Spoilers Star Trek: Discovery 2x09 - "Project Daedalus"

[cultcross]

Season 1 was not really attempting to be GoT in space. Not in the slightest. Game of Thrones is noted for having an epic scope, loads of characters, lots and lots of character development via one-on-one dialogue, many different factions - all of which are a different shade of gray - sniping around an existential threat...and stupidly gratuitous use of sex and nudity. Discovery's first season had none of those things at all.

Game of Thrones in Space is quite obviously The Expanse.

Completely agree. Discovery Season 1 wasn't anything like Game of Thrones. It focuses on a small group of characters on the frontline of a war, which is completely contrary to GoT's global scope and multi POV storytelling. People dying doesn't make it Game of Thrones anymore than it makes it Order of the Phoenix.

 

[Rahul]

This episode sure passed the Bechdel Test, too. For what it's worth, the only talk at all about relationships was between Spock and Stamets and passing remarks between Burnham and Pike.

The show has no shortage of strong female characters up and down the cast.

The only real beef I have with the episode is it seemed Saru cracked the case a little too easily, and one wonders why someone didn't think of that earlier. But that happens.

I actually think the "Bechdel Test" is nothing any single episode should be measured by - it's more a statistic value, where you can have large numbers of works, and then see the discrepancies. For any given episode, weather it might or might not pass the test, has actually not that much meaning.

That being said - yeah, the amount of female presentation in this show is exemplary. As I said before - I have quite a few female friends watching the show as well. Something I'm not that used to for Star Trek. That's great.

Wasn't there even something like comments from Berman & Co., where they said their producers told them their shows were supposed to have at least 2/3s males in leading roles, otherwise viewers would assume it's "a women show"? Glad that these days are over!

 

[seigezunt]

I yelled ... SPOCK'S BRAIN !!!! BRAIN AND BRAIN!!!

 

[seigezunt]

I didn't have the problem with the "okay let's give this character all her back story and then kill her off" like some people. Main characters in other Trek shows have gone years without as much back story. I found it heartbreaking and appropriate.

 

[Alan Roi]

You said the meme stops people from seeing the nuances. Which I even kinda' agree with, though I made clear that the "broakd strokes" (aka "the meme") is more important for judgement for the whole picture. You never made a point that "the meme" was actually not applicaple in this situation.

I actually pointed this out before you went all meme crazy, but here it is again.

Please explain how your broad stroke meme jives with Spock only getting angry with Burnham and literally not one other person he interacts with? And even when he interacts with Burnham, his behavior varies depending on the situation and to what degree she is provoking him and he uses different degrees of attempting to get his point across when she doesn't respond the way he wants. He has a genial relationship with Pike. He is not belligerant with Cornwell even when she suggests he is lying. He is a bit stuffy with Stamets, but quickly gains a working rapport and even offers a helpful observation regarding Culber. How does this present a broad stroke and generic characterization?

Crickets.

 

[cultcross]

This episode sure passed the Bechdel Test, too. For what it's worth, the only talk at all about relationships was between Spock and Stamets and passing remarks between Burnham and Pike.

The show has no shortage of strong female characters up and down the cast.
.

Excellent point.

 

[Rahul]

Completely agree. Discovery Season 1 wasn't anything like Game of Thrones. It focuses on a small group of characters on the frontline of a war, which is completely contrary to GoT's global scope and multi POV storytelling. People dying doesn't make it Game of Thrones anymore than it makes it Order of the Phoenix.

I actually don't think they succeeded in making it "GoT", but IMO it's obvious they at least tried a little bit. Though even then I still think the larger influence comes from nuBattlestar Galactica (which is IMO undersold as an influence on "GoT", much like "Rome", people like to pretend GoT arrived without precursers).

That being said - it's actually quite interesting how "small scale" the first season of GoT actually is. Yes, they had more fractions (which they tried with the Klingons on DIS), but GoT also started out with only two major storylines (Boromir Stark and a bit of the rest of his family), and then simply spread out more over time. The biggest difference is IMO GoT put more emphasize on it's background characters right from the start - but it still also had a very obvious "lead" character in it's first season.

