Spoilers STAR TREK BEYOND

I don't think white Khan was due to historical differences in the time lines. That was always an odd conclusion to me.

Other than that, I agree with the comments on the Franklin design as well as interesting more subtle differences between the two time lines.

 

Didn't the Countdown to Darkness comic say that Khan underwent plastic surgery to change his looks so he could better blend in as an agent for Admiral Marcus?

 

Yes they did. Which, even before that, my take on Khan's line:

To mean that Khan was reconstructed by Marcus to prevent identification. Given that in the Prime Universe Kirk identified Khan via pictures from historical records, that seems like a reasonable precaution.

 

It is a great story but like that other episode it left me feeling rather moody in regards to what happened in the episode... It was a fantastic episode.

 

Because the presense of dune buggies would not have in any way affected their culture... It's not like a starship landing on their world now is it?

 

What about the phasers or the Klingons or humans, since they would be extraterrestrials to that world? No issues there?

 

Pobably...... Any exposure of technology like that to a pre warp culture is a violation of the PD isn't it? Any exposure?

I mean the natives could then say they "cast lightning from their hands" and make them gods.

 

The Invasion and occupation of Raatooras in the 22nd century.
The invasion of Organia in the 23rd century
The pre-emptive invasion of Cardassia in the 24th century

 

There you have it: The Prime Directive is something the Federation TRIES to impose on others.

Which is why the Battle of Organia is an example of Klingon aggression: because BEFORE the Organian Treaty, there was absolutely nothing to stop them from invading anyone they wanted any time they wanted and the Federation having no way to stop them. A hundred years later, the Khitomer Accords apparently include similar stipulations, which the Klingons then withdrew from, rendering the accords moot. Without a treaty between the Klingons and the Federation, they were again free to pillage and plunder as they saw fit.

So it's not a Klingon rule, or anyone else's rule. It's the Federation's rule, and they are sometimes really annoying in how they force others to observe it.

1) How would you know? Their interference on Neural was covert enough that nobody would have known they were even involved if Kirk hadn't caught on. Same again for their relationship with the Capellans, a pre-warp civilization that seemingly didn't give a fuck. Plus all the mindlessly xenophobic aliens we encounter on a weekly basis, it wouldn't be surprising if it turned out they were suspicious of outsiders since the Klingons started raiding them and stealing their resources.

2) WHY would the Klingons even interfere? On neural it seemed to be mainly an attempt to colonize in Federation space without getting caught. But in most other worlds, if those planets have something they wanted, they'd just come and TAKE it. It's not like the locals could stop them. Interfering in their culture would be collateral damage at best, unless they decided to conquer and occupy the planet. But conquering a planet can be called "interference" like blowing up a building could be called "vandalism."

If you're talking about TOS, that's not that big a sample. For one thing, MOST of the pre-warp civilizations in TOS are already familiar with the existence of aliens and/or have already been interfered with by Earth. The Eminians and the Capellans, as an excellent example; the former, lacking space ships of their own, clearly already know about starships and the Federation and have resources the Federation wants. The Capellans, lacking all but the most rudimentary technology, have been contacted by both Starfleet AND the Klingons at different times and are familiar enough with the Klingons to think they're more similar to them than to Sarfleet. The Halcyns in "Mirror, Mirror" refuse to give Starfleet access to their dilithium mining rights because they assume Starfleet to be potentially warlike (bad experience with aliens?)

So that basically leaves the people of Val (whose automated defense system would have probably destroyed the first Klingon ship to enter orbit), John Gil's space nazis, and Omega. In the last case, any Klingon attempt to colonize Omega would have probably ended the same way as it did for the Exeter and the Yangs -- after suffering appalling casualties -- would have beaten the survivors to death with big rocks.

Exactly. And the Klingons aren't part of the space U.N., and can only be stopped from doing so in territory the space U.N. controls. Ditto for the Romulans, the Ferengi, the Cardassians, etc.

 

It was titled simply 'Khan' - Countdown to Darkness was the Capt April story. maybe we should've seen the finding the Botany Bay/face change thing happen in flashback like Spocks flashback in ST09.

