Spoilers Star Trek: Discovery 2x03 - "Point of Light"

[Tuskin38]

Come to think of it, it looks like their screen graphics people are adapting to the Mandel symbology there...

Didn’t they also do that in season one?

 

[Vger23]

I think a lot of the negativity on the interwebs aimed at the this episode is a massive reaction from all the fans who had convinced themselves of the "disgruntled message board fan wet dream" that "TEH PRODOOSERS LISIND TO WE TEH PHANS!!!1!" and implemented the tonal changes in the first two episodes of the season in compliant and terrified response.

If anything, "Point of Light" proves two things:

1. S1 of Star Trek: Discovery is still alive and well. This isn't going to be Star Trek: Voyager Redux quite yet.

2. The creative team was doing what they planned on doing all along with regard to filtering in tonal changes, and it had nothing to do with reading your bitching and moaning online.

 

[Vger23]

Burnham mentioned this in the very first episode.

You know Burnham isn't the first star trek character to excel in multiple fields or be good at everything right? Let's use Picard for example.

- Was the youngest ever to win the Starfleet decathlon
- Was touted by Richard Galen, to be the greatest archaeologist of his generation, had he not gone into starfleet.
- became a captain in his thirties
- has a tactical maneuver named after him, which is studied at the academy
- considered one of starfleet's best diplomats
- attractive younger women were always into him
- Of all the billions of humans, he was the one to garner the attention of a omnipotent being to challenge.

But yeah burnham = mary sue or whatever

Absolutely. Star Trek (for better or worse) has always been about amazing heroes with amazing skills.

 

[DEWLine]

Didn’t they also do that in season one?

Not quite so obviously. The triangles for bases/outposts, the symbology for multi-stellar systems and its colour-coding...those, I think, are new to DSC...or maybe I'm wrong again?

 

[Tuskin38]

Season 1 def had the triangles. First half of season one has many shots with maps. On bridge panels and in Lorca’s ready room

I think I made a thread on it let me check my post history

Edit: hm I didn’t. I know I did post map comparisons in late 2017

Must have been in someone else’s thread

Edit:

This is from Season 1, it has the colouring

Though the most common map seen on screen was this one, which is just blue and red

 

[The Mighty Monkey of Mim]

Thinking about it more this morning, what was the point of the Klingon plot?

To continue the storylines of Tyler, L'Rell, and Mirror-Georgiou from where they left off at the end of the previous season?

In the past if there was an alien entity living as a parasite inside a main cast member and trying to communicate the entire episode (or at least one of the two plots) would be focused on trying to determine what it wants. Here Tilly just ignores everything it says, and wants it out immediately. While an understandable reaction due to visceral horror, it doesn't keep with 'seeking new life."

My only serious complaint was Tilly not ONCE asking "what is your plan?" or "what do you want?" If they want to hold off that reveal, they shouldn't have had May constantly repeating "this isn't my plan!" and "this isn't what I want!" Stop prompting an obvious follow-up question if you can't have the character ask it yet!

Tilly's spore. WHY didn't she say, "What DO you want?"

...and they just randomly pull ghost girl out because oh boy have to have mystery for the rest of the season instead of Tilly just going "What do you even want?".

Why the fuck wouldn't she just ask what her damn plan was? Just seemed so stupid to have May constantly talk about a plan and never have Tilly ask about what she means.

But that's probably exactly what will come next. It's a serialized show. Just wait for the next episode.

I mean, this stuck out to me as well, but I can totally understand Tilly taking the attitude: "How about you get out of me first, and then we'll talk."

I'm thinking that these creatures inhabit the mycelial network, and what they want will be for Discovery to stop trampling all over their carefully-maintained backyard hedges with their spore drive. (Anyone else wondering if they might even be related to the "sporocystian" Nacene, the species of the Caretaker, who transported Voyager to the Delta Quadrant?)

I thought it was the bird of prey seen in Enterprise that was the big mistake? Or were there multiple ENT Klingon mistakes? I wasn't watching all that hard.

Oh boy.

"As you were. To break this information down succinctly..."

First, people were upset that "Broken Bow" (ENT) showed first contact with the Klingons in 2151, because the Okuda Chronology had posited it took place in 2218, based on a cut line from an early draft of "Day Of The Dove" (TOS) that implied it had taken place fifty years prior—the very same line that stated the Federation had always managed to avoid outright war with them, BTW—even though it was never in the episode as filmed and aired, and even though Picard said it took place "centuries ago" onscreen in "First Contact" (TNG).

