Star Trek Continues: Episode 3...
- Thread starter Warped9
- Start date
The “mirror Kirk” we see in the original episode is furious and doesn’t immediately believe he’s in an alternate universe. He feels it is an elaborate ploy to usurp his authority. Everything is off balance and he's probably disoriented. In a regular mutiny situation, which probably happens more often than in the prime universe, that Kirk would know how to handle it. Also, it was an easy shorthand to show the differences between the two crews. A few minutes to satisfy curiosity before getting back to our people. So, I never thought “that” Kirk was the normal mirror Kirk, but this seems to be what Vic based his portrayal on. Spock also had this to say in the original episode:
SPOCK: I do not threaten, Captain. I merely state facts. I have found you to be an excellent officer. Our missions together have been both successful and profitable. However, I shall not permit your aberrations to jeopardize my position.
You can argue that Spock may be kissing Kirk’s ass, but why? No, you don’t get to command a starship, even an “evil” one, by being an idiot. Mirror Kirk had to be shrewd, calculating, but still a strong leader who knows how to bring his people rewards enough to stay in line. Sure, there are the threats of pain and punishment, and he was obviously a sadistic bastard ("mercy to the Halkans...to me...") but I find it hard to believe a blustering “Enemy Within” madman, a total schmuck, would successfully command the ship. “Am I not merciful?” Ugh. No, this is where I was let down. It was an opportunity to really do something interesting with the character, flesh out the “villain” and make him three dimensional. Instead, they went the usual Space Pirate route. The original episode didn’t have that time to go deeper into the counterparts, but here they did. Warped9 is right: filling it out to standard episode length would have helped – if they used the time for development and not more running around, yelling or threats.
Meh, sorry, I don't rate this nearly as highly as most of you.
It's true mirror Kirk is more of a Captain Bligh caricature, but the upside is that he was so raged and over-the-top that it led into a good old-fashioned fist-fight, which is the epitome of TOS. Also, by sending him off in the shuttlecraft, it leaves the door open to allow him to seek his revenge in a Khan sort of way. I really would not be surprised if they revisited the mirror universe at least one more time.
It also might have helped to show the Mirror universe upper-leadership. If it were clear that the higher-ups valued Kirk-style antics, it would make more sense that someone like him would be a captain.
It also might have helped to show the Mirror universe upper-leadership. If it were clear that the higher-ups valued Kirk-style antics, it would make more sense that someone like him would be a captain.
The stage was set to show that things were not what they were when Mirror Kirk returned. He was obviously rattled and couldn't seem to regain his balance again. The "usual way of doing things" simply didn't work against Spock because Spock knew him too well and was obviously always at least one step ahead of him.
We can rationalize and explain everything in the episode, but it would simply have been more effective to have properly fleshed things out onscreen. It would have meant thorughly dissecting the original "Mirror, Mirror" and then building a story from there.
Everything also happened a bit too fast. I think it would have been more interesting to see Spock navigate his way with more difficulty just as Prime Kirk had to better illustrate how difficult it could be trying to be a "civilized" individual in such a savage and cutthroat environment. Maybe toss in an assissination attempt on Spock.
That missing ten minutes of running time could have been used to good effect.
I still quite enjoyed the episode because of the overall execution, but it could have been even better with a little more thought.
We can rationalize and explain everything in the episode, but it would simply have been more effective to have properly fleshed things out onscreen. It would have meant thorughly dissecting the original "Mirror, Mirror" and then building a story from there.
Everything also happened a bit too fast. I think it would have been more interesting to see Spock navigate his way with more difficulty just as Prime Kirk had to better illustrate how difficult it could be trying to be a "civilized" individual in such a savage and cutthroat environment. Maybe toss in an assissination attempt on Spock.
That missing ten minutes of running time could have been used to good effect.
I still quite enjoyed the episode because of the overall execution, but it could have been even better with a little more thought.
