Spoilers Star Trek: Discovery 1x07 - "Magic to Make the Sanest Man Go Mad"
- Thread starter Commander Richard
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I was getting a Seven/Janeway vibe from her and Georgiou back in the premiere, as well.
Ah, so by this, Klach D'kel Brakt isn't really that "Briar Patch" after all...this having been the subject of some ambiguity and debate back at the airing of "The Augments" (ENT), IIRC. Not that I expect this to settle that matter, of course. Part of me really wishes they'd "customized" the map a bit more...but it's only set dressing after all. Thankfully, it was a stretchable "century ago" from Insurrection (2375) that the Son'a left the Ba'ku and not something more specific like 98 or 107! Still, there are probably other anachronisms I'm not noticing without having my copy of Star Charts out to compare side by side. My eyes are starting to hurt from squinting at this thing.I like maps
Yeah, funny that...
Part of me really doesn't want to speculate or debate on it too much, rather than just watching and seeing how it plays out, but I guess with this prompting I will anyway...
If true, they obviously wouldn't show anything that could directly and definitively confirm or refute it until the big reveal. But they would include multiple things that seem in the moment to refute it, and can only in hindsight be reinterpreted in context of the revelation. They'd do their best give even those who think they have it all figured out cause to question their conclusions and doubt their suspicions. They'd want us to believe it's impossible so we'll be surprised. (But on the other hand, they'll want what's been seen already to still be dramatically engaging once we know. They'll want that re-watch value. So they'll also likely include some things that in retrospect will stand out like flashing red lights that everyone "obviously" "should" have seen coming.)
Tests? Just about any test can be beaten with enough ingenuity and cunning. "Unbeatable" ones are only there to provide a false sense of security. Think about the Changeling impersonators on DS9, and how tests had been specifically devised and diligently employed to detect them, but only in vain, and how they never did anything to draw suspicion from the other characters or the audience beforehand. (Of course, I don't remember offhand how much of that storyline, if any, was planned out in advance, and how far.)
Even better, think of Ward in season one of Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D.—they seem to me to be following generally the same path thus far. Of course, it could also be the case that it's misdirection, like how they kept dropping obvious little hints early on implying that Coulson might be a life model duplicate, in contrast to what was ultimately revealed regarding him. It's to throw people who "know the game" off the scent. So that's possible as well, surely.
It's interesting to me that some viewers here seem to find the "clues" that Tyler might be Voq very loud, while others seem to find them very subtle to nonexistent. Generally, I'd say the louder and more obvious they are, the more likely they are to be part of a fakeout. The more subtle and innocuous and "plausibly deniable" they seem, while still managing to elicit a tickle from our threat ganglia, the more likely they are to be on point. If they're nonexistent, then they're nonexistent, of course, but I don't think that's the case here. I don't think it's simply mass hysteria and projection behind the "theory." Something is happening here, Mr. Jones, but we don't know what it is...yet.
To me, thus far the hints that he is a Klingon spy of one sort or another seem louder than the clues he is not...but I think they only seem that way to me because I read the "theory" (and consequently became aware of certain publicity shenanigans in play that I won't spoil here, and which I actually would not recommend anyone look into further if they just want to watch things play out) before Tyler "debuted" on the show. Doing my best to imagine if I knew none of that, I think the possibility would likely still occur to me given extensive familiarity with Trek tropes and so on, but I don't think as many things would stand out nearly as much. And to a viewer who knows nothing about the Klingon forehead "issue" (which even just in itself is a pretty fannish thing to be familiar with) or its history it would probably not even register. Stuff like "you fight like a Klingon" and "you're a very tall man" is pretty innocuous and plausibly deniable in context...but if he turned out to be a Klingon later, don't tell me you wouldn't look back and recognize it as deliberate foreshadowing. And if the opposite proved true? Given how much currency the theory had gained already by this point and how the real-world, out-of-universe, behind-the-scenes decisions made did more to fuel than quash it, you might look back and see it as deliberate misdirection.
We do not actually know how extensively Arne Darvin was "altered." The signs that were specifically cited as betraying him to McCoy's instruments in that particular moment were his heartbeat being "all wrong" and something ultimately unspecified about his body temperature. If we can plausibly believe that tribbles are able to sense either at proximity, then for all we know these are the only two signs that could have given him away! And a wilder thought still, what if it were only the presence of the tribbles in the first place that triggered these tells, say due to some negative sympathetic response, akin to the reverse of how humans feel all calm and warm and fuzzy around them? Darvin would have gotten away with it, if not for those meddling tribbles, even as his boss suspected Klingon spies might be afoot all along!