One of the Vulcan overseers there also refers to Klingon ships as "warbirds"; people were upset because this had only been used in reference to Romulan ships before (nevermind that "bird of prey" was too, until it wasn't). They 'corrected' themselves in "Sleeping Dogs" (ENT) and used "birds of prey"; some people were then upset that this messed with behind-the-scenes intent from "The Enterprise Incident" (TOS) and STIII, to the effect that the Klingons had a military alliance with the Romulans in the 2260s, the theory being that Klingons received birds-of-prey with cloaks in exchange for their D-7s—even though this was never stated onscreen in either the episode (where the Rommies are simply said to now be using a Klingon design without further explanation) or the film (where no mention whatsoever is made of Romulans).

It was really one tempest in a teacup after another, all based on fan preconceptions that weren't actually tied to the canon. (In fairness, the same could have been said of the battlecruiser in "Unexpected" [ENT], at the time. And possibly still, since DSC has yet to establish that this new D-7 design is of an entirely new lineage without precursors, rather than the revival of a past one.)

The S2 premiere made me so relieved these writers were soon to be gone. "New Eden" and "Point Of Light" are instead making me fearful Disco will be scrambled into incoherence again by that BtS turmoil, just as it was finally stabilizing.

Same here, although I remain optimistic. I didn't really find "Brother" all that impressive, but these last two I very much did. Here's hoping...

I think the "Mother" speech was a callback to Q. Elizabeth I's first speech to parliament, when factions in Parliament had been trying to force her into a marriage, and her situation was not at all stable or guaranteed as the only heir to a dynasty with many enemies in a turbulent time. Not entirely unlike L'Rell's situation, only Tudor people might have been a bit nastier than Klingons

"To conclude, I am already bound unto an husband, which is the kingdom of England, and that may suffice you. "

"And this,”quoth she, “Makes me wonder that your forget, yourselves, the pledge of this alliance which I have made with my kingdom.” And withal, stretching out her hand, she showed them the ring in express and solemn terms.

“And reproach me no more,” quoth she, “that I have no children: for every one of you, and as many as are English, are my children, and kinsfolk , of whom, so long as I am not deprived and God shall preserve me, you cannot charge me, without offense to be destitute .
Elizabeth Tudor, 1559

Yes, exactly, I picked up on that too.

Does anybody know if we'd been introduced to L'Rell's uncle before this episode?

Yes.

I wish Michael had just told Amanda what exactly she said to irreparably damage her and Spock's sibling bond because I feel like the continued secrecy in that regard is unnecessary, but it is what it is

She is too ashamed of whatever it is, and Amanda isn't exactly acting supportive.

I wonder if Michael might have told Spock that Sarek didn't love him and thought he was "so human" that he preferred an actual human child to him? She could have said she saw it in Sarek's mind when they melded. Or something like that.

We know from "Sarek" (TNG) that his greatest remaining regret at that point was that he was never able to convey to Spock and Amanda how much he loved them. Michael could have taken advantage of her intimate knowledge that Sarek wouldn't be able to refute her lie. And we know from TFF that a belief his father rejected him at birth was Spock's deepest "secret pain," one that he was unable to shake in spite of having come to terms with it since last seeing Sybok.

Does anybody know what Amanda said to Michael at the end of their final scene together?

Burnham says she "won't give up on" Spock, and "will find him," to which Amanda replies: "No. I will."

Those particular Klingons, the ones from the year 2255 and the leaders of the 24 houses, decided to shave their heads to go to war. However, that doesn't mean that every Klingon in history and in the future will shave their heads during wartime. 24th-century Klingons, for example, might not feel like following that custom.

Quite so. By 2369, the story of Kahless cutting off his hair to forge the first bat'leth is claimed only to be known to the high clerics of Boreth, per "Rightful Heir" (TNG). The following year, we find Kang lamenting in "Blood Oath" (DS9) that "the old Klingon ways are passing." And in "Judgment" (ENT), Kolos tells Archer from the standpoint of 2152 that, in terms of his lifetime, the warrior caste has only come to dominate Klingon society over the preceding twenty to fifty years. (But then, how long are Klingon years?) So while the custom may have ancient roots (no pun intended), it needn't be one that was ever universally practiced, nor even particularly widespread outside of the period leading up to DSC.

IIRC the bugs from Conspiracy were originally going to be the big bad before they switched to the the Borg.

Per the Okudas' revised Star Trek Chronology, page 290:

At the time the episode was written, this was apparently intended to lead to the introduction of the Borg in Star Trek: The Next Generation's second season. The Borg connection was dropped before "Q Who?" (TNG) was written, and the truth about the parasites remains a mystery.​

Speaking of Georgiou, I loved how she was making cute faces at L'Rell's son lmao.

Same here!

Not when it was stated in Season 1 that the condition of albinism is extremely rare (I've forgotten what the exact numbers are, but they were stated).

I only recall T'Kuvma telling Voq in "The Vulcan Hello" (DSC) that "some may see the color of your skin as nature's mistake." When was it addressed again before now? (I don't have the blu-rays, so it might have been in one of the deleted scenes?)