The script was the same length as our previous 2 episodes. The issue ended up being that the fast-paced nature of the episode made it came in short. In hindsight is seems that it would have been a good idea to perhaps film some additional scenes but the truth is with the limited amount of time we had; that's not really an option (to film scenes just to have them just in case). It would have been nice to KNOW we would have an extra 10 mins; of course we would have used it to our advantage. The bottom line is that we thought we had enough material and it wasn't until it was edited that we knew it was going to be short.
Well you could film some new scenes and issue a new cut, but really I enjoyed the episode as-is and any perceived shortcomings and flaws are just grist for the discussion mill.
Hey everyone,
First of all, thank you SO MUCH for all your interest in the episode. I don't want to get into a back-and-forth, but I did want to make a comment here to clarify a couple things.
I want to assure you guys that the decisions made in this episode's script were strictly artistic ones. Obviously, people are free to disagree with our artistic choices, and I encourage that. But I also encourage you not to assume that, because the episode didn't do things perhaps the way you may have, that that means not enough thought went into the script.
In truth, the development period for this script was VERY long. It went through dozens of iterations between myself, Vic, and Marc Cushman our script consultant. Believe me, we fully considered and explored all the various possibilities, additions, changes, etc. that you guys are suggesting. We ultimately went with the script in its present form, again, as an artistic choice, not due to thoughtlessness.
For example, as feek61 points out above, we were not particularly concerned about running time. This, in fact, is one of the first directives Vic gave me when I joined the project. STC isn't beholden to network schedules, so our goal is to tell the stories we want to tell -- not to fill 50 minutes specifically. (I should also point out that the original broadcast TOS episodes didn't have as consistent running times as many people think, and in syndication they are all cut down to about 40 minutes.) If we fill 50 minutes, great. If we don't, we don't mind. If we go longer, we don't mind.
In fact, we CUT material out of the final version of this episode. Not a lot, but a bit. There's an Uhura/Smith conversation that was removed; and while it would have addressed some of the things you guys are suggesting, it was universally agreed that it bogged down the pace and structure that we were going for with this particular story, and felt like padding. So we removed it.
Again, you're free to disagree, but please don't assume that not enough thought went into these decisions. I assure you they were VERY thoughtful.
Thanks guys! And again, thanks for watching!
First of all, thank you SO MUCH for all your interest in the episode. I don't want to get into a back-and-forth, but I did want to make a comment here to clarify a couple things.
I want to assure you guys that the decisions made in this episode's script were strictly artistic ones. Obviously, people are free to disagree with our artistic choices, and I encourage that. But I also encourage you not to assume that, because the episode didn't do things perhaps the way you may have, that that means not enough thought went into the script.
In truth, the development period for this script was VERY long. It went through dozens of iterations between myself, Vic, and Marc Cushman our script consultant. Believe me, we fully considered and explored all the various possibilities, additions, changes, etc. that you guys are suggesting. We ultimately went with the script in its present form, again, as an artistic choice, not due to thoughtlessness.
For example, as feek61 points out above, we were not particularly concerned about running time. This, in fact, is one of the first directives Vic gave me when I joined the project. STC isn't beholden to network schedules, so our goal is to tell the stories we want to tell -- not to fill 50 minutes specifically. (I should also point out that the original broadcast TOS episodes didn't have as consistent running times as many people think, and in syndication they are all cut down to about 40 minutes.) If we fill 50 minutes, great. If we don't, we don't mind. If we go longer, we don't mind.
In fact, we CUT material out of the final version of this episode. Not a lot, but a bit. There's an Uhura/Smith conversation that was removed; and while it would have addressed some of the things you guys are suggesting, it was universally agreed that it bogged down the pace and structure that we were going for with this particular story, and felt like padding. So we removed it.
Again, you're free to disagree, but please don't assume that not enough thought went into these decisions. I assure you they were VERY thoughtful.