 

[locborg]

Didnt read the whole thread so sorry if this came up before. When Airiam downloaded her memory to the computer i instantly had to think about that Short Trek Episode „Calypso“. I guess some of her consciousness was transferred to the main computer (happens all the time in trek) and due to some freak of technonature Airiam takes over Discovery controls 1000 years in the future. Since Red Angel is into time travel he/she might be responsible for Discovery beeing there...

 

[matthunter]

I didn't have the problem with the "okay let's give this character all her back story and then kill her off" like some people. Main characters in other Trek shows have gone years without as much back story. I found it heartbreaking and appropriate.

It also worked in TNG's Lower Decks.

 

[donners22]

Really enjoyed this one!

A few highlights:

- The lower decks crew interactions. Give them more time!
- The Spock-Burnham interactions. "Perhaps I simply dislike rooks" cracked me up.
- Ariam's death was touching, and the actress did a great job with her voice to sell it through the prosthetics.
- The Pike-Cornwell confrontation
- Burnham’s Kirk-fu, including the double-fisted punch and drop kick!

 

[donners22]

I didn't have the problem with the "okay let's give this character all her back story and then kill her off" like some people. Main characters in other Trek shows have gone years without as much back story. I found it heartbreaking and appropriate.

DS9 did it for Enrique Muniz, too. Voyager even tried to do it with Joe Carey - they only gave him a family and a bit of personality just before killing him off (and that's after he'd been missing for years). I think Discovery did it better than both those examples, particularly the latter.

Further, there would be ethical issues. Did they get her permission to do what they did? Is someone automatically given the type of life they gave her if needed, or do they get to refuse it?

Maybe the DNR equivalent in the 23rd century is "Do Not Robot"?

 

[Shon T'Hara]

At this point, with how much the show has focused on Sarek's family being targeted by logic extremists, I really want Sybok to come into this. The story of how Sarek's other son became an anti-logic extremist is dying to be told here.

 

[Jadeb]

Maybe the DNR equivalent in the 23rd century is "Do Not Robot"?

Doughnut robut?

 

[Gilora]

Maybe the DNR equivalent in the 23rd century is "Do Not Robot"?

In all seriousness, maybe Pike had one of these, which would explain why, later on, the injured Pike was chaired rather than cyborged.

 

[cultcross]

GoT also started out with only two major storylines (Boromir Stark and Winterfell),

and Dany & the Dothraki, and the Lannisters in Kings Landing, and Theon, Jon going to the wall, Arya's rebellion and her escape, Tyrion's capture and trial, all in season 1. Several in episode 1. Discovery didn't adopt that style of storytelling at all, keeping things focused on a central character's journey.

In all seriousness, maybe Pike had one of these, which would explain why, later on, the injured Pike was chaired rather than cyborged.

Or radiation isn't curable by augmentation in the way physical trauma might be, I suppose

 

[eschaton]

In stories, scenes are about advancing the character, world and plot. There's more than one way to get this done. One isn't necessary more "real" than the other. It depends on how one wants to tell the story they are telling.

My point is Discovery has a tendency to focus too heavily on the plot at the expense of character. It's improved markedly this season, and is getting better still as the season draws to a close, but still in many cases the character development only comes as part of the plot of the week (Saru's two focus episodes, Burnham's interactions with Spock, etc).

I actually don't think they succeeded in making it "GoT", but IMO it's obvious they at least tried a little bit. Though even then I still think the larger influence comes from nuBattlestar Galactica (which is IMO undersold as an influence on "GoT", much like "Rome", people like to pretend GoT arrived without precursers).

