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Spoilers Star Trek: Discovery 2x09 - "Project Daedalus"

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About Patar, we have real world examples of people who belong to groups with extreme views serving in the military. It seems as long as these people function within the rules set by the service , they can continue to serve. The moment these people breach these rules, they can be subject to expulsion. Having risen to the admiralty, as Patar did, would seem to imply that she had the capacity of living with the rules and regulations of Starfleet, even as she held to deeply prejudiced views of non-Vulcans. We have seen individuals in Starfleet before who were bigoted to other species.
 
Lt. Stiles practically wanted to punch Spock after seeing that Romulans looked almost exactly like Vulcans. The most visceral bigotry we see in humans in TOS if you don't count Khan's dismissive and self-righteous attitudes about non-Augment humans and how he implies his superior breed of homo sapiens will do well in the 23rd century.
 
from the funeral "For many of us who never had the time to get to know her, Commander Airiam was a mystery. For the rest of us who recently checked out all her downloaded memories someone uploaded to the public share... WOW. (awkward pause) Seriously, why did she save that one thing? You know the one I mean.. anyway, I think Nilsson knew her best and she'd like to say a few words if the director ever lets her speak"
 
That still doesn't explain why Patar would even want to join Starfleet.

Probably for the same reason that all those Vulcans who only wanted to serve on ships crewed by Vulcans did? Like why did Solok from 'Take me out to the holosuite' want to be in starfleet, when he thought all non-vulcan races sucked?

Maybe, Patar became a logic extremist after entering Starfleet and was using her position to benefit the cause in some way. Perhaps she was in a position to set policy (like allowing starships to have vulcan only crews) that benefited the logic extremists in some way?

I don't know. Personally I think it was unnecessary to make Patar a logic extremist in addition to the head of S31. I mean we get it, she's not a nice person.
 
We don't see the right side getting ripped off. However, when she's crawling on the floor, it does look like it's gone and that side of her face looks wounded like the left side; the breathing device is usually very visible. Then later on, when we see that she has pushed the button to eject Airiam, she has the right side of the breather on, and is holding the end close to her mouth and gasping but clearly getting enough to survive.

No idea if they just filmed it both ways or cut some footage.
 
We don't see the right side getting ripped off. However, when she's crawling on the floor, it does look like it's gone and that side of her face looks wounded like the left side; the breathing device is usually very visible. Then later on, when we see that she has pushed the button to eject Airiam, she has the right side of the breather on, and is holding the end close to her mouth and gasping but clearly getting enough to survive.

No idea if they just filmed it both ways or cut some footage.
Yeah, Airiam definitely only grabs the left side and Nhan is holding the left side of her face immediately afterwards as she's flying through the air, but then the right side is suddenly missing. Since we haven't had a good look at the entire apparatus, I suppose that we can postulate that the entire thing wraps around her head so grabbing one side tears the other off as well.
 
No need to direct this toward anyone individually, since many have raised it...

I see no reason to think Nhan's EV suit would come pre-loaded with anything other than the same standard oxygen-based mix as everyone else's. That's what Nhan customarily breathes on duty, as seen both shipboard and stationside, so why would she be breathing something else when in the suit? Whether her tubes are adding in an exotic element, filtering out one toxic to her, or both, or neither—hey, for all we know, the issue isn't actually the atmospheric composition itself so much as a congenital defect of the upper respiratory system common among her species—they're what she requires, suit or no suit.

It's her own personal one, yes, but there's no indication it's specialized in any way beyond standard-issue. Could a suit theoretically be prepared beforehand for use by a Barzan sans additional apparatus? Surely. But do we imagine any party member could mid-mission merely say "adjust suit environment to Barzan parameters" and it would happen just like that, on the fly? If that were possible, I bet there would be people here complaining about how it's too advanced for this timeframe and too convenient to this plot! And that would of course be a whole different debate...yet one which is thankfully beside the point here, as when Airiam throws Nhan against the wall her suit cam goes offline, so it's plausible that other suit functions could readily be malfunctioning, too:

extant-Star-Trek-Discovery-2x09-Project-Daedalus-4889.jpg


As for the purported "plot hole" regarding the transporter, it was stated that lifesigns aboard the station could not be detected from outside by design, due to its former function as a prison, so perhaps in the absence of this measure being defeated they would have had to return to the beam-in coordinates to be beamed back? But here again, whether the act of transporting Airiam to Discovery could be accomplished or not is ultimately a matter immaterial (no pun intended) in context.

As far as Pike knows, beaming Airiam back onto Discovery only means beaming her back to continue doing Control's work for it. This would represent a direct threat not only to the safety of his crew and their vessel, but to the present and future Federation, galactic community at large, and apparently potentially even the entire timeline. It had already proven itself superior in capability to his resident expert in hacking Airiam to begin with, and now it had further received a full quarter of the data it was after. Who knows how fast it might evolve itself just based on that? Pike is not about to bring it back on board to find out, handing it a second bite at the rest of the apple in the process.

