Spoilers STAR TREK BEYOND

[BillJ]

Lets not forget that the Romulans dumped B-4 on pre-warp Kolarus III to lure the Enterprise there. (See: Star Trek: Nemesis) Also, that the Duras sisters and a ship full of Klingons had no issue with Dr. Soran destroying the Veridian star and wiping out a pre-warp civilization. (See: Star Trek : Generations)

 

[wayoung]

Lets not forget that the Romulans dumped B-4 on pre-warp Kolarus II to lure the Enterprise there. (See: Star Trek: Nemesis)

Don't worry, the Federation fixed that by shooting the natives up with laser turrets on dune buggies. Prime Directive maintained!

 

[Rahul]

People seem to forget TOS simply didn't show that many other warp-capable species on the same technology level as humans. That came more with the later series.

One thing was universal though: All warp capable species suspiciously never interfered with pre-warp civilisations, or generally interfered into internal affairs of other species. And everytime they did do, it was the reason for grave conflict, that was often resolved through treaties.

Other species probably don't put that much emphasis on non-interference like the Federation. But they did it. At least officially. If they were strong-armed into it doesn't matter. They didn't interfere in the open. You couldn't name one single example that defies this.

 

[Rahul]

Don't worry, the Federation fixed that by shooting the natives up with laser turrets on dune buggies. Prime Directive maintained!

1) I like that comment.

2) It still proves the original point though: The PD is not a "don't touch, visit or look at anything"-rule, but rather an "anti-Colonialism"-understanding. Hiding technology on a planet certainly goes against that - that's why Picard retrieved the android. But no player here openly interfered with affairs of the native species. They tried to escape as fast (and as alive) as possible, and taking all suspicious stuff with them.

 

[BillJ]

You couldn't name one single example that defies this.

I just named two.

 

[Rahul]

I just named two.

No.

 

[Rahul]

People seem to forget TOS simply didn't show that many other warp-capable species on the same technology level as humans. That came more with the later series.

One thing was universal though: All warp capable species suspiciously never interfered with pre-warp civilisations, or generally interfered into internal affairs of other species. And everytime they did do, it was the reason for grave conflict, that was often resolved through treaties.

Other species probably don't put that much emphasis on non-interference like the Federation. But they did it. At least officially. If they were strong-armed into it doesn't matter. They didn't interfere in the open. You couldn't name one single example that defies this.

All your examples fall under this clause. (the Organian conflict was resolved into the Organian treaty - which obviously included some non-interference clause, and the B4 was not an "open" interference but a secret violation that demanded investigation).

Not a single example of your vague concept of other species defying the Prime Directive whenever they feel like. Not one. In 800+ hours of television and movies. Might there be a reason for that...? One that is often specifically stated, and has many episodes centered around it...?

 

[BillJ]

They didn't interfere in the open.

I do wonder why you think this is important? What we do when we don't think we will get caught is usually more indicative of who we are and how we feel about things.

 

[Rahul]

I do wonder why you think this is important? What we do when we don't think we will get caught is usually more indicative of who we are and how we feel about things.

This is VERY important: It shows the other species aren't allowed to do so. It shows whenever they do this kind of stuff, they're doing something illegal. That STRONGLY implies there is a legal framework - treaties, directives, or other - that forbids species from interfering in other species stuff. Otherwise why hide that?
That's why whenever they do it - remember, they are the bad guys - they are doing something illegal. Which - again - proves my point that there are rules they are violating with their action.

 

[BillJ]

This is VERY important: It shows the other species aren't allowed to do so. It shows whenever they do this kind of stuff, they're doing something illegal. That STRONGLY implies there is a legal framework - treaties, directives, or other - that forbids species from interfering in other species stuff. Otherwise why hide that?
That's why whenever they do it - remember, they are the bad guys - they are doing something illegal. Which - again - proves my point that there are rules they are violating with their action.

Actually, it proves no such thing. Because everytime we see them, it is in relation to their relationship with the UFP. Just because I've only seen your living room, doesn't mean that is the entirety of your home.

But...