 

Yeah, they are. Not willingly (and not as part of an "organized" UN), but through a number of treaties and relationships with other species.

The fact that they never do open colonialism without serious repercussions (like "war"), but instead sneak attacks where they hope their meddling isn't noticed is pretty much proof of that. Or is your argument really: "they could do open colonialism anytime if they wanted, but decided they just don't feel like it during the entirety of Star Trek" as your argument #2 suggests...?

 

Do you have a quote for that, because I don't recall anything about it having anything to do with the Cardassian peace treaty and Memory Alpha only seems to have this to offer:

"The Federation refused to become involved in ending the Occupation, regarding it as an internal political matter and therefore covered by the Prime Directive, despite the fact that they themselves had been at war with the Cardassians for much of the latter half of the Occupation. (TNG: "Ensign Ro")" - Funny how the Federation's normally ok with ENDING prime directive violations, yet they labeled any interference in the occupation as a PD in and of itself...

"After fifty years of occupation, the Cardassians withdrew from Bajor in 2369. The exact cause of the withdrawal is largely a matter of opinion; while the Bajorans attributed it to the efforts of the Bajoran Resistance, the Cardassians regarded it as an entirely political decision. In the days leading up to the withdraw, the Cardassians diverted warships away from Bajor in an attempt to annex Minos Korva, a disputed planet near the Cardassian-Federation border. (TNG: "Chain of Command, Part I") After a round of tense diplomatic negotiations, Captain Edward Jellico dealt the Cardassians a humbling defeat at the McAllister C-5 Nebula. Under Jellico's terms of surrender, all of the ships were forced to eject their primary phaser coil, effectively rendering their ships defenceless. (TNG: "Chain of Command, Part II") Regardless of the cause, all sides acknowledge that civilian leaders such as those on the Detapa Council made the decision, which was opposed by the Cardassian military. Gul Dukat in particular remained intent on reconquering Bajor for over five years. (DS9: "Duet", "Cardassians", "Call to Arms")." - So, if this is accurate, then, at best, a divided Cardassian govt. made a political decision to withdraw from Bajor as a part of trying to step back from wartime footing after a crushing defeat. Which has nothing to do with treaties forcing them to withdraw because the Bajoran occupation was ever considered illegal by anyone (other than the Bajorans).

As already pointed out by others, you're overinflating the number of planets involved and massively overstating the 'evidence' that they really haven't interefered in any of those planets.

It's also worth pointing out that your argument is based on another ridiculous assumption: that the planets we've seen on the show are necessarily the planets that the Klingons and Romulans would be most interested in interfering with. Space is huge and the Federation is not everywhere (certainly the Enterprise isn't, despite the whole only ship in the sector thing). They could've devastated thousands of pre-warp civilizations without Enterprise or the Federation ever hearing a thing about it.

In reference ot the Romulans in particular, we actually know of two huge gaps of time in which they had almost no activity anywhere near the Federation and during which the Federation has no idea what the Romulan Empire was doing. But we as the audience know that the Romulan Commander was a veteran of hundreds of campaigns before his ship was ordered to test the Federation, so they certainly weren't sitting at home knitting. I believe the second Romulan absence was also explained with a statement along the lines of 'our attention has been elsewhere', which also suggests some kind of significant activity far away from the Federation.

 

Then to the extent the Klingons chose to honor any treaty that includes a non-interference clause, they are limited by their obligations to the FEDERATION.

But that, again, is a Federation law the Klingons chose to honor; it isn't a Klingon law they would still honor if nobody else cared, or if (in the case of Cardassia) they stopped giving a fuck what the Federation thought.

Yes they do. That's EXACTLY what the Treaty of Organia was all about. And it was the Organians -- NOT the Federation -- that stopped them from doing so. You may recall that at that point the Klingons had no choice but to agree to those terms or else the Ayelborn would have neutralized their entire fleet and left them twisting in the solar winds. You'd be surprised the kinds of things a colonialist/expansionist empire will agree to when a galaxy-spanning godlike intelligence puts a cosmic gun to their heads.

No, my argument is "they DID do open colonialism until 'Errand of Mercy' and then started up again in 'Way of the Warrior Pt1'." We're also aware of at least one alternate universe in which the Klingons' open colonialism lead to 22 years of war with the Federation, a war the Klingons were apparently winning.