I loved how they all worked together. Pike first trying the official way, but putting his personal loyalty to Spock above orders and politics. I love this Pike.

Yes, and I hope that angle goes even further from here. Nice symmetry with "The Menagerie" (TOS).

But it was suuuuper weird to have three characters in a room that are all intimately familiar with Spock - while us, the viewer, are completely baffled who the hell THIS Spock is?

But that was exactly the point. They were asking the same question we were. They all want to know what the hell is up with Spock, just like we do.

It's basically a complete page-one re-write of Star Trek's famoust character. In a B-plot of a spin-off show.

It was a B-plot in terms of this episode, but it's a major arc in terms of the season (and an important one to the premise of the show overall).

S31 (which now is the regular Federation intelligence... yeah

No, it isn't. Georgiou's cover story is that she's a "Starfleet security consultant." (I hear echoes of Scotty mocking them as "private security" in Into Darkness.) And Tyler says at the end: "This isn't your everyday Federation espionage...what kind of organization could pull that off?"

They helped to prop up L'Rell, to keep the peace.

Which is similar to how they orchestrated Phlox's kidnapping so that he could help the Klingons treat the Augment virus in "Affliction"/"Divergence" (ENT), in order to "stabilize" the Empire.

ENT's Augments' Klingon retcon has now been retconned?

In what way, specifically? It hasn't been addressed directly, although there have been a few vague and oblique potential references...

They might be among those referred to by T'Kuvma in "Battle At The Binary Stars" (DSC) as "discarded," yet not accepted even by him, as Voq was, because they did not "remain Klingon" by his standards of "purity." It would match up with Laneth saying they would be "outcasts" with "no place in the Empire" in "Divergence" (ENT).

And I still think the virus might have provided a starting point for Voq's transformation, one of the things L'Rell told him that House Mókai would "expose" him to in "The Butcher's Knife Cares Not For The Lamb's Cry" (DSC), with the DNA resequencing and surgery then completing the physical process, and the transfer of Tyler's consciousness effected by the "mind-sifter or mind-ripper" Kor uses on Spock in "Errand Of Mercy" (TOS).

More definitely, but less prominently, it was said that there was graffiti on the wall of the tavern in "Will You Take My Hand?" (DSC) that translated to: "Your mother has a flat forehead!"

So what I think is, Burham killed Spock's pet sehlat.

In the original timeline of "Yesteryear" (TAS), I-Chaya lived. In the revised timeline after Spock went back to save his childhood self, I-Chaya died from a Le-matya attack on Vulcan's Forge.

I think he's right regarding the D7: That really was an f-ed up mess in season 1. And this episode was clearly a stealthy retcon.

I still think that was a "meta" joke to rile us...

I WENT ON THE STAGE ONE DAY, AND THEY WERE ALL READY AND WAITING FOR ME, BECAUSE THEY KNEW I WAS REALLY EXHAUSTED FROM SOME LONG RE-WRITE SESSIONS. AS SOON AS I WALKED UP TO THE SET, BILL AND LEONARD BLEW A SCENE, BUT THEY DID IT ON PURPOSE AND BEGAN ARGUING VERY VIOLENTLY. BILL WAS SHOUTING AT THE TOP OF HIS VOICE, "LEONARD! WHAT DO YOU MEAN SAYING THIS IS A D-7 KLINGON SHIP! IT'S A D-6!" LEONARD SHOUTED BACK, "NO, YOU IDIOT, THE D-6 HAS FOUR DOORS OVER HERE AND THE D-7 ONLY HAS TWO!" BILL IMMEDIATELY SHOUTED BACK, "NO, NO, NO—IT'S THE OTHER WAY AROUND. YOU'VE GOT IT ALL WRONG."

WHILE ALL OF THIS IS GOING ON, I'M STANDING THERE, BEGINNING TO GET FRUSTRATED, WATCHING THE MINUTES TICK BY AND MENTALLY COUNTING THE MONEY WE'RE LOSING IN EXPENSIVE CREW TIME, BECAUSE THE CAMERAS AREN'T ROLLING. AND AS THE ARGUMENT CONTINUED, I'M THINKING TO MYSELF, "WHAT ARE THEY TALKING ABOUT? THEY'VE GONE TOO FAR!" THEN I BEGAN THINKING THAT I SHOULD REMEMBER WHICH IS THE D-6 OR THE D-7. FINALLY I COULDN'T STAND IT ANY MORE, AND SO I WALKED IN BETWEEN THEM AND SAID, "COME ON, FELLOWS, IT REALLY DOESN'T MATTER. LET'S GET ON WITH THE SCENE." THEN THE WHOLE CREW BROKE UP LAUGHING. THIS WAS THEIR WAY OF SAYING TO ME, "HEY, TIME IS NOT THAT SERIOUS. RELAX A LITTLE."