We've seen the Klingons as open invaders.
We have situations where they are openly working with native cultures. On Neural, they aren't hiding who they are from the native population.
We've continued to watch them openly violate treaties where it suits their purposes.
We watched them have no issue with destroying a pre-warp civilization as collateral damage to their goals.

How many open actions do they have to take to prove that they don't subscribe to the Prime Directive?

 

[Rahul]

We've seen the Klingons as open invaders.

Which always was a violation of a treaty. Proving again: There are those treaties.

We have situations where they are openly working with native cultures. On Neural, they aren't hiding who they are from the native population.

Not to the native population. But to all other space-faring species. Proving again - there is a non-interference treaty betweeen warp-capable species.

We've continued to watch them openly violate treaties where it suits their purposes.

Yep. They are the bad-guys. But it again proves my point: There are treaties forbidding that stuff. Which they are violating.

We watched them have no issue with destroying a pre-warp civilization as collateral damage to their goals.

Examples?
They sure as hell have no issues - they are the bad-guys. But even they know what they do is illegal. Because of non-interference treaties.

How many open actions do they have to take to prove that they don't subscribe to the Prime Directive?

Oh, I absolutely give you that the klingons don't LIKE the PD. They probably hate it, and try everything to undermine it, and think it is a bad thing that's stopping their Empire from becoming great again.

Doesn't disprove the point they HAVE those non-interference rules though. Pretty sure not because of moral obligation. But because they were strong-armed into them, either by the Organians or other warp-capable civilisations like the Federation or the pre-Fed Vulcans.

I surely don't know the specifics. But they have them. At least officially. Probably because they are part of intergalactic treaties for all warp capable species in the Alpha quadrant.

 

[Grendelsbayne]

All your examples fall under this clause. (the Organian conflict was resolved into the Organian treaty - which obviously included some non-interference clause, and the B4 was not an "open" interference but a secret violation that demanded investigation).

Not a single example of your vague concept of other species defying the Prime Directive whenever they feel like. Not one. In 800+ hours of television and movies. Might there be a reason for that...? One that is often specifically stated, and has many episodes centered around it...?

You should really tone done the hyperbole here. Or have you forgotten the Cardassian history of open occupation (which the Federation couldn't do anything about, so it can't have been 'illegal' by any common treaty)? Also, the Ferengi's love of exploitation (the less knowledgeable the customer the better).

And really, your entire argument for the Klingons and the Romulans rests on us not having *Seen* them conquer any non-warp capable species, but that's a ridiculous piece of evidence. The number of episodes that actually showed the Klingons or Romulans relationships to non-warp capable species is so small that the sample size is completely meaningless. Meanwhile, every single aspect of Klingon and Romulan culture indicates that they would not care at all about interfering with lesser species and the Romulans are actually even shown to have enslaved an entire species.

 

[wayoung]

No popcorn emoticons? Really trekbbs?

 

[Rahul]

You should really tone done the hyperbole here. Or have you forgotten the Cardassian history of open occupation (which the Federation couldn't do anything about, so it can't have been 'illegal' by any common treaty)? Also, the Ferengi's love of exploitation (the less knowledgeable the customer the better).

Well, there was a war because of that... that seems to look like it just might have been a violation of a treaty?

And really, your entire argument for the Klingons and the Romulans rests on us not having *Seen* them conquer any non-warp capable species, but that's a ridiculous piece of evidence. The number of episodes that actually showed the Klingons or Romulans relationships to non-warp capable species is so small that the sample size is completely meaningless.

Oh. So ALL OF THE SAMPLE SIZE of Klingons, Vulcans and Romulans on screen isn't enough? Well, I guess the point is settled, then...

Meanwhile, every single aspect of Klingon and Romulan culture indicates that they would not care at all about interfering with lesser species and the Romulans are actually even shown to have enslaved an entire species.

I give you this: They are really unhappy with the non-interference clause. That's why they try to (illegally) undermine it at every occasion they could. But again: It is there. Not because of their own will. But rather enforced by others, via treaties like the one on Organia. But it's there.