Thanks guys! And again, thanks for watching!
doubleohfive
Fleet Admiral
Hey everyone,
First of all, thank you SO MUCH for all your interest in the episode. I don't want to get into a back-and-forth, but I did want to make a comment here to clarify a couple things.
I want to assure you guys that the decisions made in this episode's script were strictly artistic ones. Obviously, people are free to disagree with our artistic choices, and I encourage that. But I also encourage you not to assume that, because the episode didn't do things perhaps the way you may have, that that means not enough thought went into the script.
In truth, the development period for this script was VERY long. It went through dozens of iterations between myself, Vic, and Marc Cushman our script consultant. Believe me, we fully considered and explored all the various possibilities, additions, changes, etc. that you guys are suggesting. We ultimately went with the script in its present form, again, as an artistic choice, not due to thoughtlessness.
For example, as feek61 points out above, we were not particularly concerned about running time. This, in fact, is one of the first directives Vic gave me when I joined the project. STC isn't beholden to network schedules, so our goal is to tell the stories we want to tell -- not to fill 50 minutes specifically. (I should also point out that the original broadcast TOS episodes didn't have as consistent running times as many people think, and in syndication they are all cut down to about 40 minutes.) If we fill 50 minutes, great. If we don't, we don't mind. If we go longer, we don't mind.
In fact, we CUT material out of the final version of this episode. Not a lot, but a bit. There's an Uhura/Smith conversation that was removed; and while it would have addressed some of the things you guys are suggesting, it was universally agreed that it bogged down the pace and structure that we were going for with this particular story, and felt like padding. So we removed it.
Again, you're free to disagree, but please don't assume that not enough thought went into these decisions. I assure you they were VERY thoughtful.
Thanks guys! And again, thanks for watching!
Well said, especially the part in bold.
Also, welcome back to the board, James Kerwin!
Indeed, thank you for your comments JK! Glad to see you willing to discuss STC here on TrekBBS. Yet another "tally mark of good" for the STC/Farragut team!
I think you meant 42 minutes (the modern requirement of broadcast programming) compared to 51 (the requirement of 1966 era programming), but your point is well made even rounding to 40 and 50. Why not run short or run long, I say. A well-written novel isn't a specific number of pages. You could of course, "package" one of the vignettes (perhaps Happy Birthday Scotty) on a the end with a "Meanwhile back in the Prime Universe..." graphic.... but all in all, this was an enjoyable romp.
Oh, and in reading a previous poster's note about Uhura's and Smith's conversions to Spockism a bit unbelievable... perhaps Spock is more like his half-brother Sybok in the Mirror Universe! So, thus he should have set course (set sail!?) for Nimbus III! If there's a threequel mirror episode someday... let's see the Planet of Galactic Peace involved. 
If there's a threequel mirror episode someday... let's see the Planet of Galactic Peace involved. 
Again, you're free to disagree, but please don't assume that not enough thought went into these decisions. I assure you they were VERY thoughtful.
Thanks guys! And again, thanks for watching!
Thanks for coming here and posting!!
...and don't let these "critics" affect what you are doing whatsoever. STC is by far the best fan production ever.
Done with great attention to detail and it's obvious with a HUGE TOS heart.
BRAVO!!
Just keep on doin what you're doin.
Looking forward to your next creation and welcomed addition to the trek universe!
Thanks for chiming in, James. No carelessness was meant to be implied in my comments. Thanks for even making the episode.
Sure they did. Roughly 50 minutes when you leave off the next week's previews. The difference is usually less than a minute give or take. The Menagerie Part One was the shortest at about 49 minutes, possibly to make room for the extra 30 seconds for the "Next Week" trailer and the extended end credits.
The "40 minute syndication" cuts are more recent and closer to 43 minutes. They were 45 in the late 80's when Paramount started issuing pre-cut episodes. Before that, it was dependent on the stations. Some cut more than others. NYC cut about three minutes from each, but two Connecticut stations ran them uncut with previews attached. At 43 minutes, it's usually a combination of cuts and time compression.