-Gene Roddenberry in The Making Of Star Trek​

Oh and *everyone* not only knows Section 31 exists but the "Black badges" brigade is an active topic of conversation in the fleet?

Again, thus far it seems to me they might be believed at this time to be a Blackwater-esque security contractor. But we'll see how things develop.

When the fuck did everyone not only know they had an illegal paramilitary facist movement in Starfleet but just accept it?

In Deep Space Nine, where they were introduced. (Not literally everyone, of course—certainly not Our Man Bashir™, for instance—but Starfleet Command and the Federation Council did.)

"Inquisition" (DS9):

SISKO: There's no record of a Deputy Director Sloan anywhere in Starfleet. And as for Section 31, that's a little more complicated. Starfleet Command doesn't acknowledge its existence, but they don't deny it either. They simply said they'd look into it and get back to me.
BASHIR: When?
SISKO: They didn't say.
KIRA: That sounds like a cover up to me.
BASHIR: I can't believe the Federation condones this kind of activity.
ODO: Personally, I find it hard to believe they wouldn't. Every other great power has a unit like Section 31. The Romulans have the Tal Shiar. The Cardassians had the Obsidian Order.
BASHIR: But what does that say about us? When push comes to shove, are we willing to sacrifice our principles in order to survive?
SISKO: I wish I had an answer for you, Doctor.​

"The Dogs Of War" (DS9):

BASHIR: You were deliberately infected.
ODO: By whom?
BASHIR: Section 31. They used you as a carrier, hoping you would pass on the disease to the Founders. I'm sure you were never meant to develop symptoms, but...
ODO: I don't care whether they meant to kill me or not! The reality is, the Federation set out to destroy my people.
BASHIR: Section 31 aren't part of the Federation. They're a rogue organization that...
ODO: Don't split hairs with me, Doctor! They used me as an instrument to try to commit genocide. Now, we may be at war with the Founders, but that's no excuse.
BASHIR: I completely agree.
ODO: And what does Starfleet intend to do about it?
SISKO: Federation Council considered giving the Founders the cure, then they decided against it.
ODO: Then they're abetting genocide.
SISKO: I don't condone what Section 31 did, but the Founders started this war, not us. Giving them the cure would strengthen their hand. We can't do that, not when there are still millions of men and women out there putting their lives on the line every day.
ODO: Well, I can see there's no point protesting. The decision's been made.
SISKO: Odo, I wish I didn't have to say this, but I need to know you're not going to take matters into your own hands.
ODO: You have my word.
SISKO: That's all I needed to hear.
ODO: Interesting, isn't it? The Federation claims to abhor Section 31's tactics, but when they need the dirty work done, they look the other way. It's a tidy little arrangement, wouldn't you say?​

If anything, this makes Into Darkness look like Marcus didn't do anything particularly clever to get where he was or have the Kelvin Archives built.

If this all already happened in the Prime Universe, Into Darkness happening after the Federation equivalent of 9/11 would have him declaring Federation wide martial law, painting the fleet black, half a dozen task forces of ships with Vengeance class ships leading each.

The Klingon War never happened in the Kelvin Timeline. (At least not by the point of Into Darkness.)

If Spock has been having dreams of angels since he was a kid, I could maybe let it slide that he never mentioned it to the Enterprise crew (he didn't want them to think he was crazy), but it's practically unfathomable that no one brings it up in Sybok's quest to recruit the Enterprise to find God in Star Trek 5.

Whatever the significance of the "angels" turns out to be—and I bet they won't actually turn out be angels—it will likely be resolved by the end of this season. Why would Spock mention it all those years later?

The Section 31 ship was cool (variable geometry warp nacelles and a cloaking device... [insert umpteenth mockery of continuity here])

What exactly is worthy of mockery there? The idea that variable geometry warp nacelles were a new development introduced with the Intrepid class appears nowhere onscreen in VGR. (Even the associated production materials only said that particular configuration was new.) And this is well before the 2311 Treaty of Algeron that prohibited the use of cloaking technology aboard Starfleet vessels per "The Pegasus" (TNG) and "These Are The Voyages..." (ENT). Besides, Section 31 wouldn't care about that, anyway.

