I think it's more of a speciesism, specifically. And I don't think it manifested until Kruge killed his son. I think TUC shows him working through and overcoming those base instincts.
Spoilers STAR TREK BEYOND
- Thread starter Khan 2.0
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Yeah. I remember Nick Meyer saying something about Kirk's hardliner position in TUC.
I actually like the way Kirk is played in The Undiscovered Country. Even the best of us have our demons, also wasn't there something cut out of the script that had a colony attacked by the Klingons and Carol Marcus killed?
"Balance of Terror" didn't involve the Klingons. Besides, throughout TOS, the Klingons were always the "other," the evil empire, the villains. I thought VI's took that to the logical conclusion and Kirk's position made sense (he even admits that them killing his son was a factor in it).
I'd have to disagree. That is an interesting point, though. The movies did deconstruct Kirk from the larger than life hero that watching TOS would have you believe he was and showed that he was a much more flawed person. However, they also reconstruct it by showing that he's willing to aspire to improve and that his faults don't outweigh the good he has done.
I think that was added in the novelization. (I recall reading a review that offered the opinion that the novelist was trying to offer an escape hatch for the TOS crew being esp. hostile to the Klingons, rather than letting them remain more complex characters.)
You are probably right. Though, I have no problem with how Kirk is portrayed in TUC even without that bit. They were in a thirty-year cold war with the Klingons (I'm sure with the propaganda to match). It would eventually beat down even the best of us.
Yup, 6 had most of them acting out of character, poorly twisted around to suit the poor Soviet Collapse Lite storyline. It's sad that they had to do that, for a film that's aged very badly on top of that.
I liked how Kirk acted in TUC. That's exactly how I'd feel and act had my son been killed in a previous encounter with that species. I can understand the feelings, and for me made Kirk seem more fleshed out as a character.
I tend to agree. TUC is one of my favorite films and the overall fear of peace can drive people to irrational behavior. It's easy to see someone as an enemy but not always easy to change that point of view. I think TUC illustrates that quite well. It takes the films events for Kirk to recognize his own flaws, and the fears that underlay them.
IIRC, Carol wasn't killed, but was badly injured and hospitalized. The Klingon attack was specifically Chang's BOP, firing while cloaked, and decloaking after the attack to show the survivors who had done this to them.
There was a little scene in TFF where Bones says to Kirk 'we're bound to bump into the Klingons - and they don't exactly like you' Kirk replies 'The feeling's mutual' so I never found Kirk's attitude to them in TUC jarring at all, it just seemed like the conclusion of a long cold war with them combined with the fact they were responsible for the murder of his son. I don't think most people would have behaved that differently in Kirk's shoes at his age.
^The attiude exists in real life, there is an (admittedly dwindling) generation of elderly British people who try to avoid German and Japanese products. Understandable, considering what they went through 70 years ago, but there comes a point where you have to let go.
Most people will not just "let it go" without some sort of intervention, either counseling or actively working with that community after the fact.
Which Kirk did at the end of the film, with his talk with Spock in Spock's quarters, bringing the arc to a nice close.
I believe it was Azetber (sp) that restored his faith, I think she played the role of the bigger person better than Kirk did. She could have disbanded the peace process and avenge her father with the whole Federation
Yeah you're right - I guess I'm referring to Kirk verbalising his acceptance of his failings with Spock, that was the scene that stuck in my mind, but, yes the very end of the film 'you've restored my father's faith...etc'
I agree. More to my point was that something like that is not just "let go" by individuals. It requires a process, which Kirk went through, both in discovering that not all Klingons were his enemies, and uncovering the lengths people would go to maintain their hatred and fear.
But it featured racism, and Kirk's opinion of it. He's smarter than judging an entire people based on the actions of a few - and as shown at the end of STV, he has no serious animosity toward Klingons who spent the whole movie hunting him!
Because he had already won. He was in his safe space and his crew were safe. He could afford to be diplomatic in that particular situation.
A.) Someone can objectively know something to be wrong but struggle with it in other cases, B.) we need to observe Kirk's interactions with Klingons, not Romulans, to examine ST VI (and I think that they're consistent in that regard, and C.) everyone has prejudices.
This was also before the announcement of the peace conference, which was factor in Kirk's actions in the movie.
Kirk's words and actions in TUC are perfectly in line with Kirk's feelings towards Klingons as seen in "Errand of Mercy" and "A Private Little War". Especially if we take the events of TSFS into account.
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