Sure they did. Roughly 50 minutes when you leave off the next week's previews. The difference is usually less than a minute give or take. The Menagerie Part One was the shortest at about 49 minutes, possibly to make room for the extra 30 seconds for the "Next Week" trailer and the extended end credits.
The "40 minute syndication" cuts are more recent and closer to 43 minutes. They were 45 in the late 80's when Paramount started issuing pre-cut episodes. Before that, it was dependent on the stations. Some cut more than others. NYC cut about three minutes from each, but two Connecticut stations ran them uncut with previews attached. At 43 minutes, it's usually a combination of cuts and time compression.
WHAT critics? I haven't seen ANY critical reviews on their Facebook page and barely any on Trekmovie. I don't know of any other Trek discussion boards out there apart from this one, but it seems that only HERE are there any dissenting voices at all.
You would think TREK fans of all people would be more welcoming of opposing views and open exchanges of ideas. Not singling you out specifically, but I've seen a few other such comments out there...
I discuss Star Trek Continues on three different boards (including this one) as well as post comments and reviews on STC's Facebook page. The general consensus is overwhelmingly positive. In my review of each episode, including Episode 3, I have made criticisms (including on STC's Facebook page) but always couched in a fair minded way.
I have seen some occasional flaming or trolling type remarks, but they've been generally rare.
Anything put out for public consumption is open to criticism and if it's fair minded then there's nothing wrong with it. I do feel some remarks I've seen are undeserved as if they're holding a production to an impossible standard.
I also see nothing wrong with airing suggestions and aspirations for future productions. It's simply another way for folks to express their opinion and the producers can certainly ignore such things.
As far as I'm concerned STC has become simply another production that has sufficiently engaged my interest (no different than something on network television) and so I am motivated to express both positive and critical views but all aimed at hoping the production continues on what appears to be a positive direction. If I (or we) had only negative things to say then I wouldn't be watching or posting about it. I don't talk much (if at all) about other fan productions because they are off my radar due to lack of interest.
I will sum up my overall opinion of Star Trek Continues thus: like TOS it's not perfect, but they do far more right than what I think they get wrong occasionally. That makes it a huge win in my book.
I have seen some occasional flaming or trolling type remarks, but they've been generally rare.
Anything put out for public consumption is open to criticism and if it's fair minded then there's nothing wrong with it. I do feel some remarks I've seen are undeserved as if they're holding a production to an impossible standard.
I also see nothing wrong with airing suggestions and aspirations for future productions. It's simply another way for folks to express their opinion and the producers can certainly ignore such things.
As far as I'm concerned STC has become simply another production that has sufficiently engaged my interest (no different than something on network television) and so I am motivated to express both positive and critical views but all aimed at hoping the production continues on what appears to be a positive direction. If I (or we) had only negative things to say then I wouldn't be watching or posting about it. I don't talk much (if at all) about other fan productions because they are off my radar due to lack of interest.
I will sum up my overall opinion of Star Trek Continues thus: like TOS it's not perfect, but they do far more right than what I think they get wrong occasionally. That makes it a huge win in my book.
doubleohfive
Fleet Admiral
Meant to post this here and not in the Ep #4 speculation thread so I'll just re-paste for those not reading that thread:
Continues just posted this video on their Facebook page. The first of three "before and after" scenes from "Fairest of Them All," showcasing the original raw footage and cut of a scene vs. the final cut of the scene:
Continues just posted this video on their Facebook page. The first of three "before and after" scenes from "Fairest of Them All," showcasing the original raw footage and cut of a scene vs. the final cut of the scene:
Just encouraging them to continue their great work
That's cool. I dig the behind-the-scenes content these guys have been putting out.
I’ve seen this episode about three times now, with some time between each viewing to get a better feel for it.
Production values are obviously high, whether it’s the faithful ship sets, the props, costume re-creations or the final broadcast-ready HD footage. The latter is filled with rich, vibrant colours, as clearly evidenced within their before and after videos. Kudos to Matt Bucy for really superlative work.