And even if, against all logic, you don't recognize Klingon colonialism for what it is, ROMULAN colonialism is not in question. Not just the backing of Duras, but also the attempted proxy assassination of the governor of Krios, the attacks on Narendra-III and Khitomer, and whatever it is they did that really pissed off the Breen prior to DS9.

 

A side note: "The Mind's Eye" is truly one of TNG's great episodes. I really wish we would've gotten more like it.

 

Again, if "overinflating the planets involved" and "overstating the evidence" captures ALL OF PLANETS and ALL OF EVIDENCE involved, that's a pretty sound argument. Why don't you post some evidence on your own where their meddling wasn't an obvious illegal, secret undertaking or answered with extreme repercussions for being an obvious crime and violation of a treaty...?


@Crazy Eddie:
I guess our differences are only about semantics at this point. You're absolutely right that the klingons/Romulans (at least their military leadership) isn't a fan of these rules and most likely didn't regulate themselves with them. I never said so btw. But they still (at least "officially") adhere to these rules, as a result of treaties with the Federation or pre-Federation Vulcans or others. It's most likely not their "prime" directive but rather some nasty, unliked regulation. So you're right when you say they aren't of klingon origin. Nevertheless they are (most of the time - except during wars over this very issue) in effect, even (or especially) for those aggressive races.

 

It's easily in my top ten favs.

 

That's just it, I don't think they adhere to the rule beyond the context of the treaty itself. There are CERTAIN planets they cannot interfere with under the terms of a treaty, but planets not covered in those agreements are basically fair game.

The Khitomer Accords probably limit Klingon expansion to a greater extent than most other treaties, but I suspect that has more to do with location: most of the places the Klingons MIGHT expand to are already claimed by people who are part of the treaty.

It may be a matter of semantics, but it's more like we're tripping over the definition of "directives" and "laws." The Federation has a list of things they insist their neighbors should not do, but they can't actually pass laws that carry enforceable punishments against them.

This was basically the situation on Neural, in a way. If not for the treaty, the Klingons would have just INVADED the planet and conquered it for the empire. The Federation has claims on that planet too, though (in various ways it seems), so they would have considered this an act of war. Covert interference is their way of getting around the treaty, but if they had their way -- and if it wasn't for the Organians threatening to neuter their entire fleet -- they'd just as soon fight for it.

 

I'm thinking the comic was written afterwards to explain it. I don't think the writers on the movie really cared.

 

Orci was one of the head writers behind the comic.

 

Shouldn't matter if they cared. The dialogue ("John Harrison was a fiction created by Marcus" or something similar) is all the information we NEED. Despite the (generally advisable) adage of "show, don't tell", films do not have to show every single thing to the audience (which would strongly indicate the filmmakers think the audience is STOOPID!!1!1!!!!!1). Most viewers wouldn't care (probably a majority of them--whether Trek fans like it or not--had not watched either TWOK or Space Seed). Those who would bother to make the connection to either version of Khan (not all that consistently portrayed, visually, anyway) have surely consumed enough sci-fi to have the ability to deduce from "Harrison was a fiction created" a physical transformation to hide his natural appearance. There are any number of examples of such transformations already established in Trek (Arne Darvin, the Klingon surgically altered to appear human, Kirk's temporary transformation into the appearance of a Romulan (as that of Picard), Riker's change of appearance for the under cover mission of a first contact situation (can't remember the episode name), Troi's alteration to appear Romulan as an undercover agent...). The fact the movie was not quite as explicit as the episodes in giving us an "info dump" moment of dialogue, stating the obvious, should be held in its favour, not criticized. I rather enjoy it when filmmakers (TV writers, novelists, etc.) presume I'm intelligent enough to work out something plausible rather than presuming I lack such skills and need to be spoon-fed. There are elements of the "reveal" that could have been more smoothly handled (the pause after "My name is Khan!" was overdone, for example, but that's a rather minor quibble). But omitting a five minute sidebar to address his altered appearance is not among the film's storytelling weaknesses. It is a strength.