 

[Grendelsbayne]

Well, there was a war because of that... that seems to look like it just might have been a violation of a treaty?

There was not a war because of it. There was a war for territory between the Federation and Cardassians which somehow never managed to involve Bajor at all, despite the Bajoran exiles begging for Federation interference.

Oh. So ALL OF THE SAMPLE SIZE of Klingons, Vulcans and Romulans on screen isn't enough? Well, I guess the point is settled, then...

No one disputed the Vulcans. And ALL of the sample size of Klingons and Romulans has practically nothing to do with this question. 99% of Klingon and Romulan appearances don't involve third party races AT ALL. Almost all the remaining examples involve third parties who are caught between the Klingons/Romulans and the Federation, which do not tell us anything about the normal operations of the Klingons or Romulans.

How many examples can you even name of the Klingons or Romulans having any relationship at all with a minor planet outside of the handful of worlds the Klingons and Feds were fighting over in TOS? You can't make a judgement about how someone treats other people if you never see that person with other people.

 

[Tuskin38]

How would all of you had felt if they made the Franklin an actual NX Class, not a new older design?

 

[F. King Daniel]

How would all of you had felt if they made the Franklin an actual NX Class, not a new older design?

While I doubt it'd have made much of a difference to the story, I really liked the look and feel of the ship we got, inside and out. The Enterprise uniforms look better than the drab grey Franklin ones, though.

 

[Rahul]

There was not a war because of it. There was a war for territory between the Federation and Cardassians which somehow never managed to involve Bajor at all, despite the Bajoran exiles begging for Federation interference.

We just don't know exactly. What we know is that the Cardassians were expansionist and invading other species, and that the Federation were at war with them.

What we DO know is also this: One of the corner stones of the peace treaty (with a lot of diplomatic soft power by the Federation) was that the Cardassians stopped their occupation of Bajor. Suggesting again that the non-interference clause is something at least the Federation forces upon others.

No one disputed the Vulcans. And ALL of the sample size of Klingons and Romulans has practically nothing to do with this question. 99% of Klingon and Romulan appearances don't involve third party races AT ALL. Almost all the remaining examples involve third parties who are caught between the Klingons/Romulans and the Federation, which do not tell us anything about the normal operations of the Klingons or Romulans.

How many examples can you even name of the Klingons or Romulans having any relationship at all with a minor planet outside of the handful of worlds the Klingons and Feds were fighting over in TOS? You can't make a judgement about how someone treats other people if you never see that person with other people.

Considering the Romulans and Klingons all have warp drive, they would have access to all those pre-warp planets the various Enterprises visited. And they were never contaminated by them. Not once! After such a big sample size of untouched civilisations (and NEVER a contamination without diplomatic consequences like war) it's pretty obvious that all those other species don't really mess with pre-warp civilisations either. And I just don't believe they do it because of good-will.


This seems like the space UN doesn't allow for species to invade other species, mess in their internal affairs, or generally make contact with pre-warp civilisations.

Some bad guys don't like that and often break that rule (klingons secretly messing with pre-warp civilisations, Cardassians occupying other species, Russians invading Ukraine), which has diplomatic consequences (war, sanctions, whatever), but also has the side effect that the good guys also aren't allowed to interfere, even though it would be the only way to help those people from extinction.

 

[Rahul]

How would all of you had felt if they made the Franklin an actual NX Class, not a new older design?

Honestly I LOVE the Franklin-design, and would be seriously sad if we were never allowed to see it.

Also, it helps to distinguish the movie-universe (Kelvin-U) from the prime-Universe, where it (like white Khan) shows a common history, but with subtle differences already pre-Nero-interference. Considering we will get sequels in both universes (DIS in prime, and ST4 in Kelvin), I'm all the more for (subtle!) signs of differentiating the two. Small enough that casual audiences don't care and with both being visibly "Star Trek" for all viewers, but big enough for us nerds to notice.

 

[BillJ]

How would all of you had felt if they made the Franklin an actual NX Class, not a new older design?

Wouldn't have much mattered to me.