It is implied in the dialogue of "Trials and Tribble-ations" (DS9), and made explicit in the scripted stage directions, that Darvin's alteration was surgical, but whether it was only skin deep we are not told. Neither are we told how he came to be "posing as" the Assistant to the Federation Undersecretary in charge of Agricultural Affairs in the quadrant, nor how long he had done so, nor in what sense he was doing so. Was there ever a real Arne Darvin whose place he took, or not? Was he already in said job, and that's why the Klingons chose him for replacement, or did the Klingon have to get it himself? Does the job come with any requirements for regular medical examinations, or at least an initial one to qualify? Does "Darvin" ever use transporters, and would they not recognize his pattern as Klingon, and would no one ever notice? Information unavailable. What we are told is that he was able to maintain the guise of a human merchant for the next hundred years after he was disowned by the Klingons...but not how.
We also do not know if Voq was physiologically "normal" for a Klingon apart from his skin complexion. For all we know, there could have been something more to his condition making it possible to do things for him that wouldn't necessarily work on others. For all we know, his albinism was the result of his ancestor(s) being genetically altered in another offshoot of the program that yielded the Klingon Augments of ENT, or interbreeding with them, or an attempt to correct their "disfigurement," or whatever. I'm not saying I expect (or want) that to be the case, I'm just trying not to close off possibilities given what we (don't) know. What we do know is that a century before DSC, the Klingons already had the technical capacity for advanced genetic engineering and an aggressive willingness to use it experimentally on themselves. God only knows what they've got now. Something just as "game changing" as our heroes' spore drive, but far more dastardly?
The virus from "Affliction"/"Divergence" (ENT) was created accidentally in the course of the Klingons seeking deliberately to "re-sequence" and combine their DNA with that of augmented humans. It began mutating of its own accord from there, and got out of control, and by the time that two-parter ended we were already dealing with multiple strains of it with varying levels of transformative effect and progression. What is to say these efforts were not pursued in any way beyond this by the Klingons? What is to say it was the first or the last attempt? That Antaak and Phlox's treatment couldn't somehow be further weaponized, or that the virus couldn't someow mutate again? What is to say that other mutagenic viruses with similar-but-differing effects don't exist, or haven't, or won't, or couldn't?
(Actually, I can think of another one right off the top of my head that was featured in "Extinction" during the preceding season of ENT, which "was apparently designed to re-write the DNA of its host, to transform any humanoid it infected into another species" and we saw it fully do that, internal organs and all. There was another in "Favorite Son" [VGR]. These had nothing to do with the Klingons, of course, but the examples reiterate and emphasize that these sort of things are a well-established element of the ST universe. But then, so is disguising yourself with merely cosmetic surgery and managing to pass despite, at least for a while!)
The exact wording used by L'Rell (by which I really mean the writers) in "The Butcher's Knife Cares Not For The Lamb's Cry" (DSC) looms large among those ambiguous-but-potentially-significant bits...
L'RELL: I've stolen a raider and will take you to the home of the Mókai, I will leave you with the matriarchs, who will expose you to things you never knew possible. But it comes at a cost.
VOQ: What must I sacrifice?
L'RELL: Everything.
Not "show you things" or "teach you things" or "give you things" but "expose you to things." It's a perfectly fine way of saying the same, but it has that other familiar meaning too. "Things you never knew possible" suggests something of which not only Voq, but others (including the DSC crew, and at least some of the audience) might well be ignorant, and which will initially seem quite impossible, despite not actually being so in the least. Voq must "sacrifice everything," which could mean not only his appearance but his very identity. Must the "Remain Klingon"-er mix with the filth like the Feds? To do so must he sacrifice both his Klingon body and his Klingon mind? More on that momentarily...
Next episode, "Choose Your Pain" (DSC):
LORCA: Your English, it's excellent.
L'RELL: I'm descended from spies. Languages are useful, particularly when it comes to understanding those who seek to destroy the Klingon Empire.
L'Rell suggests Mókai—where was she sending Voq, again?—may be a house of spies. Spies like Arne Darvin was? She suggests they may have helped her with her English. She has a noticeable accent, sure. But could she, in true spy fashion, be playing that up for Lorca's benefit, so that Tyler seems "impossibly" good by comparison? Could she and Tyler have similarly been playing up their fight in the corridor, never knowing at what moment Lorca would return to its midst and really wanting to sell it? Could the whole affair have been an elaborate ruse staged for the specific purpose of allowing Voq to infiltrate Discovery as "Tyler"? I'd say the answer to all of those questions is yes, irrespective of whether the story ends up going in that direction or a completely different one. But as others have said, it's also possible that "learning" English and "playing" the part of a human might be less necessary for Tyler than we'd think...
"Errand Of Mercy" (TOS):
KLINGON: He is what he claims to be, Commander, a Vulcanian merchant named Spock. His main concern seems to be how he will carry out his business under our occupation.