Their FX shots are serviceable and unobtrusive here, true to what was created in the 60s and that’s fine, though I wish they would’ve offered at least ONE outstanding beauty shot this time around. I admit to getting a trifle giddy when I saw the classic phaser disintegration effect on the Vulcan bodyguard.
I liked the “Mirror” opening narration by Mignona, despite it having already been pioneered in Enterprise’s Mirror universe episodes. The marching drum beat was an inspired touch.
As has been already mentioned, Todd Haberkorn was finally given a decent chunk of script to bite into, and he didn’t drop the ball at all. Vic Mignona as Kirk was deliciously over the top, though he seemed to be channelling too many bits of Bad Kirk from The Enemy Within episode, as well as some already-familiar Kirk-isms (the hand-rubbing, “where’s mis-ter…Spock!”, among others).
This time around though, I feel the director didn’t get really great performances out of the bit actors. In fact, many of them give some some pretty cringe-inducing performances, even some of the non-speaking parts are more wooden than ironwood. A bit disappointing since there are many great performances in Lolani whether from Matthew Ewald, Young Boba Fett and the female security officer. BTW, it was annoying in Star Trek Excalibur’s vignette to repeatedly see the same redshirt lady in shot after shot, here the tall redhead who supposedly is a recast Lt. Palmer pops up 3 times.
Direction is solid for the most part aside from the obvious way they framed all the bridge scenes to hide the fact that there never was more than a handful of characters there (a comm officer, a helmsman and a security guy to keep a massive ship running only?) You would think something as serious as a mutiny would have the bridge and all corridors overrun with panicking crewmen as they struggle to take over/protect the most vital parts.
Storywise, I enjoyed many of the dialogue exchanges but especially the power struggle between Kirk and Spock, great chemistry between the two actors. But sorry to say, as far as sequels go Fairest of them all to me rates more as an equivalent to DS9’s Trials and Tribble-ations, a story more concerned with revisiting many of the parent episode’s greatest hits, rather than build from its foundation and branch out into new and bolder territory. Slap an agonizer on hapless transporter tech? Check…Chekov and the agony booth? Check…Tantalus field gadget used, or almost used against enemy? Check. For some odd reason it was felt cute to show the previously-mentioned bit with sick bay attendants betting on torture results from Mirror Mirror.
So that’s it? A concept as rife with possibilities of twisted customs and sick implements of pain, those have already been exhausted in the initial episode? So ‘’Fairest’’ is to be less like ALIENS, GODFATHER 2 and TERMINATOR 2, and more like The HANGOVER 2, the SCREAM follow-ups and ROCKY 2 as far as bold sequels go?
I echo what some have said, there should have been at least SOME overt treachery and more than just ONE death during this episode, it is just in these characters’ nature. As Prime Spock put it, the Mirror characters are “brutal, savage, unprincipled, uncivilized, treacherous” and it IS a part of their culture to assassinate superior officers to gain advancement. If all it took to sway a great majority of the ISS Enterprise was a short inspiring speech, then it should have been Prime Kirk at the end of Mirror Mirror to change their wicked ways, no?
No, as the great Gene Coon and especially Jerome Bixby established it, Kirk and the others were literally desperate to escape from the Mirror universe because it was to them as dangerous and life-threatening as Nazi-occupied Europe to Jews or 1850s Deep South to black slaves. Just look at Chekov’s evil grin when he tries to assassinate Kirk 4-on-1, Sulu with his goons in the sick bay or Spock’s crazed eyes and brutal blows as he fights his four opponents: they are bloodthirsty animals…At the very least, Mirror Uhura should have behaved like Prime Uhura did when she distracted Sulu at the helm console…
Still, Fairest of them all was entertaining and technically well made. But as good as the original episode? Come on…
Production values are obviously high, whether it’s the faithful ship sets, the props, costume re-creations or the final broadcast-ready HD footage. The latter is filled with rich, vibrant colours, as clearly evidenced within their before and after videos. Kudos to Matt Bucy for really superlative work.