It's a situation somewhat akin to "Where No Man Has Gone Before" (TOS), and as @IMC Headquarters pointed out somewhere back in depths of this thread, Spock's advice here falls along similar lines:

SPOCK: It is the only possible way to get Mitchell off this ship.
KIRK: If you mean strand Mitchell there, I won't do it. That station is fully automated. There's not a soul on the whole planet. Even the ore ships call only once every twenty years.
SPOCK: Then you have one other choice. Kill Mitchell while you still can.
KIRK: Get out of here.
SPOCK: It is your only other choice, assuming you make it while you still have time.
KIRK: Will you try for one moment to feel? At least act like you've got a heart. We're talking about Gary.
SPOCK: The captain of the Valiant probably felt the same way, and he waited too long to make his decision...

Kirk opted to try containing Mitchell, but again and again, he proved more powerful still, and ultimately Kirk ended up having to kill his friend anyway.

For all we know, Airiam's fate could have been far worse than the death she asked for, had she not been granted it then. Her willing sacrifice of herself to save her friends (not to mention all else at stake here) reminded me somewhat of Spock's in TWOK. Remember, she's the one who initially suggests this course of action in the last rally of free will she can muster; the agency is hers, even though she can't pull the plug unassisted. Despite Burnham's protestations, no one had thus far demonstrated any better ability to resist Control's hold on her than Airiam herself, and her own efforts were proving insufficient. Who would want to go on being the arms and legs of a murderer, locked in a futile struggle to prevent one's not-self from inflicting pain on those one loves, and many more beyond that? Not Airiam, if she has any choice about it.

We know that Pike is not a callous or unfeeling captain, but one who agonizes over "deciding who lives and who dies," and is willing to go great lengths for an individual member of his crew, if he thinks it warranted. He may not have said the words out loud, but it seems obvious to me that he must feel going any farther in this case would be unwarranted and irresponsible given the situation, or else he wouldn't have ordered Burnham to open the airlock. And everyone except Burnham—who, as ever, still wants to try it her own way, and could be quite right in persisting, or might just as easily be entirely wrong, but in either case fails in her only concrete plan of action, and can offer no other beyond the platitude "we can fight this"—clearly concurs with Airiam's analysis as to the best option in the moment, or else they'd be suggesting otherwise. Pike already asked them for ideas. Open the airlock it is, then.

If you're saying you'd have liked the prospect of a "Hail Mary" along the lines of transporting her into a containment field, hoping that it would hold Control until hopefully they'd be able to find some other workaround, to be verbalized and shot down as too risky and/or impracticable, I suppose that's fair enough. It could well have detracted from the urgency of the scene, but on the other hand, maybe it would have been a worthy inclusion too...who can say? However, if you're suggesting that should have been the actual outcome? I can't get behind that at all, neither in terms of drama nor story logic.

-MMoM:D
 
Regarding transporting, it defies reason that the heroes would even attempt to brave the minefield in the first place. They're within visual range of the prison station - surely they are also within transporter and weapons range? There doesn't seem to be anything to be gained by trying to navigate the minefield. If anything, the ship would be less advantageously situated for providing fire cover or whatnot if nudged close to the S31 base.

When Cornwell accuses Patar of being a logic extremist, is that an insult, or a neutral specifying of her political leanings? We never learn that holding this particular political view (or any view at that) would be forbidden for Starfleet officers. Sarek certainly appears surprised that his would-be assassin should be part of that party/movement/school of thought - but our impression of this being an underground movement let alone a criminal organization may be wholly incorrect. Sarek could merely be saying "Ah, a lie? Your record has you as a Moderate Sophist. A logical move for a Logic Extremist, I grant you that, took me by surprise."...

Timo Saloniemi
 
I've been ill all week and at 50 pages I won't be catching up.

8/10 another great episode, it's a strong season overall.

I hope somehow Ariam is saved, no doubt everything I want to say has already been said over the past 50 pages.

Couldn't the Discovery just have beamed Ariam out into space/the brig?
 
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There must have been something fancy going on with the beaming, even if the dialogue gives us no hints. It would make absolute sense for a former prison to be able to restrict beaming. But the only hiccup in getting the boarding party in seems to be with Detmer keeping them "in range".

Perhaps the prison defenses reduce transporter range to mere hundreds of meters, much as through solid rock? Kirk's ship didn't have the option of moving to within a hundred meters of Tantalus V, and may have had problems doing that with the smaller Elba II, too, so the shields of those places could really have been impenetrable to the heroes. Here, Pike's ship can navigate a bit more freely, and perhaps needs to.

Timo Saloniemi
 
That one's easy. Because money.
nope - to prevent people who might actually work for the uk to acchieve someting substantial in brussels from getting elected in the first place

the cash is just the icing on the cake (that's the one to have and eat it, too)
 
Okay, let's run with that.

Given the existence of the Quebec separatist movement, would it not surprise you if a person FROM Quebec - and who openly identified themselves as part of such a splinter group - were to join the Canadian military?

Because, as I said...why would they want to?
Not at all surprising. I’ve met several. I also have relatives who are separatists who are currently, or about to be, collecting their generous federal government pensions for having been federal civil servants their whole working lives.
 
nope - to prevent people who might actually work for the uk to acchieve someting substantial in brussels from getting elected in the first place

the cash is just the icing on the cake (that's the one to have and eat it, too)

Under that logic, it makes sense a separatist would join the Federation government, not Starfleet. Starfleet is not a legislative role, it's quasi-military. You can't gum up the works much without being insubordinate or committing mutiny.

Mind you, I could see someone wanting to join Starfleet for the needed training in order to be an effective separatist, but they would neither want to become an admiral nor be offered it.
 
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