KOR: Nothing else?
KLINGON: The usual, a certain amount of apprehension regarding us. The mind is remarkably disciplined.
KOR: You are sure?
KLINGON: I used Force Four, which is sufficient to break down any pretense.
KOR: Very well, Lieutenant. Would you like to try our little truth finder?
KIRK: I don't understand.
KOR: It's a mind-sifter, or mind-ripper, depending on how much force is used. We can record every thought, every bit of knowledge in a man's mind. Of course, when that much force is used, the mind is emptied. Permanently, I'm afraid. What's left is more vegetable than human.
KIRK: And you're proud of it.
KOR: It is a tool, a weapon. Somewhat drastic, but very efficient.
KIRK: Are you sure you're all right?
SPOCK: Perfectly, Baroner. But it was an interesting experience.
[...]
KIRK: That mind-sifter can't be all the terror they think it is.
SPOCK: It should not be underestimated, Captain. It reaches directly into the mind. We Vulcans have certain mental...certain disciplines which enable me to maintain a shield. Without those disciplines, there would be no protection.
[...]
KOR: You'll have a drink with me, Captain?
KIRK: No, thank you.
KOR: I assure you, it isn't drugged. With our mind scanner, we have no need for such crude methods.
KIRK: What do you want from me?
KOR: Oh, a very great deal. But first, I want to talk. Just talk.
KIRK: Do you think I'm going to sit here and "just talk" with the enemy?
KOR: You'll talk, either here, now, voluntarily, or [...] I can get what I want through our mind-scanner, but there would be very little of your mind left, Captain. I have no desire to see you become a vegetable. This friend of yours, the Vulcan. He seems to have the ability to block our scanner. I think perhaps I will find out why. I will have him dissected. Your friend killed, you a mental vegetable...
So let's say there was a real Ash Tyler taken prisoner by the Klingons, and they "emptied" his mind. Kor says it can't be put back in, but doesn't say anything that would preclude it being put—in whole, or in part, after "sifting"—into someone else. Nor this someone else's "ripped" mind—in whole, or in part, after "sifting"—being substituted for the original in the newly emptied "vegetable" shell. Maybe when L'Rell said "everything" she really meant it. Maybe, if they needed to, they could even go so far as to literally hand over Voq's severed head on a platter as the ultimate "counter-evidence" against him being Tyler? (Oh, and to your point about "The Passenger": Bashir said he wouldn't know what to look for as evidence in the brain scans without first knowing what specific transfer method was used.)
Don't get me wrong; in no way do I mean to suggest that I am totally convinced of all the details above. A lot of it is just speculative musing on the questions posed, bringing in things from Trek's past that seem like they could be relevant, toying around with the ambiguities to see what might be made of them. Yet, it seems many others here have been thinking along similar lines, so I don't think I'm just being delusional. Still, it may play out as a very different story to any of what's been suggested, and if so I will likely be more pleased than chagrined, because that'll mean it's something I didn't see coming. Unless of course it's stupid(er than the above, if that happens to be anyone's reaction to my little thought exercise).
The actress is just about the same age that the one who played the Stella android in TOS would have been 12 years before that. On the other hand, Wilson is already almost two decades older than Carmel was when he first played Mudd. But age of actor ≠ age of character, naturally.
tee-ohh-ess
tee-enn-gee
dee-ess-nine
vee-gee-arr
eee-enn-tee
dee-ess-see
All roll off my tongue just fine. Maybe it's because I also used to watch SeaQuest DSV (that's "dee-ess-vee")...
It's more similar to the Y-class freighter from "Fortunate Son" (ENT), as @Mark_Nguyen pointed out in another thread. But then, that was similar to the J-class freighter from "Horizon" (ENT)...which is apparently different from the "small Class J cargo ship" in "Mudd's Women" (TOS)...which rightfully should also be different from the "old Class J starship" on which Pike was disabled in "The Menagerie" (TOS). And Mudd's ship was not originally the same design as the Aurora from "The Way To Eden" (TOS). And the Aurora was not originally a Class-J or J-class anything...but it was replaced in TOS-R with a modification of the design newly created for the remastered "Mudd's Women"...whew!Could Barron Grimes ship be the DISCO version of the J Class?
J Class
J Class Remastered
Grimes ship
Oh, and lastly, though thankfully it subsided...yet another round of "is TAS canon" debate to start this thread off? May the Great Bird of the Galaxy poop in all your space helmets! (Just kidding, be well, all! Happy Halloween!)
-MMoM
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They’re using the 2002 Star Charts book as reference, so it predates the episode that establishes that they are one in the same.
I consider it an oversight by the production team.