Their FX shots are serviceable and unobtrusive here, true to what was created in the 60s and that’s fine, though I wish they would’ve offered at least ONE outstanding beauty shot this time around. I admit to getting a trifle giddy when I saw the classic phaser disintegration effect on the Vulcan bodyguard.
I liked the “Mirror” opening narration by Mignona, despite it having already been pioneered in Enterprise’s Mirror universe episodes. The marching drum beat was an inspired touch.
As has been already mentioned, Todd Haberkorn was finally given a decent chunk of script to bite into, and he didn’t drop the ball at all. Vic Mignona as Kirk was deliciously over the top, though he seemed to be channelling too many bits of Bad Kirk from The Enemy Within episode, as well as some already-familiar Kirk-isms (the hand-rubbing, “where’s mis-ter…Spock!”, among others).
This time around though, I feel the director didn’t get really great performances out of the bit actors. In fact, many of them give some some pretty cringe-inducing performances, even some of the non-speaking parts are more wooden than ironwood. A bit disappointing since there are many great performances in Lolani whether from Matthew Ewald, Young Boba Fett and the female security officer. BTW, it was annoying in Star Trek Excalibur’s vignette to repeatedly see the same redshirt lady in shot after shot, here the tall redhead who supposedly is a recast Lt. Palmer pops up 3 times.
Direction is solid for the most part aside from the obvious way they framed all the bridge scenes to hide the fact that there never was more than a handful of characters there (a comm officer, a helmsman and a security guy to keep a massive ship running only?) You would think something as serious as a mutiny would have the bridge and all corridors overrun with panicking crewmen as they struggle to take over/protect the most vital parts.
Storywise, I enjoyed many of the dialogue exchanges but especially the power struggle between Kirk and Spock, great chemistry between the two actors. But sorry to say, as far as sequels go Fairest of them all to me rates more as an equivalent to DS9’s Trials and Tribble-ations, a story more concerned with revisiting many of the parent episode’s greatest hits, rather than build from its foundation and branch out into new and bolder territory. Slap an agonizer on hapless transporter tech? Check…Chekov and the agony booth? Check…Tantalus field gadget used, or almost used against enemy? Check. For some odd reason it was felt cute to show the previously-mentioned bit with sick bay attendants betting on torture results from Mirror Mirror.
So that’s it? A concept as rife with possibilities of twisted customs and sick implements of pain, those have already been exhausted in the initial episode? So ‘’Fairest’’ is to be less like ALIENS, GODFATHER 2 and TERMINATOR 2, and more like The HANGOVER 2, the SCREAM follow-ups and ROCKY 2 as far as bold sequels go?
I echo what some have said, there should have been at least SOME overt treachery and more than just ONE death during this episode, it is just in these characters’ nature. As Prime Spock put it, the Mirror characters are “brutal, savage, unprincipled, uncivilized, treacherous” and it IS a part of their culture to assassinate superior officers to gain advancement. If all it took to sway a great majority of the ISS Enterprise was a short inspiring speech, then it should have been Prime Kirk at the end of Mirror Mirror to change their wicked ways, no?
No, as the great Gene Coon and especially Jerome Bixby established it, Kirk and the others were literally desperate to escape from the Mirror universe because it was to them as dangerous and life-threatening as Nazi-occupied Europe to Jews or 1850s Deep South to black slaves. Just look at Chekov’s evil grin when he tries to assassinate Kirk 4-on-1, Sulu with his goons in the sick bay or Spock’s crazed eyes and brutal blows as he fights his four opponents: they are bloodthirsty animals…At the very least, Mirror Uhura should have behaved like Prime Uhura did when she distracted Sulu at the helm console…
Still, Fairest of them all was entertaining and technically well made. But as good as the original episode? Come on…
Last edited:
Similar threads