And please do not try to invoke "Balance Of Terror" (TOS), which has already been retconned since long before DSC. Just apply the same handwave the Okudas' Chronology gave waaaay back in 1991 for the "firing while cloaked" thing in TUC:

This development raises the question of why Klingon spacecraft are still generally unable to use their weapons while cloaked in Star Trek: The Next Generation-era episodes. The real reason, of course, is that Next Generation writers were not aware of this new "development" during the first four seasons of that show, before Star Trek VI was written. We imagine that cloaking technology, like present day "stealth" technology, is a constantly evolving race between the designers of cloaking devices and the folks who design sensors. Even though this "improved" ship could evade detection while firing, one might assume that improved sensor designs would later render this development ineffective, at least until the next advance in cloaking technology. In fact, Kirk's use of plasma sensors on photon torpedoes in Star Trek VI would seem to do just that.
​

We see this process unfolding in ENT ("Broken Bow"; "Shockwave"; "Minefield"), in DSC ("The Vulcan Hello"; "Into The Forest I Go"), in TOS ("Balance Of Terror"; "The Enterprise Incident"), into the movies (TSFS; TUC), and beyond ("Redemption II" [TNG]; "Prophecy" [VGR]).

That was a K't'inga model from DS9, not a D7.

Has "K'tinga" ever been said on-screen? Because "D7" was first used in Voyager, referring to the exact same CG model reused for Enterprise.

But that was merely a gaffe, too. Mike Sussman thought they'd be re-using Greg Jein's D-7 model from "Trials And Tribble-ations" (DS9), which as I know I've pointed out to you before is where the term was actually first used onscreen. Paris says "they were retired decades ago" in "Prophecy" (VGR). K't'ingas obviously weren't.

(Nevertheless, we now have a nice little tradition in Trek of each and every ship referred to as a D-7 being at least slightly different from any other! Shatner and Nimoy's gag lives on in perpetuity! LONG LIVE THE GAG!)

I, for one, prefer not to split hairs as to D7 vs. K'Tinga. They're basically the same thing, just like the refit 1701 Enterprise is the same ship and class as the original.

Except when it's instead Enterprise-class, as in TWOK!

-MMoM

 

[The Mighty Monkey of Mim]

The Tilly stuff was poor in the main. She wins the marathaon? She quits? She knows Stamets sees dead people in sporeland and tgen starts seeing dead people after being exposed to spores and yet cannot make the connection herself (2+2 for a math major?) AND does not even go to Stamets first? Weak.

I felt that too, at first. It did seem like a connection she should have made herself. But then I realized she obviously wasn't thinking clearly. She was emotionally distressed and in denial, fearing she was mentally ill and would be declared unfit for duty.

Not sure I buy how Section 31 materializes to save the Chancellor's bacon just in the nick of time, but whatever.

They were surely closely monitoring the situation on Qo'noS all along. They were doing so in "Affliction"/"Divergence" (ENT), Georgiou was recruited by them there, and she was disguised as a Klingon when she made her entrance here.

Also, who the hell is Khalessshhhhhh

A slightly less famous cousin of Khaless with a lisp?

Because they wouldn't suddenly get the name of the most famous Klingon ever wrong after saying it right for 32 years?

*smacks head* well first of all, it wasn't TNG, my bad, he was even in TOS.

And I can't remember a single Klingon ever calling him that, Khaless with a straight forward "ess" sound.

So, they just ended it with "ess" in all the live action stuff, including season 1 of this very show, and just now start using "esh"?

Latif has been pronouncing it with esh since season 1

I mean cast members in TNG and so on that never spoke the name with the "h" at the end?

That's because the supposed Klingon language used in TNG, DS9, VOY and ENT was an absolute mess that had little to nothing to do with the language that Okrand actually developed.

Disco returns to proper Klingon from the TOS films.

As for the "mispronounced" Klingon words, perhaps in this time era Klingons are all over the top sorts and Gowron was kinda hearkening back to them with his "Wooooorrrff, Son of Mooooogghh!" stuff?

Worf's pronunciations (and especially those of Klingon guest actors) of several frequently-heard Klingonese words and names varied quite noticeably at times. As I re-watched TNG recently, I particularly noted how Khitomer was in its earliest mentions pronounced "Khito-marr"; Mogh was sometimes "Mog" and at others "Mohg"; Molor vacillated between "Mo-lore" and "Mo-larr" and a number of other examples I can't recall specifically offhand. (Gagh was probably one too.) Heck, in TOS, Klingons sometimes call themselves "Klingans," "Klingins" or "Kling-gonns"!

But it's all good, because in "Broken Bow" (ENT), it's established that the language has no fewer than "eighty poly-guttural dialects constructed on an adaptive syntax" as of 2151. This comes up in "The Augments" (ENT) as well:

ARCHER: The universal translator, did you update the database?
HOSHI: It's been programmed with seven Klingon dialects.
ARCHER: Let's hope this guy speaks one of them.​

Problem solved!

(Now, what are the "correct" pronunciations of Sarek and Surak?)

DSC is following up on ideas from the '60s and '70s and developing its take on Star Trek based off that instead of what later came to be known in TNG. As someone who always preferred TOS over TNG, I appreciate them taking this approach.