We finally have Discovery’s quote. From Trek core
The flickering lights marked the start of the 30 minute time loop.
Are we really still complaining about the choice of music?
They mentioned on After Trek they picked Staying Alive because that was what the crew were trying to do.
Good to know.
But the episode establishes nothing. It merely tells us that Arik Soong liked to call Klach D'Kel Brakt "Briar Patch". But what Arik Soong likes has nothing to do with how the UFP or the Klingon Empire name the highlights on their maps. And Arik Soong's Klach D'Kel Brakt looked nothing like the ST:INS Briar Patch.
But no launch/commissioning stardate on that plaque, alas.
Stylistically, it's much the same as Shenzhou, combining Franklin elements with a list of names. When do they change the style in-universe?
Timo Saloniemi
I posted about this the other day, but I was on my phone, so I couldn't talk about it in detail: Does anyone get the idea that this episode was one of the two added to the show after the intial order of 13 episodes?
My reasoning is basically as follows. They would not add two episodes on to the end of the season, because that would result in a very anticlimactic ending. So they would have to find somewhere to sandwich two episodes in the middle of the already plotted arc. This episode does call back to earlier continuity, but judging by the trailer for next week, it's sort of awkwardly jammed in the middle of the "Cornwell mini-arc." It also wrapped up things very well, to the point of almost being a self-contained episode. The only possible exception is the burgeoning relationship between Burnham and Ash Tyler, but since they don't actually remember their conversation in the iteration where they kissed, and Burnham made it clear she wanted to "go slow" they could go right back to acting professional for several episodes.
I guess we'll see in the longer run if anything which took place in this episode is referenced anywhere else. If it happens in a single episode, it could always be chalked up to that episode being a mid-arc insertion as well. But if there are multiple references we could conclude that this may indeed have been a story inserted into the arc late in production.
My reasoning is basically as follows. They would not add two episodes on to the end of the season, because that would result in a very anticlimactic ending. So they would have to find somewhere to sandwich two episodes in the middle of the already plotted arc. This episode does call back to earlier continuity, but judging by the trailer for next week, it's sort of awkwardly jammed in the middle of the "Cornwell mini-arc." It also wrapped up things very well, to the point of almost being a self-contained episode. The only possible exception is the burgeoning relationship between Burnham and Ash Tyler, but since they don't actually remember their conversation in the iteration where they kissed, and Burnham made it clear she wanted to "go slow" they could go right back to acting professional for several episodes.
I guess we'll see in the longer run if anything which took place in this episode is referenced anywhere else. If it happens in a single episode, it could always be chalked up to that episode being a mid-arc insertion as well. But if there are multiple references we could conclude that this may indeed have been a story inserted into the arc late in production.
I hope not, because that would mean that the following episodes might go back to being boring and darker.
I didn't get the Raymond thing at all and I watched all of that sitcom.
Ash was reminding me of someone throughout his appearances, his voice in particular...for me it clicked and I think he sounds like Ray, he gets more to say in this episode...and the shrugs and stuff.
I believe the actor is a Brit no? So I assumed he was going for the New Yoik Ray voice...just me maybe.
I'm not sure that I agree with the reasoning, even though this could be a late addition. If there is any definitive proof, it would be in Stamets' personality. His character seems to have reached a point of frenetic activity which I would think should carry over to the next episoe.
No.
DSC went into production in January, and we learned about the season order being extended by two in May, by which point the series would have been well into shooting the second half of its initial order, if not close to finishing the entire season.
We can judge more when we see further episodes, but the fact that it seems to be significant to Burnham's character development and the development of a relationship with Tyler, and it resolves the Mudd plotline left dangling two episodes ago, make me feel like it wasn't something that was just sqeeezed in.
The two episodes that would have been added would be Episodes 14 and 15, and may have resulted in a rewriting of Episode 13 depending on how that episode ended, as all 13 originally ordered scripts for the season would have been completed long before the series finally went into production.
^ You know this how?
Per Memory Alpha, the Production numbers for DSC's episodes are directly sequential and exactly match the viewing/release order, which would not be the case if what you're claiming were true.
Per Memory Alpha, the Production numbers for DSC's episodes are directly sequential and exactly match the viewing/release order, which would not be the case if what you're claiming were true.
Mudd pretty much realized it in the loop where he found out that Stamets was the 'missing piece' that made the Spore Drive work. After that I believe he was captured in the next loop; and only reset the loop after Burnham revealed how 'valuable' she would be to the Klingons (and how much more they'd pay if she were part of the deal); and killed herself. So assuming there weren't other loops in between after that (for whatever reason) Mudd 'got wise' one loop prior to the final situation where he didn't reset and was turned over to Stella and her father.