced in this thread. People seem to really like them or really hate them, in general. I find that fascinating, that's all.
If not, I'll shut the hell up and go away (haha)! It's not that important to me that I'd want to argue about it or have anyone personally offended by it.
EDIT: There was a sentence or two in my last paragraph that was way too much. I agree that was not well-worded...thank you.
My working theory, until we see the finale, is that the writers knowing that this is a permanent jump, a real separation of the Discovery characters from the 23rd century, felt like they needed to include these permanent goodbyes. However, given a full story in what is now part two and the likely clunkiness of trying to fit these goodbyes into the thick of the action, found a way to add them in part 1.
Definitely guesses on my part. And, if it turns out to be not be a real separation but a fake out, I'd agree it was a waste of screen. But, I'm guessing there was a reason they did it prior to the conclusion, and it'll all become clear. Time will tell!
True.
Or a fistful of Datas.
One person's padding is another person's character development and authentic reaction to what appears to be an impending, permanent separation from their loved ones.You can want to see the show succeed and still realize padding is padding.
My bigger problem with the episode was that it wasn't all shown in one part. Splitting it in two parts clumped all of those goodbyes together like that. But, I'm guessing they had storytelling reasons for doing that. We'll see.
Anyway, different strokes for different folks!
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It's not what. It's how.
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Now what what?
I think what’s being said is that we need more pets in this show.
This is exactly how I feel. They’ve built their 23rd century world and I’m enjoying it. I’m not interested in a time jump and don’t see the necessity for it.
If they do intend to move to the future, there is risk involved with that.
I stoked right now because I really have no idea what's going to happen
Weird alien pets.
I think they're tapping into the original concept for the series to some extent. The original idea was that it would shift times.
That said, they did build a nice universe that we're leaving. Always a risk but it depends on the execution of what they do next.
Extra pointy ears would suffice for me.
They go back in time and end up fighting the Romulan war
Star Trek - Discovery Time Tunnel
Star Trek - Discovery Time Tunnel
Too many characters acting like drama kings and queens is not good and has nothing to do with "caring." In fact, one could argue it is a very selfish expression. Why not just make them all sashes they can wear with the word "MARTYR" emblazoned on it? If you were working with people like these you'd be telling them to "JUST SHUT UP ALREADY AND DO THE FREAKING JOB!"
It is not whether emotions exists or displayed, but rather the degree to which it exists and is dispalyed. Discovery, especially this episode, was extreme and exaggerated. TOS has nothing near comparable. Even in "The Empath" McCoy just did what he felt he had to. He didn't wallow in it for 2 segments prior and make sure Kirk & Spock knew what sacrifices he was making on their behalf.
Even when sentimentality exists that may not automatically by a negative. I they had crafted just one scene that would have been acceptable if not at least excusable. They kept having them one right after another. Again, the law of diminishing returns kicks in.