The first season of Game of Thrones was (minus the gratuitous sex) a straight-up, almost 100% faithful adaptation of the first book (which came out in 1996). Things like NuBSG and Rome may have influenced why they chose to adapt the book, and certainly influenced things like the direction and visual choices. But the actual plot had nothing to do with anything else on TV at the time. It all comes from the book, which is basically a deconstruction of the tropes of high fantasy. Basically the first book/season is to a large extent a tragedy focusing on Ned Stark, showing how being "good and honorable" is not sufficient when you're dealing with medieval court politics.

The "anyone could die" thing came from the books too. GRRM loved doing this in part to tweak fans. But writing a book is fundamentally different from a TV show, because the characters have fixed arcs, after which they're gone. When shows are writing without the net of a book source, in contrast, there's a big pressure to keep breakout characters around when it makes no story sense. Note how in the last two years of GoT - when they ran out of book material - they basically stopped killing off the main characters.

That being said - it's actually quite interesting how "small scale" the first season of GoT actually is. Yes, they had more fractions (which they tried with the Klingons on DIS), but GoT also started out with only two major storylines (Boromir Stark and a bit of the rest of his family), and then simply spread out more over time. The biggest difference is IMO GoT put more emphasize on it's background characters right from the start - but it still also had a very obvious "lead" character in it's first season.

A lot of that was due to the source book itself. Some of it was also because the show dealt with significant budgetary limitations in the first season it didn't have in the later seasons. So, for example, the battle in Baelor almost entirely off camera while Tyrion is unconscious.

Still, there were basically six different plot lines in the first season:

1. The journey down to, and stay in, King's Landing by Ned, Arya, and Sansa
2. Bran at Winterfell
3. Jon at The Wall
4. Daenerys in Essos
5. Tyrion's adventures
6. Robb marching off to war

That's rather a lot for ten episodes, but they pull it off.

 

[Jayson1]

Definitely agreed. I was one of the people who said they should have done the early scenes of Airiam interacting with the crew and reviewing her memories in previous episodes to develop her character over time. But if it had to be done in one episode this was extremely well done. I didn't care about this character before, but I really felt for her when even she herself was asking Burnham to open the airlock. Job well done by the actors, writer and director.

I was surprised about Spock giving advice to Stamets. How does he know anything about Culber? I guess his sister filled him in.

I think the death works because not only do we sort of get a glimpse of who she was and why she has the tech but I think in some ways the lack of her use also kind of helped. Even though she is human she doesn't really act human on the outside. She does kind of act like a robot that you almost don't think of as a person. But then you get a glimpse inside and realize their is this deep person with all this humanity that you don't even know is their and she must on some level be kind of sad that maybe even her friends don't understand her is kind of tragic.

To not have the people you care about not really understand what your all about is kind of sad because we want people we care about to get us. Even with friends you got assume she must also had been living a very lonely existence. One that might not have even been the case before the accident and had to get the tech. It does also sort of make you wonder what life was like for Pike in the future when he was trapped in that one,two beep wheelchair and not able to fully communicate with people in the way you want to.

Jason

 

[Gilora]

and Dany & the Dothraki, and the Lannisters in Kings Landing, and Theon, Jon going to the wall, Arya's rebellion and her escape, Tyrion's capture and trial, all in season 1. Several in episode 1. Discovery didn't adopt that style of storytelling at all, keeping things focused on a central character's journey.


Or radiation isn't curable by augmentation in the way physical trauma might be, I suppose

Also possible. But this was mentioned before in this thread, I think.

 

[Silanda]

I could only give this a 7 due to two things irritating me intensely: Burnham completely ignoring Nhan when she was potentially dying on the floor, and the lack of any on screen reason for why Nhan and Airiam couldn't have been beamed back. You don't die instantly in a vacuum either, so it should have been possible to retrieve her even after she'd been blown out of the airlock.

I'm not normally one to nit pick, but when a character is killed off there shouldn't be an easy way to save them that went unexplored for no apparent reason.

 

[cultcross]

The transporter could also have been used to disable Control by beaming bits into space, if they had transporter access to beam in. I'm just headsplaining that the transporter was unavailable and living with it because the ending was worth it. My assumption is that Control let them in because it wanted Airiam then threw up the shields.