I wouldn't say "instead of" exactly, because they're making reference to stuff from later shows as well, and I must say that I think you're too harsh on TNG in general...but very much yes to your thrust about them clearly taking inspiration from ideas that cropped up behind the scenes and elsewhere in that period. It's no coincidence that Discovery's design was based on Planet Of The Titans concept art (along with the asteroid base in the early teaser), that they invoked the Black Fleet from The Final Reflection, that they have the holo-communicators mentioned in The Making Of Star Trek and the "In Thy Image" treatment (and Roddenberry's novelization of TMP), that the Klingon redesign strongly resembles an early Robert Fletcher sketch for TMP's redesign (right down to the bald head, and now the mustache), and so on. That pleases me as well.

Captain Vela: “Chris, you and my bisabuela Nena are the only two people in this quadrant still communicating on screens” - every ship-to-ship visual communication on TOS and the movies (except a scene from star trek 6) communicated on screens. Every other series, except for a couple scenes in DS9 with the holo communicator, used screens.

okay, but how is this not a canon contradiction? Screen communication was commonplace from starbases, other ships, planets, shuttles, you name it.

That's the joke. Way to have a sense of humor!

Those things were rare. This is a case 2 different universes:
1) where only a handful of people in the quadrant communicate using screen-to-screen communication (DIS)
2) where only a handful of people in the quadrant communicate use holographic communication (ENT, TOS, TNG, DS9, VOY)

Appears to be different universes.

No, it just means that some people prefer the holograms and some people prefer the screens, and that the popularity of one over the other may be cyclical. Trends, man.

As others have said, the phrase "you must be one of the only two people in the quadrant who..." is clearly not a literal statement. (Besides, "quadrant" has always been used not only to mean an entire quarter of the galaxy, but smaller areas of space as well.)

It could theoretically be the same universe but void of continuity or without the law of non-contradiction in place. Maybe the whole thing is Benny Russell's story and Benny's writing a new story while forgetting or not caring about how it fits in with the rest of the stories. As they've said on star trek plenty of times: "If you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth"

There is no law of non-contradiction in fiction, dude. (And I say that as someone who very much enjoys creatively resolving contradictions in fiction.)

we also need that pad and stylus back - all that unbelievably small stuff archer used is so not canon

They still used styluses sometimes in DS9:

Spock has mommy issues. Dear lord. . .

Are we forgetting "The Naked Time" (TOS) here? It seems so...

SPOCK: [crying] My mother...I could never tell her I loved her...an Earth woman, living on a planet where love, emotion, is bad taste...I respected my father, our customs. I was ashamed of my Earth blood...Jim, when I feel friendship for you, I'm ashamed...I've spent a whole lifetime learning to hide my feelings.​

My guess is, Durass family is not yet formed.

Duras, son of Toral—another example of Klingon names sometimes recurring generationally within a house, as with Colonel Worf in TUC, who was supposed to be Mogh's father (and in all likelihood Kor as well, since it's doubtful the son of Rynar we know is personally the source of Kol-Sha's house name)—tangled with Archer in "Judgment" (ENT) and "The Expanse" (ENT), where he met his demise. His ilk are probably around, although they might not be a major house at this time.

writers still don't fucking get S31 at all. (Jesus the Klingons know about it now? Not even most at the top of the federation know about it ffs).

There were Klingons who knew about it in "Affliction"/"Divergence" (ENT). Admiral Krell and Harris were in collusion. And again, in DS9 there clearly were people at the highest levels who did know about it, and were complicit with its actions. I just do not get how some people think it was all Sloan's fantasy or something. They're in denial.

No DS9 worked against it, even Sisko showed remorse in the pale moonlight, here we are supposed to give a hell ya to the crazy dictator, I’ll pass

I didn't feel that we are supposed to root for them here, either. Just because they saved L'Rell, Tyler, and the baby, for their own reasons...that doesn't make them heroes. If you think it does, then you're thinking just like they do...

SLOAN: How many lives do you suppose you've saved in your medical career?
BASHIR: What has that got to do with anything?
SLOAN: Hundreds? Thousands? Do you suppose that those people give a damn that you lied to get into Starfleet Medical? I doubt it. We deal with threats to the Federation that jeopardize its very survival. If you knew how many lives we've saved, I think you'd agree that the ends do justify the means.​

So someone on reddit pointed this out

https://www.reddit.com/r/StarTrekDi...cellormother_lrells_hair_pieces_based_off_of/

L'rell's head gear here looks very similar to a concept for Into Darkness

Also that makeup design has sensor pits in the ridges like some of the ridge designs in DSC

Reminds me of how Dennas' headress in S1 was reminiscent of those worn by Valkris in STIII and Sirella in "You Are Cordially Invited" (DS9):

-MMoM

 

[F. King Daniel]

But that was merely a gaffe, too.

If it makes it to the screen, it's canon. Klingon Warbirds, first mentioned in "Broken Bow" finally appear in ST'09 as more heavily armoured (and perhaps upscaled) D7/K'tingas.

Since K'tinga has never made it to air, all those D7 and K'tinga variants (and we are talking far less than the 25% change Disco requires) are the same.

And please do not try to invoke "Balance Of Terror" (TOS), which has already been retconned since long before DSC.

How does another show ignoring continuity make this show ignoring it, which is far more directly tied to the original, okay?

 

[Mirror Tuvix]

It does appear that some people are still having trouble mentally dealing with a Star Trek where everything presented on the screen isn't all tied up in a neat bow after every hour, especially where that is combined with character driven story telling. And this has lead them to think that Star Trek isn't producing enough comedy material of late? Weird.

Nah, that reviewer Franich is fairly young and reviews serial television all the time. I think the gripe is that Discovery so far has been advancing the Spock rock very slowly, with somewhat repetitive scenes, and it's hard to care much about Tilly's spore ghost, or TyVoq's angst, when we want to advance the Red Things plot, especially after we're told about Spock's (doubtful) murder rampage. It seems like they don't have quite enough story for their main arc so they're wheel-spinning. Of course, this would be less of an issue if the supporting arcs were more compelling.

But I never thought TyVoq cohered into a plausible character, from the neck-snappening onward. Maybe there are some big TyVoq fans here, I dunno.

 

[Mirror Tuvix]

The creative team was doing what they planned on doing all along with regard to filtering in tonal changes, and it had nothing to do with reading your bitching and moaning online.

Alex Kurtzman said he pays attention to feedback if he notices the same points being made over and over. Hollywood at the level of an Abrams or Kurtzman most assuredly pays attention to audience reaction, it is called show business, they are not James Joyce.

So when Pike tells Burnham "we'll try to have some fun along the way" in an episode filled with attempts at Joss Whedon quips, it's hard not to see it as some kind of response to many saying the show was too dark. (I wasn't one of those people, I had no strong tonal or canonical expectations for the show.)

But Ep 3 was a reminder that they aren't going to do Abrams/Whedon (Ep 1) or Throwback Away Mission to Naff Settlement (Ep 2) every time. They will also mix in bodily combustion and entrails as they see fit. So there will be something for everyone.

Of course, the creative team you mention gets ousted after episode 5 reportedly, so talk of master plans might be a bit much.

 

[Mirror Tuvix]

You know Burnham isn't the first star trek character to excel in multiple fields or be good at everything right? Let's use Picard for example.

Yeahbut Picard was bald so he's more relatable.

 

[DigificWriter]

Alex Kurtzman said he pays attention to feedback if he notices the same points being made over and over.

That may very well be the case, but, as has already been stated, Aaron Harberts and Gretchen J. Berg publicly said long before the premiere of Season 1 that the series would be undergoing a change in tone that was less "dark" and more in line with previous Trek series.

 

[Mirror Tuvix]

That may very well be the case, but, as has already been stated, Aaron Harberts and Gretchen J. Berg publicly said long before the premiere of Season 1 that the series would be undergoing a change in tone that was less "dark" and more in line with previous Trek series.

Yes, prior to launch, Disco folk said the series starts with war and is supposed to build toward the more familiar optimistic Star Trek, but how do we know they didn't speed up their timetable in response to all the griping?

Isn't the luxurious Klingon hair proof that they are at least somewhat gripe-sensitive?

 

[USS Fardell]

Point of Light
The third episode of season 2. This is an interesting episode, but in a different way than the previous episode. Three different plot lines. What is happening to Spock, what is going on on Qo'noS (and what Section 31 may have to do with it), and what is happening to Tilly (continuing on from the previous episode.) However, these plot threads don't really link together. This is more of a serial than an episode. The Tilly plot just ends, but more on that below. Certainly, it will pay off in some manner.
Burnham, Amanda, Spock. A lot to unpack. Spock a psychopath? Or is someone framing him? Still, not sure what to make of this storyline. Doesn't jive with the original series much, but I'm sure there is a journey involved in which Spock will put his history with the Red Angel behind him. That Amanda would search for Spock herself after Burnham tells her that she pushed Spock away, is understandable. It is also understandable that Sarek had messed things up in trying to raise Spock and Burnham.
And trying to make up for what happened with Sybok. His logic is uncertain when it comes to his family indeed. I certainly would like to know where this is leading. Then there are the events on Qo'noS. L'Rell having to deal with a coup attempt by one of the other Great Houses is handled very well. (The Battle choreography holds up too.) However, I'm not sure having Section 31 intervene was a good idea. Other agents would definitely have Mirror Georgiou on a tight leash. That ship looks cool though.
(Imagining such a ship beaming Sloane aboard DS9 is an intriguing idea, but wouldn't they then rescue him from Bashir and O'Brien?) As stated above, the Tilly plot just ends. No doubt it continues in the next episode, but it is left unresolved here, whereas the other two plot lines were. The rest of the storyline where Tilly struggles to hold it together despite the presence of the entity was done well though. Overall well presented episode. 7.8/10.

 

[Agony_Boothb]

Yeahbut Picard was bald so he's more relatable.

Yeah because a black woman sure isn't relateable at all....

 

[Alan Roi]

Nah, that reviewer Franich is fairly young and reviews serial television all the time. I think the gripe is that Discovery so far has been advancing the Spock rock very slowly, with somewhat repetitive scenes, and it's hard to care much about Tilly's spore ghost, or TyVoq's angst, when we want to advance the Red Things plot, especially after we're told about Spock's (doubtful) murder rampage. It seems like they don't have quite enough story for their main arc so they're wheel-spinning. Of course, this would be less of an issue if the supporting arcs were more compelling.

But I never thought TyVoq cohered into a plausible character, from the neck-snappening onward. Maybe there are some big TyVoq fans here, I dunno.

Maybe that's because you agree with him that you want this over so they can get to the next thing, which some presume will be a story for them. The season's 14 episodes long and its one story, so no, the next things not coming next week. Its like I'm hearing 3 eps into in the first season of Game of Thrones, "When the hell is Sean Bean going to die?" and "So winter is coming, eh? Well its been 3 eps, why isn't it here yet?".

 

[DigificWriter]

Yes, prior to launch, Disco folk said the series starts with war and is supposed to build toward the more familiar optimistic Star Trek, but how do we know they didn't speed up their timetable in response to all the griping?

Because of how television writing works.

Isn't the luxurious Klingon hair proof that they are at least somewhat gripe-sensitive?

No. As I've already previously stated, Neville Page and Glenn Hetrick created concept art of the redesigned Klingons with hair long before the premiere of the first season, proving that it was an avenue they had in mind for a long while even though Bryan Fuller ultimately wanted the Klingons to be hairless.

 

[Ensign Mas]

Really? I thought it was funny and awkwardly opposite of the way we communicate today. Nobody uses the phone, but we like to text. For them nobody uses a screen, they prefer the more intimate holoprojection. And if you really hate it because 50 or 30 years ago the show could only muster screen communication, which for the time was beyond our capabilities. Now we can actually come close to holo projection. Of course a fantasy future will have tech that is better than we do now. I don't understand why people like you watch if you cant get past it not being like ancient Trek. Do you use 1 kindle per book, just to align with 90s Trek tech?

"Ancient Trek"? You don't have to go that far... Every Star Trek show/movie prior to ST including those of the soft reboot, used screens to communicate. If the show can't cater to millennials without introducing "cuul effects" (which it doesn't anyway) and anachronisms in a setting that has already been established, then it's better to acknowledge that it's a reboot. It's possible to update the visual look without introducing these anachronisms. Heck, ST: D also continues with the "bridge screen window" nonsense introduced in the soft reboot. It would've been far much better to have put the show after Voyager in the timeline to begin with.

 

[Claudia]

This was by far the worst episode of season 2 so far - Klingon politics (at least they mostly skipped the subtitles), Tilly and her spore-parasite/hallucination, a Spock with apparent hallucinations since childhood (except they're not - and BTW, does everyone have to suffer from hallucinations at least once in this show?), Burnham trying to protect Spock by pushing him away and hurting him in the process (I'd even buy into that if SMG managed to put some emotion into her act, but the way this scene, and others before it, goes down she just relates facts... there's no heart in her delivery, never has been so far, I'm afraid), Amanda having been a stone-cold bitch to her son and regretting it (but at least trying to go on the warpath for her son), far too little of Pike (but what was there was the episode's saving grace)... By the time L'Rell went on about never having another child and getting the others to call her mother I was laughing so hard and hollering "mother of dragons" at my TV...

I'm just waiting for Spock to turn up on that S31 ship (because they framed him for those 3 murders and need him for something or other) because in some way the plotthreads have to come together.

Still don't see the reason, though, of fleshing out a well-known character's background, turning him halfway into a lunatic with mommy and daddy issues and lots of childhood trauma, having never mentionned (foster)relatives pop up from under the woodwork, instead of trying to tell their own original characters' story. It's different with a reboot, there you can reimagine known characters all you want, but Discovery isn't a reboot.

 

[Mirror Tuvix]

Yeah because a black woman sure isn't relateable at all....

My emoji was meant to indicate joking. About baldness.